Transgender boy's attempt to join Girl Scouts initially rejected

Originally posted by Maslo
reply to post by Lemon.Fresh

 

By the moral code of whom, exactly? Either there is a moral absolute, or everyone can make up their own moral code, and anything goes.

By moral code of Girl scouts organisation and by my moral code.

If everyone went by their own moral code, it would not be pretty.

That is why social moral code is pretty much absolute.

Originally posted by TsukiLunar
reply to post by Lemon.Fresh

 

Me not approving of his murdering does not mean that I hate all murderers, same as me not approving of the sexual preferences of my friends does not mean that I hate homosexuals. Again . . . square peg, round hole.

This has got to be the most bigoted BS i have ever seen. Equating dressing like a girl to murder?

Please read the wall of text explaining my views before you fly off the handle. It is well written and quite logical.

Or you can have a spaz-attack and start calling names.

I guess I am bigoted because I do not approve of actions others have taken. So be it. Your hemming and hawing does not change my views at all.

Every point I have made still stands. Even if it does not fit into your utopian dream world.

I was willing to read and accept points of view but if this is what the opposition is arguing then I say PANTIES FOR EVERY MAN.

Have a nice day.

I am sorry that you can't understand basic logic and reasoning.

Good-bye.

reply to post by Lemon.Fresh

If everyone went by their own moral code, it would not be pretty. That is why social moral code is pretty much absolute.

Wrong. Well kinda. You are referring to your moral code. Which in no way sways me.

Please read the wall of text explaining my views before you fly off the handle. It is well written and quite logical. Or you can have a spaz-attack and start calling names.

I did read the wall of text. Several time you compared murder to cross dressing.

I am sorry that you can't understand basic logic and reasoning.

Says he who cannot remember his own words.

Good-bye

See ya.

ATTENTION!!!!

Please discuss the topic and not other members.
Failure to post on topic will result in further post removals and closure of the thread.

Originally posted by TsukiLunar
reply to post by zanysami

 

*Applause*

Very well said.

However, these people will never understand such pain. They will continue to deny and criticize those that feel as you do. They cannot admit they are wrong. They cannot even see it. They are set in their ways and convincing them will be nigh impossible. It is to late for them.

I thank you for your input.

So let me get this straight...you think simply because someone is not transgender or gay or bi-sexual or trans-sexual they don't know "such pain." There's that "you have to accept MY problems and MY opinions because I'm one of those enlightened "free thinkers, but I don't have to accept yours (or even acknowledge you have a right to an opinion I disagree with) because you're "old fashioned or "blind" or "ignorant" mentality.

There are people who are bullied, denegrated, ridiculed, persecuted, attacked every single freaking day for something that makes them "different" to SOMEONE. Depression, or obesity, or mental illness, or social awkwardness, or physical disability...there are a lot of people who suffer pain for a lot of reasons.

But because we don't agree with this family's push to be accepted into a girls-only organization we can't possibly be intelligent or compassionate...we're wrong. Right?

reply to post by Lemon.Fresh

If everyone went by their own moral code, it would not be pretty. That is why social moral code is pretty much absolute.

Social moral code does not equal christian moral code, nor your moral code. Social moral code does not consider being transgender to be wrong in any way. And social moral code changes in time.

lol how many titles has this had?

LOL you think he would fit in better in the BOYSCOUTS?

your the one with the problem, not this young child!

Originally posted by Jansy

Originally posted by TsukiLunar
reply to post by zanysami

 

*Applause*

Very well said.

However, these people will never understand such pain. They will continue to deny and criticize those that feel as you do. They cannot admit they are wrong. They cannot even see it. They are set in their ways and convincing them will be nigh impossible. It is to late for them.

I thank you for your input.

So let me get this straight...you think simply because someone is not transgender or gay or bi-sexual or trans-sexual they don't know "such pain." There's that "you have to accept MY problems and MY opinions because I'm one of those enlightened "free thinkers, but I don't have to accept yours (or even acknowledge you have a right to an opinion I disagree with) because you're "old fashioned or "blind" or "ignorant" mentality.

There are people who are bullied, denegrated, ridiculed, persecuted, attacked every single freaking day for something that makes them "different" to SOMEONE. Depression, or obesity, or mental illness, or social awkwardness, or physical disability...there are a lot of people who suffer pain for a lot of reasons.

But because we don't agree with this family's push to be accepted into a girls-only organization we can't possibly be intelligent or compassionate...we're wrong. Right?

