The Moon Is Upsidedown Tonight ! Las Vegas, Nevada

Ok thanks. People who read this thread can decide for themselves I guess. But I suggest everyone trust their own eyes and brain, than the encyclopedia. I mean, that's how the encyclopedia got so thick right? haha.

I just wanted to support the other side a little, because every thread is inundated by paid posters.

Again, there are smart people with a brain here, who stand their ground based on their personal experience.

Some call them crazy, I call them "people who have day jobs".

reply to post by moonweird


You keep saying "I know what I see" and we keep explaining:

1. WHY you see that, and

2. WHY it is not abnormal.


If you have any specific issues with either of our explanations, please tell us those specific issues.

We haven't been saying "The Moon is like that because I said so", and we don't expect you to say that either. We have explained why the Moon CAN look like a boat on occasion. Please explain specifically why the Moon CAN'T look like that.

Originally posted by moonweird
Ok thanks. People who read this thread can decide for themselves I guess. But I suggest everyone trust their own eyes and brain, than the encyclopedia. I mean, that's how the encyclopedia got so thick right? haha.

I just wanted to support the other side a little, because every thread is inundated by paid posters.

Again, there are smart people with a brain here, who stand their ground based on their personal experience.

Some call them crazy, I call them "people who have day jobs".

so explain to us why the moon should not look this way right now....explain to us how it should look due to the orientation to where the sun is to the moon....

during our new moon phase for the last several months now since spring, the boat moon has been observed. but this is not the first year this has happened, it all depends on where the sun sets and the moon sets.

so due to where the sun has been this past month shining more upwards to the moon then to the side....explain why we should not be seeing this boat moon and tell us what we should be seeing.

Originally posted by moonweird
But I suggest everyone trust their own eyes and brain, than the encyclopedia.

Your eyes and brain aren't particularly helpful if you haven't educated yourself about field rotation and about how the sky should appear to move over the course of the night from an altitude-azimuth perspective. If, however, you do educate yourself then you quickly realize while watching it that it's as it should be. It also helps if you can view the moon from a polar aligned perspective to compare the view.

I just wanted to support the other side a little, because every thread is inundated by paid posters.

I believe accusations of this nature are against the T&C's, particularly if you're unable to prove it. You insist that people like me are "paid to post" and that we're essentially just paid liars. I demand you prove your accusation. I would also suggest anyone who believes this defamation go to your nearest astronomy club's next outing or sidewalk astronomy event and take a look at the moon through a variety of telescopes. Ask the astronomers in charge of the event to direct you to someone who has a polar aligned telescope and someone else who has an altitude-azimuth aligned telescope, then compare the view you see through both telescopes, especially as the moon is setting or rising. If at all possible, compare the view through telescopes that are of the same type, just mounted differently (for instance, a polar aligned newtonian vs a dobsonian, or a schmidt-cassegrain on a wedge vs an altitude-azimuth aligned cassegrain) as this will avoid any confusion from the perspective difference of different types of optics.

Again, there are smart people with a brain here, who stand their ground based on their personal experience.

Yeah, like me.

reply to post by moonweird

......because every thread is inundated by paid posters.

Oh, really? Man, they've been holding out on me!!!

I want my check! Didn't know there was money in it when I provide my knowledge and opinion. Who do I contact to get paid??

Originally posted by LeoVirgo
so explain to us why the moon should not look this way right now....explain to us how it should look due to the orientation to where the sun is to the moon...

I have the same question.

For those people who don't think the crescent Moon should ever look tilted (as seen from the mid latitudes) while it is setting or rising on the horizon, please show or tell us how the crescent Moon SHOULD look on the horizon when it is rising or setting.


By the way, it isn't only the crescent moon that appears to tilt as it tracks across the sky. The full also Moon tilts, as seen starting at about the 1:20 mark in the below "Stellarium" video made by Uncinus (and posted a few pages back). However, the nightly tilt in crescent Moon is much more easy to see because of the shape. In the full moon, you need to watch the craters to notice the tilt.

Originally posted by Uncinus

(moon show 32x normal size)

[Uncinus' full post Here]

Ok this guy said this on page 6, and I thought everyone would just go "Oh yeah, he's right. haha. Welp thread closed."
But somehow we are on page 30?
Also, I've been reading ATS for a couple months now and I'm hooked. This is my first post.

Originally posted by ANOK

Originally posted by Illustronic

I think the major thing the internet has taught me is how stupid some people are lol. This thread is hilarious.

