I had been deceived - My visit to an OWS protest

reply to post by projectvxn


I have some idea of the horrible tyranny you and your family must have suffered before escaping that. I am humbly and profoundly respectful of that. Yet, no matter how bad that was, it does not make the tyranny of this nation today any more palatable.

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux


I'm not saying that injustice here is better than injustice anywhere else.

I'm saying that there are varying degrees and quite frankly much of what is spoken about here on ATS has no grounding in reality.

I am all too aware of incrementalism. I know how it works. And I fight against it because what my family experienced in Cuba is enough for me to make sure it doesn't happen here.

reply to post by ParkerCramer


No people like him and others even myself do not see it as a left right issue we see it as and up or down issue

do we lift ourselves up or do we continue the same line of thinking that us led us off a cliff at least thats how i read his postings.

reply to post by ParkerCramer


Again, stop avoiding the question and tell me where you stand.

Are you against capitalism? Do you blame Wall St. for your problem like OWS does?

Are you for punitive taxes on the rich?

Are you for single payer health care?

Gun Control?

Where exactly do you stand?

imagine being under the thumb of a communist dictatorship with the power of the US military.

Where did you get that crap from? So anyone who doesn't want rich criminals running their country is trying to install a communist dictatorship?

And why the hell would you dismiss an entire movement on a suspicion that some "hippies" could be involved, or gasp, people drumming? So hippies aren't people, they can't have legitimate greivances? How unamerican is that? The hippies were here before you neocons were, so if anything that makes them more American. And what the hell is wrong with drums anyways? And you extremists wonder why people call you fascists? It's because you are.

reply to post by Misoir


Good that you finally saw the truth.


Though the fact that you imply that socialism is a bad thing is a bit troubling. The McCarthy era propaganda still has a strong hold on people's minds.

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux


Thanks JPZ............I truly agree with your points, but I have to ask, is this at least not a start, maybe not in a exact direction, but this movement has managed to get people who would never take time out from the baseball game, or american idol to at least have some discourse.

I have spoken with people in the last 30 days that I have known for over 30-40 years, and they never gave a @#$% about these kinds of things, they just went along to get along.. I am not saying they all agree, but at least they are talking. perhaps as you pointed out, from ghandis reading of thoreaus book, he was inspired to make a change.

Parker
MTUBY

reply to post by BadNinja68


"Im as disgusted with Obama as everyone else... But you do remember the other choice.. McCain/Palin. "

There was another choice: vote your conscious or morals..

If you support torture, assassinations, aggressive wars based on lies, occupations, the Federal reserves Pentagon and all the other sketchy crap the GOP & DNC represent.. go ahead, re-elect media hyped evil & corruption. Replace one mafioso with another.. undeniable result will be more goose stepping police state, war & epic fail.

Otherwise.. vote for anyone but them.

OWS are just Angry Americans of all walks.. can't expect corporate media shills to report that. Any group that arises to challenge power will be marginalized, ridiculed and pigeon holed, aka divided, from being seen as reflecting popular opinion. It's either left or right fringe.. commie, funded by, suckers for.. cant possible be anything else or Wolf Blitzers head might explode in confusion there are, in fact, more than two opinions amongst 350 million people.

reply to post by neo96


To be more specific I see it as a battle between those who wish to respect and preserve the Republic and those who wish to turn this into a democracy so they can vote my rights away.

reply to post by projectvxn


The Devil is in the details isn't it?

Clarity is what is needed most right now.

reply to post by ParkerCramer


Well if you had read everything i have ever written you would know i vilify big government and those who push for bigger government get the most heat from me and yeah some people look at that like it's a left right issue.

But what i say is I want a smaller government a restoration to what made this country great and that brands me a right winger for the simple fact i set on the right what what most people want.

Government nor OWS is the answers to our problems the individual is call me whatever label you want makes no never mind to me.

reply to post by CB328


Do you even know what a fascist is?

Apparently not.

Fascism requires a LARGE state apparatus in order to be a fascist state...
en.wikipedia.org...

