I had been deceived - My visit to an OWS protest

reply to post by projectvxn


People die with every political and economic philosophy, the price of change must be payed in blood. Unregulated Capitalism at the turn of the last century killed thousands of people because of unsafe working conditions. Triangle Shirtwaist is a prime example.

Modern Democratic Socialism isn't what you think it is. The only thing collectivist about it is having fair and proportional taxation. People's land isn't taken by the government. Property doesn't cease to exist. The rights of the people are the same as the rights of the person.

reply to post by SG-17


A person does not have to be in any way brainwashed to have a different opinion than you. Perhaps you do not like Fascism or Libertarianism because some prominent liberal planted those seeds in your head. See I doubt you dislike because someone else does, you sat down and analyzed them then came to a conclusion. Because I differ in opinion does not mean someone told me how to think, I do not ‘see red’ everywhere. In my most honest opinion I think Liberalism (Modern, Classical, Neocon) and Socialism (Communist, Marxist, Anarchist) are cut from the same cloth and I do not like either.

Originally posted by ParkerCramer
reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux

 

Thanks JPZ............I truly agree with your points, but I have to ask, is this at least not a start, maybe not in a exact direction, but this movement has managed to get people who would never take time out from the baseball game, or american idol to at least have some discourse.

I have spoken with people in the last 30 days that I have known for over 30-40 years, and they never gave a @#$% about these kinds of things, they just went along to get along.. I am not saying they all agree, but at least they are talking. perhaps as you pointed out, from ghandis reading of thoreaus book, he was inspired to make a change.

Parker
MTUBY

No thanks is necessary, brother. I cannot know exactly how much of my posts you have read, and there are members in this site who agree with me until they don't. Hell, Projectvxn are friends, and allies, yet we quibble often enough to make that friendship fun.

In terms of members here discovering just how deep my ideology runs on freedom and rights, there are a few who were stunned to discover that I hold no regard or respect for the so called "civil rights" movement. I believe that damned movement was so ridiculously and horribly detrimental to freedom and the individual rights of People that I have nothing nice to say at all about that stupid movement.

"Civil rights" are legal rights, and legal rights are granted rights, and what can be granted legally can be taken away legally. This is the profound problem with "civil rights", but "civil rights" has become America's sacred cow. Americans argue with me vehemently about the natural rights of People, insisting that I am just an ideological dreamer, and that the only rights that can possibly exist are those give to us by government. Years ago, some friends and I thought it would be a good idea to start a Non Taxpayers Legal Defense Fund to help those individuals fighting the tyranny of the IRS. One day on the 4th of July, we bought up some roses and went in to Old Town Pasadena to sell the roses to raise funds, and awareness, for the legal defense fund.

That day was a really hot day. I mean oppressively hot. So, as I tell you this story, I do my best to hold compassion for those I tell you about. It was a hot day, and under such extreme weather, rationality tends to go straight out the window. However, that hot, hot, hot, day no less than three People accused me of being "unAmerican". Can you imagine that? Three people accusing me of being un-American simply because I am advocating a Non Taxpayers Legal Defense Fund, and doing so on the 4th of July!

This is how far removed we have become from what we began as in terms of The United States, a nation forged by a revolution for independence, sparked by a tax on tea, to a nation that adores income tax and feels that everyone needs to adore it along with them.

What do we do? We stand up to tyranny. Not protest tyranny, but stand up to it. We place freedom above our own lives in this fight, and we refuse to acquiesce to tyranny. Must you have a bank account? I don't! Does it make my life difficult? You bet it does! Several of my clients get so annoyed at my cash only policy that they regularly argue with me over it. I finally have to suggest they find someone else to do business with if they are so unhappy with a cash only contract. I have never lost a client because of this. Unless you want to count all the clients I never got because of my policy. I have certainly lost plenty of those clients, and this is because the evil bankers have done everything they can to control me. They've failed, and in the end, I win!

No protest on my part...unless you want to count my many posts in this site as protest...just quiet and resolute action. When you, neo, project, misior, and countless others begin doing similar actions, then we will see the necessary change we all crave.

Would be great if you could post some footage or pictures, because some people aren't going to take your post at face value.

Originally posted by Alxandro
Seems OWS has been hijacked by decent folks, but since the Op said he went in the morning, it's obvious the hippies were still fast asleep.
I'm sure those on the other side would also be pleasantly surprised if they attended a Tea Party.
If the two groups can meet somewhere in the middle that would be a force to be reckoned with.

Would probably never happen what with the Left Wingers that think the Tea Party is racist, and the Right Wingers that think Occupy Wall Street is communist.