Even if the moon did turn upside down, it wouldn't change the way the sun lights it up. It would still look exactly the same. It's a sphere with light shining on it from one direction. The sun would have to be in the opposite plane, not the moon.

edit on 11/4/2011 by ANOK because: typo

edit on 21-11-2011 by Anon1151605 because: I accidently had my sentence "Also, I've been reading ATS for a couple months now and I'm hooked. This is my first post." Look like it was being quoted by his post

reply to post by Anon1151605


The title of the thread was a play on words. I have never said the moon is "Upsidedown" Litterally.I try to say things in a way that allows a simple, average person to be able to understand my point. I have already heard plenty of reasons from all the contributors/posters and my own reading etc. I agree with some of it but have a problem with some of it as well. I don't for a minute believe the moon has set boat ( or very close to it ) all of my life year after year month after month and now I am just starting to notice? HOGWASH !!! I have worked at night outside for years .. I have lived in the desert plains where there is no obstruction of view. I am not convinced that I am wrong.

reply to post by CherubBaby


Well, it hasn't "set boat" year after year. It sets all kinds of different way. But if you use Stellarium, you can see EXACTLY how it has set for any day in the past. Compare that to your recollections.

reply to post by Uncinus


It's not necessary to use Stellarium when the moon is right outside. I just go look at it. Why would you need a graphic to show you the moon when it's hard to miss in the sky? The Cheshire moon is always a startling sight unless, of course, you're on the equator.

Originally posted by luxordelphi
The Cheshire moon is always a startling sight unless, of course, you're on the equator.

And with that, 30 pages of thread down the drain. The snake has eaten its tail. This parrot has ceased to be.

Was it good for you?

reply to post by Illustronic

or the moon is actually a projected holographic image

Far more accurate than the other ideas currently.

Originally posted by CherubBaby
What I am saying is that the moon is displaying a characteristic at the 36th parallel that is only supposed to happen on the equator and 17 degrees above or below it. I am also saying since this is true then something must be perturbing the moons orbit or ours. Also I admit I am not 500 years old. My point in saying that is simple. Do you really have faith or confidence in trying to know what may be happening in this time we live in. Lets face it you , me we, are what 20 - 60 years in age approx? Do you think that 20 -60 years of age has any concept of the universe or the changes it may be going through? Get a grip. We are less that a grain of sand on a beach compared to the time and the changes that are to come and have taken place in this venue. I would suggest humbling ourselves. I don't want to argue anyone into my beliefs or speculations. But, my arguement is just as valid as anyones under the circumstances with the data available.

edit on 4-11-2011 by CherubBaby because: typo

Affecting our orbit? Well we haven't felt it. It should have produced more than a visual affect.

The holograph is more realistic about our universe, but even a small change in the moon would trigger ocean effects.

reply to post by Unity_99


A visual effect? I would say an equatorial moon is a good visual on the 36 north lat. Plus it's not always easy to see visually when there is so much junk in the air , so often above in the sky..

Originally posted by CherubBaby
reply to post by Unity_99

 

A visual effect? I would say an equatorial moon is a good visual on the 36 north lat. Plus it's not always easy to see visually when there is so much junk in the air , so often above in the sky..

The Equator (0°) was a full 20° south of the Moon's orbital plane when you took those pictures from Las Vegas. The Equator on the night side was NOT the point directly under the Moon.

The Earth's latitude that was directly under the Moon when you took those pictures was the 20° NORTH latitude, which was around Mexico City. This is because the earth is tilted on its axis.


Therefore, at Moon-rise on Nov 19, the Moon would have looked TILTED from the equator (0°), with the LEFT part of the Moon tilting about 20° below horizontal (as seen in this Stellarium screenshot):


While at the same time, the Moon as seen from Mexico City (20° N latitude) should be HORIZONTAL:


while from Las Vegas (36° N Lat.), which is 16° north of Mexico City and 36° north of of the equator, the moon would look TILTED with the RIGHT side of the moon dipping 16° below the horizontal:



All of these numbers make perfect sense when you consider that Mexico City at 20° N latitude -- NOT the equator -- that is directly aligned with the Moon's orbital plane this time of the year.

In fact, the equator at this time of the year, the equator would be Farther away from being directly aligned with the Moon's orbital plane than Las Vegas would on the night side of the Earth. Las Vegas would be 4° closer. That's why the moon-rise and moon-set tilt is greater at the equator right now than it would be from Las Vegas.



CherubBaby --

Please explain to me why you don't think the Moon as seen from Las Vegas should look tilted even though Las Vegas was closer to being directly under the moon's orbital plane than the equator was on those nights you photographed it -- and you don't seem to have a problem believing it could have looked tilted as seen from the equator.