Fascism ( /ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a radical authoritarian nationalist political ideology.[1][2] Fascists seek to rejuvenate their nation based on commitment to the national community as an organic entity, in which individuals are bound together in national identity by suprapersonal connections of ancestry, culture, and blood.[3] To achieve this, fascists purge forces, ideas, people, and systems deemed to be the cause of decadence and degeneration.[3] Fascists believe that a nation requires strong leadership, singular collective identity, and the will and ability to commit violence and wage war in order to keep the nation strong.[4] It advocates the creation of a totalitarian single-party state that seeks the mass mobilization of a nation through indoctrination, physical education, and family policy (such as eugenics).[5] A fascist state's government is led by a supreme leader who exercises a dictatorship over the fascist movement, the government, and other institutions of the state.[6] Discipline and obedience to the leader is demanded by the fascist movement to followers and subjects of a fascist state and is promoted through encouraging comradeship and commitment of followers and subjects.[7] Fascist governments forbid and suppress opposition to the fascist state.[8]

Maybe this will help. Wanting people to keep the fruits of their labor isn't being a fascist.

However there are two ideologies that share similar collectivist characteristics with fascism. Socialism and Communism.

I'm down on OWS not because there are a bunch of dumb hippies at the rallies. But because it's organized by collectivists and promoted by hard left wing ideologues that I believe, like the false right wing of this country, seek a larger and more prominent government structure.

I am against big government and collectivism. So therefore I could not be fascist.

Perhaps you require further education in these matters.

Originally posted by projectvxn
reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux

 

Yes, but imagine being under the thumb of a communist dictatorship with the power of the US military.

We may be under the thumb of government as far as regulation, taxation and expenditure are concerned. But dictatorship of that caliber does not yet exist here.

All the more reason to shrink government.

Why do you assume that a communist government must be a dictatorship? There is not one single nation in the history of our world that has had a real communist economy or government. Leninism, Maoism, and Castroism are all severely twisted forms of national socialism and are/were communist in name only.

A true communist economy could exist within a true republican (not the party) government.


As it stands right now there are only three places that the American economy and system of government can go.

1) Total collapse and anarchy
2) Socialist reform with a renewed, more direct, democracy
3) Complete Corporatocracy and a transformation of the 99% into wage slaves.

Originally posted by projectvxn
reply to post by neo96

 

To be more specific I see it as a battle between those who wish to respect and preserve the Republic and those who wish to turn this into a democracy so they can vote my rights away.

This republic, so called, isn't worthy of.. or earned, a modicum of respect. Torture, kidnapping, off shore prisons, patriot act, aggressive wars, un wanted un welcome occupations, global manipulation, rewriting inconvenient laws while ignoring others.

These behaviors are far from a reflection of the peoples will.. 2 parties with the same foreign policy means we are being dictated to btw..

reply to post by SG-17


It's collectivism.

It's the right of the individual taking a sidestep to the rights of the collective.

Each and every time that philosophy is put into practice people die.

This is why, that despite our pretty opposite views, you have always had my respect. You're always willing to at least look beyond the puff. We may never agree on much but I appreciate the example you set and will try harder to follow it.

Originally posted by projectvxn
reply to post by SG-17

 

It's collectivism.

It's the right of the individual taking a sidestep to the rights of the collective.

Each and every time that philosophy is put into practice people die.

Yeah, like seat belt laws and no smoking areas! When you remove rights from the individual to give to the majority, a puppy dies!

Originally posted by projectvxn
reply to post by ParkerCramer

 

Again, stop avoiding the question and tell me where you stand.

Are you against capitalism? Do you blame Wall St. for your problem like OWS does?

Are you for punitive taxes on the rich?

Are you for single payer health care?

Gun Control?

Where exactly do you stand?

Ah! you need me to fit into a box..................

No, i am not against capatialism........I have owned a business for 40 years.

No, i am not for punitive taxes on the rich...........I am for FAIR taxes on the filthy wealthy, who pay the IRS to write codes that only benefit them.

No, I dont agree with payer health care.............I do find it absurd that in the worlds wealthiest economy we have children die of starvation, and lack of health care everyday.

Gun control.........no such thing, we all bear the right to have guns and protect ourselves.


good luck finding a box for me to fit in.


So, lets see if I can play your game......................You believe its ok for GE not to have paid taxes in 2010?

do you believe in punitive actions againgst those too poor to provide food or health care for their children??

do you believe its ok for children to die of disease or starvation because their parents are poor or too lazy to work?

Do you believe that all the ills of america have been caused by the left?

Do you believe that if everybody just believed "LIKE YOU" the world would be a better place?

OK, I answered every one of your questions, will you extend me the same consideration?


Parker
MTUBY

reply to post by aching_knuckles


So removing rights from the individual is ok with you?

Now I know where you stand.