Originally posted by neo96
reply to post by ParkerCramer

 

Well if you had ready everything i have ever written you would know i vilify big government and those who push for bigger government get the most heat from me and yeah some people look at that like it's a left right issue.

But what i say is I want a smaller government a restoration to what made this country great and that brands me a right winger for the simple fact i set on the right what what most people want.

Government nor OWS is the answers to our problems the individual is call me whatever label you want makes no never mind to me.

I dont brand you as anything.............I am pointing out the fact that YOU are leaning towards it being the lefts fault in 90% of your posts.

How would you feel if we judged you by the actions of everyone who walks around with a gas mask on?? LOL

Parker
MTUBY

reply to post by projectvxn


There is black and white thinking then there is the middle ground. Philosophically speaking the stress lies in the continuum of liberty vs equality.

Many lefties see that big money in fact creates a corrupt big government. For some reason the neocons cannot make the connection between big money and big government and continue to support this corrupt system. Big government is only half of the puzzle. Republican and Democratic parties are ruled by big business. An example is the recent Citizens United ruling. "Corporations are not people and money is not speech".

Many "lefties" support shrinking the federal government especially the bloated, corrupt and immoral military industrial complex. Alas the neoconservatives love that kind of big government.

Conservative at one time actually meant to conserve our environment and natural resources, a conservationist. Hard to imagine but true.

We live in communities so we need to compromise. For instance the Green Bay Packers are a community owned NFL team.
They are the most successful NFL franchise in history yet the are owned collectively. I mean we can still have Jerry Jones and (RIP) Al Davis as charismatic individual owners and the Socialist Green Bay Packers happily existing together.

FDR saved capitalism from itself. Selfishness and greed are not the only human characteristics. The free market will not self regulate. More freedom for corporations will not solve the problems. Wall Street and the Fed have corrupted our government and made us contemptuous of our fellow citizens and the struggle for fairness and justice.

Originally posted by projectvxn
reply to post by aching_knuckles

 

So removing rights from the individual is ok with you?

Now I know where you stand.

Its not a black or white issue. Should personal rights allow a doctor to smoke in front of a dying cancer patient?

The world is not one extreme or another, as you like to view it.

reply to post by ParkerCramer

OK, I answered every one of your questions, will you extend me the same consideration?

Absolutely

So, lets see if I can play your game......................You believe its ok for GE not to have paid taxes in 2010?

I lay this at the feet of the tax code in this country that allows some to pay while others don't. This is why i advocate a flat tax system. Everyone pays the same and everyone pays for the lifestyle they choose. That way no one can complain about class warfare.

do you believe in punitive actions againgst those too poor to provide food or health care for their children??

If that means maintaining a system that encourages the laziness generationally? In the spirit of Federalism I believe states should be the ones to tailor their social programs. Not the federal government.

do you believe its ok for children to die of disease or starvation because their parents are poor or too lazy to work?

I do not. But only 2.7 percent of children in this country ALL children, show any sign of malnutrition. Feel free to google that figure. Should we try our best to help them? yes. Should we give money to the lazy parents who perpetuate this? How long does it go on before it becomes so much of a drain on the system that it collapses?

Do you believe that all the ills of america have been caused by the left?

The perpetual nanny state is caused by the left. Corporate socialism is upheld by both the right and the left.

Do you believe that if everybody just believed "LIKE YOU" the world would be a better place?

Actually the world would be boring. However people who aspire to collectivist ideologies are dangerous. As i said in a previous post collectivism, when put into practice, murders millions. History is my guide.

reply to post by ParkerCramer


The way is see it 76 years of social engineering have led us to this point in time where more people consuming than producing in this country far too many people have the wrong idealism that is contrary to what made this country one the greatest countries that ever existed.

Yes the left is my favorite target because theres never been a problem that government couldn't solve that in all reality hasn't fixed a damn things but have compounded them into more compounding stupidity.

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux





What do we do? We stand up to tyranny. Not protest tyranny, but stand up to it. We place freedom above our own lives in this fight, and we refuse to acquiesce to tyranny. Must you have a bank account? I don't! Does it make my life difficult? You bet it does! Several of my clients get so annoyed at my cash only policy that they regularly argue with me over it. I finally have to suggest they find someone else to do business with if they are so unhappy with a cash only contract. I have never lost a client because of this. Unless you want to count all the clients I never got because of my policy. I have certainly lost plenty of those clients, and this is because the evil bankers have done everything they can to control me. They've failed, and in the end, I win!

I could not agree with your position more........but how do we take advantage of all the attention that is being garnered on this movement and possibly redirect it?

even someone who is so opposed to weapons/violence will pick up a weapon to protect their young infant from imminent danger.....................so, even if opposed to the current protest, how do we use them to create an even better situation??