Please, referencing the information I provided above, specifically tell me (a) what's wrong with the information provided above, and (b) why you think the Moon should not look tilted from Las Vegas

Again, don't just say "because it's 36° away from the equator", As I showed above, the equator was NOT the place the moon looked horizontal, because the equator (0°) is NOT the latitude directly aligned with the Moon.

reply to post by Soylent Green Is People


I have a simple answer for you. "At THIS Point, I don't trust anything but someones eye witness account with a pic and references.

Originally posted by CherubBaby
reply to post by Soylent Green Is People

 

I have a simple answer for you. "At THIS Point, I don't trust anything but someones eye witness account with a pic and references.

What do you mean eyewitness account? I believe you when you say the moon looked tilted. I never doubted that.

If someone says the moon looks tiled, I'm not here to tell them they are wrong -- I'm just trying tell them why it can be normal for it to look tilted.

--- or are you talking about "Stellarium"?

reply to post by Soylent Green Is People


I want you to know something fiirst. I truely respect you and your conclusions etc. But even more then that . You are possibly the only person that has ttalked to me in a decent way CONSISTANTLY while trying to contribute knowlege and opinion etc. I appreciate it but I don't stellarium at this point in time. I am not saying I can't be wrong. I will however make my conclusions based on my own research. I don't believe for a minute that I lived 45 years and never noticed the moon like this. I lived on the beach and worked on the coast , the desert, night surf fishing, deep sea fishing at night, Military service etc and I am not slow or without focus..

Originally posted by luxordelphi
reply to post by Uncinus

 

It's not necessary to use Stellarium when the moon is right outside. I just go look at it. Why would you need a graphic to show you the moon when it's hard to miss in the sky? The Cheshire moon is always a startling sight unless, of course, you're on the equator.

I meant to look at the past moons. In Stellarium you can adjusts the time and date, so you can see what the moon should have looked like on a particular date.

The setting moon in Las Vegas will always be rotated 36 degree from the setting moon at the equator. That's what you saw. So it should not really be startling if a 18 degree tilted moon at the equator is 18 degrees tilted the other way in Las Vegas (18+18 = 36). It's exactly what you would expect.

That degree of tilt though only happens a few days out of the year. One can easily work out the probability of seeing it if you estimate how many moonsets you see a year.

I really think, and no disrespect to any party here, that this thread has probably gone on long enough.

It's become nothing but a back and forth because...well, I really don't know.

Those that have been out to see the boat moon(s) this winter are absolutely correct that it has indeed been a boat several nights this year already. Though, for my fellows in North America, and not Mexico, it's not been a 'perfect' boat, but probably 10-20 degrees off.

The thing being missed here, is that this fact is not being disputed...people have just been trying to explain why the moon looks the way it does on a given night.

Stellarium is a key point because if there were something wrong, then what it shows would not match up with what is observed, but it has been shown that things do match well.

The equator has been mentioned many times. The only special place the equator has in this discussion is that it is the area of the Earth that will see a boat or near boat most often, but the Moon does not orbit the Earth's equator. That seems to be the thing that Cherub and others are missing, do not believe, etc.

The Earth is tilted at approximately 26 degrees from the ecliptic. The ecliptic being the orbit of the Earth around the Sun. That means during the summer and winter, the Earth's equator is a good bit above and below the ecliptic. The Moon's orbit around the Earth is and always has been close the ecliptic plane. That means that during winter nights (all across the world during their respective winter nights, not just the US or even just the norther hemisphere) the moon will normally be higher overhead. (obviously the equator will see it highest overhead during the spring/fall)

As Phage and others have shown, the Moon's orbit currently takes it almost directly over Mexico City at night (which is at approximately 20 degrees north of the equator) Las Vegas is at 36 degrees, so that's 16 degrees different. Phage's image shows what a 17 degree tilt looks like, which looks almost exactly like the images Cherub started this thread with.

I mean really, what's left to debate here? It's fine that you may not have understood how this all worked before, but how can it be explained any better to let you see that, while it is awesome to see, it's a normal winter Moon?

Let's think about this...even if you've just not noticed this phenomenon before, it doesn't mean it's something new and particularly strange. Nor does it mean that you are dumb or unobservant or what have you, it just means you've overlooked this at night during the winter months.

Given the cold, clouds, requirements for the Moon's phase and position at the time of observation, etc, I can safely say that I have not really noticed it before and I'm almost as old as you are, but sure enough, here in Lexington, KY (38 degrees north) I saw a rising boat the other night. Granted it was probably anywhere between 10 and 20 degrees from being a perfect boat though...as it should be.