The Moon Is Upsidedown Tonight ! Las Vegas, Nevada

reply to post by Dashdragon

Originally posted by CherubBaby
The comments you make about The moon being below the horizon in Stellarium are also false. If you can see the moon with the atmosphere and landscape not removed it means the moon is above the horizon. removing the atmosphere/landscape only allows the moon to be visible after it has set. But you already know this. To sum how do you view the moon in stellarium below the horizon?

The light from the moon is bent by the atmosphere, so even though it is below the horizon, you can still see it. The same bending also distorts the shape, as was discussed earlier.



The lower sun is the real one here. It's below the horizon. The upper sun is what the viewer sees. Looks like it is above the horizon, and is distorted.

www.atoptics.co.uk...

Density gradients in the atmosphere cause it to act like a lens. Rays bend towards the higher density. Higher density is associated with higher pressure and lower temperature so a useful guideline for atmospheric refraction or mirages is that rays bend towards higher pressure and to cooler air.

Incoming rays from the Sun curve downwards so that it appears higher in the sky than it really is. The Moon and stars and the whole sky are similarly raised and astronomical observations are routinely corrected for "atmospheric refraction".

The effect is small except near to the horizon when the rays are literally bent a little around the curve of the Earth. When the lower limb of the Sun just touches the sea horizon the whole Sun has actually already set.

reply to post by Uncinus


Thats all fine to read and type but the point is the image I posted was from Stellarium and the moon was above the horizon, not below it.

He is a picture I took alst night once again from vegas. The cloud cover made getting a clear shot next to impossible. But I enlarged the image and here it is. 12-2-2011 below

Hey its another boat moon in Vegas

reply to post by CherubBaby


It LOOKED LIKE it was above the horizon. If you remove the atmosphere, then where did it look like it was?

Originally posted by CherubBaby
Hey its another boat moon in Vegas

At what angle does a boat moon stop being a boat moon?

reply to post by Uncinus


At an angle it no longer appears to be a boat.!!! That is unless you walk around with your head cocked sideways ...

reply to post by CherubBaby


And what angle is that for you? 30 degrees? 45?

Could you take a screenshot in Stellarium of a crescent moon that is the furthest tilted from horizontal, yet you would still consider a boat moon?

This was taken in Las Vegas 12/5/2011 just after midnight

So again the moon is exactly as science predicted it to be. All is well.

Originally posted by CherubBaby
reply to post by Uncinus

 

At an angle it no longer appears to be a boat.!!! That is unless you walk around with your head cocked sideways ...

It's funny you should mention walking around "with your head cocked sideways", because that's basically what is happening with people at the mid- to low-latitudes who can sometimes see the moon in a sideways orientation. It's because their heads are "cocked sideways" relative to a North-Pole-Up point of view.

Look at this image below. This image is the "North Pole Up" point-of-view of the solar system and the Earth-Moon system that we are all familiar with. This goes back to what 'ngchunter' said a few pages back regarding the "Polar Alignment". The Polar Alignment mentioned by ngchunter is this North Pole Up viewpoint that we are all used to seeing in textbooks.

It's hard to show in this 2-D picture, but imagine the Moon is beyond the Earth in the background, and the person is watching it set near the western horizon


With this "Polar Alignment" as shown above, the Moon has the familiar perfectly vertical orientation -- i.e., the terminator line is vertical. However, the only people on Earth that view the moon like this are near the North Pole (or the people who are at least close to the arctic circle), just like 'Person 1' in the picture.

The people at the mid-latitudes (Person 2) are basically standing "sideways" on the Earth, so their heads/eyes are at a different angle from the people at the pole -- and, thus, the angle by which they view the Moon will be more "sideways", and the Moon will appear tilted when it is not directly overhead.



This tilted view of the Moon can be seen better if we turn the Earth-Moon system so that we are now viewing the Moon as Person 2 at the mid-latitudes sees it (with his head "cocked sideways" relative to person 1, who is viewing it with a polar alignment). This is why the Moon appears tilted near the horizon when viewed by people at the mid-latitudes.

Again, it's hard to show in this 2-D picture below, but imagine the Moon is beyond the Earth in the background, and the person is watching it set near the western horizon:


So -- yeah. Cocking your head sideways will make a difference when viewing the Moon.

reply to post by Soylent Green Is People


At the North Pole, according to this link, the moon is above the horizon for 2 weeks straight and then below the horizon for 2 weeks straight. Never been there so don't know but that's what they say. Also certain phases, like the crescent are visible at certain times of year related to the seasons according to this link.

planetariumweb.madison.k12.wi.us...

Originally posted by luxordelphi
reply to post by Soylent Green Is People

 

At the North Pole, according to this link, the moon is above the horizon for 2 weeks straight and then below the horizon for 2 weeks straight. Never been there so don't know but that's what they say. Also certain phases, like the crescent are visible at certain times of year related to the seasons according to this link.

planetariumweb.madison.k12.wi.us...