Parker
MTUBY

Originally posted by neo96
reply to post by ParkerCramer

 

The way is see it 76 years of social engineering have led us to this point in time where more people consuming than producing in this country far too many people have the wrong idealism that is contrary to what made this country one the greatest countries that ever existed.

Yes the left is my favorite target because theres never been a problem that government couldn't solve that in all reality hasn't fixed a damn things but have compounded them into more compounding stupidity.

edit on 15-10-2011 by neo96 because: (no reason given)

very good explanation.................but isn't the right also part of the government??

believe it or not I actually agree with a percentage of your post, I just dont agree that we can tie things up so neatly as to blame this side or that side, those people, or the other side.

Parker
MTUBY

Originally posted by projectvxn

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux

 

People even in the ATS forum are starting to call people fascist when they don't support the OWS protest. I asked for a definition of fascism and provided one myself but all I got in response was whining about how much I protest socialism. I guess more people read my stuff than I thought.

I've been called a bank shill, inhuman, and an whole host of other things simply for not agreeing to follow OWS to where I believe they are headed. Never mind my track record of promoting and advocating real solutions to these problems.

I understand the need to be part of something. I understand the need to want to defend it from attacks from the outside. I really do. But unlike many people, I don't want to be standing next to someone who wants to foment revolution and to burn the house down for the sake of some fruity revolution that will end with all of us under the thumb of a government that cannot be controlled.

Yes, I totally agree with you. The OWS is sporting for revolution. I hear people on ATS also calling for revolution. I know people want change from the old paradigm of the establishment, but this revolutionary stuff seems to have some Utopian ideals attached. And the tendency toward violent revolution is showing it's face.

reply to post by projectvxn


Thanks, I appreciate you answering my questions.

but, if I may, why do you believe that something or someone has to be at fault?? can it not be a collective fault??

when was the last time you took time off of work and went down to a court house to protect someones rights? someone who you did not know, and had a different opinion than you, but still deserved to have their freedoms/rights protected??

Parker
MTUBY

reply to post by ParkerCramer


I am not exactly a happy camper with the party i identify with i take what i like and leave the rest and since the left holds two thirds of the government my focus is on them also i am not exactly thrilled with the GOP candidates running at the moment which is why i prefer Ron Paul.

I have seen the left run amuck and i have see the right run amuck and for this country to survive there needs to be a major paradigm shift away from the left and right and from what i have seen Ron Paul is not even close to being a status quo government dog that we all have come to see so many others both left and right have become.

reply to post by Leo Strauss


It is never a good idea to mix metaphors when trying to make a cogent point. There is black and white, and then there is gray. There is North, East, South, and West, and then there is middle ground.

In terms of black and white, (and perhaps this is why you mixed your metaphors, because you all ready know this), gray is a mixture of black and white, so if all you are seeing is gray, this is because you lack the ability or technology to separate the black and the white of it.

Philosophically speaking the stress lies in the continuum of liberty vs equality.

When it comes to liberty, there is only one form of equality, and that is equality under the law. You have the same rights that I do. Now, why do I suspect that this equality only gets in the way of the equality you advocate?

Oh! This is why:

Many lefties see that big money in fact creates a corrupt big government. For some reason the neocons cannot make the connection between big money and big government and continue to support this corrupt system. Big government is only half of the puzzle. Republican and Democratic parties are ruled by big business. An example is the recent Citizens United ruling. "Corporations are not people and money is not speech".

It is doubtful that you even read the Citizen United ruling, and it is even more doubtful that you have any idea that Congress, years ago, defined corporations as a person, not once, but twice. In both the Uniform Commercial Code and the United States Code. It is further doubtful that you understand that the courts, including the Supreme Court, are required to abide by any legislation that is not unlawful.

More importantly than all of that is the fact that the Citizens United ruling had its legal reasoning rooted in The First Amendment, which very simply instructed the SCOTUS that:

"Congress shall make no laws..." Ooops! Look what Congress did! Congress went and abridged speech.

Of course, your contention with the ruling is that it was the abridgement of speech for a corporation. Well, so much for equality under the law.

Many "lefties" support shrinking the federal government especially the bloated, corrupt and immoral military industrial complex. Alas the neoconservatives love that kind of big government.

Yeah! Especially that most infamous of neoconservatives Barak Obama. That damned military industrial complex supporting ideologue is now using assassination as a political tool. Too bad we don't have a "leftie" in the Presidency.

Conservative at one time actually meant to conserve our environment and natural resources, a conservationist. Hard to imagine but true.

You are confusing conservatism with conservationism. Can you imagine that?