I dont think tuski was insulting you, he was insulting the majority of people on this thread that are critizing this young boy, and lgbt youth in general. Most of you, (most) are the park and bark type, that has had no real life experience on this topic, and also, one thing I have noticed on ATS is that it seems to be a internet punching bag, where people can spew hate everywhere. I think these are the kind of people tuski was targeting.

reply to post by darkredfish


Okay...no worries, my collar's already cool again. I understand that everyone...everyone...needs to feel that they fit in somewhere. I also, as I said, feel such sadness for this little guy/gal...because I'm sure he/she doesn't feel that sense of belonging.

But I'm not sure forcing yourself into a group is the way to feel accepted...because this troop may NOT. And I don't think it's this troop's responsibility to be the launching pad for this.

I guess there's no easy solution to anything...but I still assert that if the Girl Scouts want to be all inclusive, then they should drop their exclusive name and make their organization one that welcomes scouts of all types. Acceptance for Bobby might be easier that way...y'know?

Originally posted by Maslo

Social moral code does not equal christian moral code

At this point in time and with our location, yes, indeed, it does.

Social moral code does not consider being transgender to be wrong in any way.

Simple logic here, man. If it were socially acceptable, there would not be such a fight against it.

And social moral code changes in time.

edit on 28/10/11 by Maslo because: (no reason given)

That, I agree with.

Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh

Originally posted by Maslo

Social moral code does not equal christian moral code

At this point in time and with our location, yes, indeed, it does.

Social moral code does not consider being transgender to be wrong in any way.

Simple logic here, man. If it were socially acceptable, there would not be such a fight against it.

And social moral code changes in time.

edit on 28/10/11 by Maslo because: (no reason given)

That, I agree with.

I have to agree with you on this one lemon.
Currently social moral code does not approve of LGBTs.

Its stupid, but they dont,

Originally posted by TsukiLunar

Wrong. Well kinda. You are referring to your moral code.

Actually, I am talking about the social moral code.

Our society is predominantly Judeo-Christain. Therefore, the morals of our society will be predominantly Judeo-Christain.

Which in no way sways me.

I am not trying to sway you. You are complaining about people being ostracized. I am giving you simple and sound logical reasoning for the ostracizing of the people.

I did read the wall of text. Several time you compared murder to cross dressing.

Then apparently you did not read it too well.

The comparison is valid in that it is a life choice we all have to make. Do we follow the moral code of the society in which we live, or do we try and buck society?

Society tells us that it does not accept lying. Do we follow that code, or do we break that code? And if we do break that code, do we have the right to be upset because society does not treat us the same as people who follow the code?

It is not as simple as me saying that murder, or stealing, rape, cannibalism, lying, etc. are just as evil as being LGBT. That is not what I am saying at all.

What I am saying is that the moral code of our society does not accept these things as being morally acceptable. ABCDEF are unacceptable to society. This does not mean that F is just as evil as A, just that they are all equally unacceptable.

If I lie to someone, that is not acceptable. If I murder someone, that is not acceptable. Does me saying that mean that I think that all liars are just as evil as murderers? Absolutely not. I obviously see murder as far more evil than lying. Does that make lying socially acceptable? No. It is just as unacceptable as murder.

Says he who cannot remember his own words.

Really?

Please, please show me where I can't remember my words.

You know. Threads like this are very telling of why the argument is so heated from both sides.

People can't differentiate. Just because A=B does not mean that B=C. You have to take into account many different variables, and you will get your answer.

But people from both sides are to entrenched in their views, and so you always have the A=B means B=C, therefore A=C arguments.

Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh
You know. Threads like this are very telling of why the argument is so heated from both sides.

People can't differentiate. Just because A=B does not mean that B=C. You have to take into account many different variables, and you will get your answer.

But people from both sides are to entrenched in their views, and so you always have the A=B means B=C, therefore A=C arguments.

Or in other words, circular reasoning?

Originally posted by darkredfish

Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh
You know. Threads like this are very telling of why the argument is so heated from both sides.

People can't differentiate. Just because A=B does not mean that B=C. You have to take into account many different variables, and you will get your answer.

But people from both sides are to entrenched in their views, and so you always have the A=B means B=C, therefore A=C arguments.

Or in other words, circular reasoning?

Not so much circular reasoning. Just not seeing the full picture. Not taking into account all the variables.

Hard to explain. My brain is fried right now. Long week.

Does everyone against this just ignore my posts and continue repeating their ignorant arguments from earlier that I have said are incorrect or rooted in stupidity, or what?