You're kind of missing the point of why I showed a figure at the North Pole. Forget that the guy is actually watching where/when the Moon rises and sets from the North Pole. I was NOT trying to point out where the moon rises and sets for him.

I was pointing out that his head and his eyes are level with the familiar "North Pole Up" way of viewing the Earth-Moon system. My major point is the people at the mid-latitudes and the equator have their head and eyes cocked sideways compared to this familiar textbook way of imagining the Earth-Moon

The reason for the images was to show the orientation of the two figures relative to each other. One's idea of "level view" is not the same as the others. This is because one is standing more sideways on the Earth compared to the other -- so his idea of what constitutes a level or tilted moon will be different.

This all goes back to your comment about seeing the Moon differently with your head cocked sideways. Well, people at the mid latitudes DO have their head cocked sideways relative to the familiar "North Pole Up" model of the Earth-Moon.

reply to post by Soylent Green Is People


Hi...I got your point even though you weren't replying to me and I thought it was a cute point and that's why I wanted to add to it with some information about how the moon looks and doesn't look from the North Pole. Just for accuracy.

Originally posted by luxordelphi
reply to post by Soylent Green Is People

 

Hi...I got your point even though you weren't replying to me and I thought it was a cute point and that's why I wanted to add to it with some information about how the moon looks and doesn't look from the North Pole. Just for accuracy.

You're right. I knew I was responding to you when I started the post, but by the time I got to that last paragraph I forgot and thought I was responding to CherubBaby.

reply to post by Soylent Green Is People


I could talk about whatever you want to point out. I do respect your input and reasoning. But if that was the only issue , I would. But it's not.

The issue is simple . I haven't seen this happen throughout my life. The moon didn't set "Boat" throughout my life and if I am correct , you say it has. I disagree.

Originally posted by CherubBaby
The issue is simple . I haven't seen this happen throughout my life. The moon didn't set "Boat" throughout my life and if I am correct , you say it has. I disagree.

Your failure to notice it does not mean it did not happen. It simply means you weren't paying attention. I've noticed it for a long time now, as have many who pay closer attention to the skies than you have. I strongly urge you to attend a local public star party or sidewalk astronomy event. Many of the astronomers there have been watching the skies for decades and can confirm everything I'm telling you. The Las Vegas Astronomical Society, for instance, is having just such an event on January 28th at Red Rock Canyon Visitors Center.
www.lvastronomy.com...
Here's another club site that lists public viewings in Nevada you can attend:
www.astronomynv.org...
You should go, ask about the "boat moon" and then look through at least one polar aligned telescope and one altitude-azimuth scope, ideally with an identical type of optical system. Ask whoever's running the event to guide you to scopes matching that specification that are pointed at the moon.

Originally posted by CherubBaby
reply to post by Soylent Green Is People

 

I could talk about whatever you want to point out. I do respect your input and reasoning. But if that was the only issue , I would. But it's not.

The issue is simple . I haven't seen this happen throughout my life. The moon didn't set "Boat" throughout my life and if I am correct , you say it has. I disagree.

--- On one hand, I have the memories of you and a few others who don't remember seeing a boat Moon in the past.


--- On the other hand I have my own specific memory (being very interested in the sky as a child) that the Moon HAS looked "like a boat" in the past.

and

The Farmers Almanac saying it can look that way.

and

Folklore that talks about a Cheshire Moon or a "horns up" Moon.

and

All of the amateur astronomers who have said it can, and has, looked that way.

and

All of the professional astronomers who have said it can, and has, looked that way.


------------------


Even if I ignored the almanac, folklore and astronomers and went just by your memories -vs- my memories, our memories are not comparing apples to apples.

I am saying I specifically DO remember seeing a "boat Moon" on occasions when I was younger. I saw it and remember it. All you (and some others) are saying is that you DON'T remember seeing it that way. That is different. Perhaps on those occasions in the past that the Moon looked like a boat, you either weren't looking up, or it was not a memorable enough occasion for you to store that information away.

I hesitate to compare this situation exactly to the people who are suddenly surprised to find that the Moon can be sometimes seen at mid-day, because seeing this "boat Moon" at the mid-latitudes is more rare than being able to see the Moon during the day. However, this situation is similar in this respect: those people who have just recently noticed that the moon can be out at mid-day are just as adamant that they never remember seeing the Moon at mid-day before. Also, because they never remember that before, they also often say "something must be different/wrong".

Originally posted by CherubBaby
reply to post by Soylent Green Is People

 

I could talk about whatever you want to point out. I do respect your input and reasoning. But if that was the only issue , I would. But it's not.

The issue is simple . I haven't seen this happen throughout my life. The moon didn't set "Boat" throughout my life and if I am correct , you say it has. I disagree.

Why not try to contact some local astronomers in LV and get their opinion on it?

If they say what the majority is saying here, would that be enough for you? Or are they in on the shill as well?

As others have said, just because you haven't noticed it doesn't mean it hasn't been happening. And normal.