We live in communities so we need to compromise.

The Founders of the United States lived in communities too, and they compromised, one of the most famous compromises being the "three fifths compromise". This most imprudent compromise resulted in a Civil War that wound up killing more Americans than any war before or since.

FDR saved capitalism from itself.

Oh dear Lord! The Keynesian policies of FDR are not capitalism, have nothing at all to do with capitalism, and a heavily regulated market place is not a "free market".

Selfishness and greed are not the only human characteristics. The free market will not self regulate.

How would you know? Ever seen a free market?

More freedom for corporations will not solve the problems.

Corporatism is most assuredly not capitalism!

Wall Street and the Fed have corrupted our government and made us contemptuous of our fellow citizens and the struggle for fairness and justice.

Sure, the devil made us do it. Otherwise we would be a really great People, right?

Originally posted by neo96
reply to post by ParkerCramer

 

I am not exactly a happy camper with the party i identify with i take what i like and leave the rest and since the left holds two thirds of the government my focus is on them also i am not exactly thrilled with the GOP candidates running at the moment which is why i prefer Ron Paul.

I have seen the left run amuck and i have see the right run amuck and for this country to survive there needs to be a major paradigm shift away from the left and right and from what i have seen Ron Paul is not even close to being a status quo government dog that we all have come to see so many others both left and right have become.

edit on 15-10-2011 by neo96 because: (no reason given)

I starred you for that.......which is very rare, as you and I don't usually see eye to eye, or eye to mask. LOL

do you not see the possibility that if you focus on whats right, even as little as it currently is, with each party, and work to build from there, we have a much better chance of making our situation better??

A wise man always learns from a fool, but a fool never learns from a wise man."..........not directed at you, I'm just saying we can learn from everyone................some just less than others.

Parker
MTUBY

Originally posted by ParkerCramer
reply to post by projectvxn

 

Thanks, I appreciate you answering my questions.

but, if I may, why do you believe that something or someone has to be at fault?? can it not be a collective fault??

when was the last time you took time off of work and went down to a court house to protect someones rights? someone who you did not know, and had a different opinion than you, but still deserved to have their freedoms/rights protected??

Parker
MTUBY

Interesting premise but I am not a lawyer. I do not have the qualification to protect the rights of others in court proceedings.

Because people run government. Someone IS to blame. I just choose to place the blame where it belongs. In Government.

Government creates class warfare

Government creates a stacked deck against our own interests(even against the interests of Wall St.)

Government creates dependency which in turn exacerbates poverty and criminality.

If we are EVER going to get these problems under control then it is government that must first be cut down to size. Cutting the size of government limits the power that can be co-opted by moneyed interests.

If this to say that there aren't any real corporatists on Wall St.? No. But if we keep giving government more and more power there will always be more and more opportunity for corporate socialism to become the norm.

Projectvxn, JPZ, well said and get out of my head!

We need more people to think things through the emotions used against us, and to reach the logical truth as you both have.

Keep up the good fight, as will I.

The OW protests are a waste and the people are being used witlessly, against themselves, and the rest of us.

As my signature says, non-aquiescence/non-compliance is the answer.

Originally posted by projectvxn

Originally posted by ParkerCramer
reply to post by projectvxn

 

Thanks, I appreciate you answering my questions.

but, if I may, why do you believe that something or someone has to be at fault?? can it not be a collective fault??

when was the last time you took time off of work and went down to a court house to protect someones rights? someone who you did not know, and had a different opinion than you, but still deserved to have their freedoms/rights protected??

Parker
MTUBY

Interesting premise but I am not a lawyer. I do not have the qualification to protect the rights of others in court proceedings.

Because people run government. Someone IS to blame. I just choose to place the blame where it belongs. In Government.

Government creates class warfare

Government creates a stacked deck against our own interests(even against the interests of Wall St.)

Government creates dependency which in turn exacerbates poverty and criminality.

If we are EVER going to get these problems under control then it is government that must first be cut down to size. Cutting the size of government limits the power that can be co-opted by moneyed interests.

If this to say that there aren't any real corporatists on Wall St.? No. But if we keep giving government more and more power there will always be more and more opportunity for corporate socialism to become the norm.

sorry I wasnt more clear.....I did not mean as a legal representative, but for moral support, someones rights being blatantly trampled on.

I also agree with your other position.........but, are we ALL not the government?? we the people.
we have cused this by allowing a few to convince us that its our neighbors, its the left, its the right..............when it reality it truly is only about 1% of the population doin all the minipulation and laughing as they watch us blame each other.

Parker
MTUBY

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux

Have you ever ever considered that you might be wrong? I thought not. Proceed.