To address a few posts:

The entire *point* of anti-androgens and estrogens in pill form, not injections - you don't inject these... is altering what happens to the BODY. Androgens/Estrogens don't affect what goes on in your brain (other than sex drive), they affect what happens to your body. They affect whether your voice deepens, they affect whether or not your facial hair grows like water flowing out of a sieve, and how girlish or boyish you look and sound. If I, a sixteen year old transgender MTF (male-to-female) had these at a younger age, I would look like a 16 year old girl! I would sound like a 16 year old girl! And I could finally not be afraid to *act* like a 16 year old girl, which would be my true hearts' desire.

The parents have no agenda other than trying to help their child, and others like HER - and again, she is a HER, a SHE, not a heshe, not a him/boy/his/etc. If you called someone who had already transitioned to being a female a 'him' you'd probably get maced.

It's not a "phase", it only gets worse. Most transgender children end up contemplating suicide, and even doing it, and no one even realizes why until after the fact. The media doesn't help by portraying transgenders as transvestites/cross-dresser - which are two different things.. sex has nothing to do with gender identity, and if you ARE innately a female, wearing female clothing and trying to make yourself look more feminine isn't "cross-dressing". It's trying to be who you are and not what society has forced you into doing.

There aren't any variables - the facts are these:
This person has realized what their dreams, emotions and everything have been telling them for years is that they want to physically become a girl. This doesn't always happen even until puberty is already going on, or we suppress it because we're afraid of what our parents will do, or what our friends will think (in my case). We come out to someone usually with a lot of nervousness and stuttering, and it takes SO MUCH courage, so much. It's especially confusing for a young person like this who doesn't yet understand why it would be a 'wrong' thing to want to be a girl "for real". So we tell our parents, or grandparents, or a counselor something, and eventually everybody knows. In my case, the reaction was denial .. and I was so embarrassed and terrified by saying something to my family in the first place I haven't been able to say anything ever again in the years since. Luckily for this amazing little girl, she had the luck of saying something at an early age. Since her parents are more open minded than half of you, strangely enough, she is going to get proper treatment, and probably grow up a happy teenage girl and then maybe even find someone to marry.

One of the hardest things about being a transgender past the "prime time" for treatment is that I know I'll probably never be a mother, no one will ever want to marry me or date me later, so I might be stuck as a male forever. It's scary, and if I didn't have things like politics and world affairs to bury myself in (aka, if I was a normal kid) I probably would already have killed myself out of hopelessness.

To the last poster: What you are essentially saying, though you may not realize it, is that because of a condition we have had since birth, and because the moral code of our society says it is 'wrong' for some reason, we should be condemned to a life of misery or even not existing at all just to satisfy society?

I just.. can't believe you people who are so open-minded about other things would be so closedminded and just downright mean about things like this. It's really sad, like legitimately saddening.

Originally posted by zanysami
. . .

To the last poster: What you are essentially saying, though you may not realize it, is that because of a condition we have had since birth, and because the moral code of our society says it is 'wrong' for some reason, we should be condemned to a life of misery or even not existing at all just to satisfy society?

. . .

And what of the other people who do not conform to society?

Should a liar be condemned to a life of misery or even not existing at all just to satisfy society?

That is the natural order of things. If you do not conform, you are an outcast. That is the way it has been, it is, and always will be. If one wants to blaze his own path against the constructs of society, one should not feel surprised that that society rejects them.

I just.. can't believe you people who are so open-minded about other things would be so closedminded and just downright mean about things like this. It's really sad, like legitimately saddening.

I am not being close-minded or mean at all.

I am being quite open and truthful.


To be pointedly honest with you all, this thread actually changed my view to a degree. It has made me realize that no one is born the way that they are. We are who we are based on the training we receive from our parents and society and our actions and choices. This goes for everything. Truthful or liar. Honest or thief. Straight or Gay. We are what we have chosen to be, and we must live with the fruits of our choices, whether they be good or bad.

You realize most scientists think gender dysphoria is a medical condition caused by horomonal imbalances in the womb or genetics, right? It isn't something we see on TV and 'choose' to be.. you're really, really stupid if you think that. And yes, you are being closed-minded and mean. Society SHOULD accept people who are transgender. That's the problem..

Originally posted by zanysami
You realize most scientists think gender dysphoria is a medical condition caused by horomonal imbalances in the womb or genetics, right?

And most scientists thought the world was flat as well.

Consensus proves nothing.

Society SHOULD accept people who are transgender. That's the problem..

So society SHOULD accept people who are thieves?