Are you fooling yourself ?

reply to post by Q:1984A:1776

Here is a link to a fairly decent rendition of the historical basis for many people's lack of belief that the man you call Christ ever existed:

At around 14 min. into The God Who Wasn't There, it says that Paul presented a Jesus who is not connected to earth, but was involved in events in another, mythical realm. To back that up, they quote from Hebrews 8:4
Now if he were on earth, he would not be a priest, since there are already priests who offer the gifts prescribed by the law.
No, because he was in heaven serving as priest in the temple the one on earth was a copy of, just like it says in Exodus.
Second, almost no biblical scholar believes Paul wrote the Book of Hebrews. It never makes that claim in the text.
This may seem trivial but it is what the whole premise of the movie is, which is the Mythical Jesus Theory. That this is the only direct biblical proof they offer, then you can get a clue as to the honesty of the makers.

reply to post by BillfromCovina


You're right it is odd isn't ? And this does apply.

Rom: 1:16 -17
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes : first to the jew, then to the gentile. 17 For in the gospel the righteousness of God :is revealed : a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written : " The righteous will live by faith."

And how could I not agree with you. I know you are at least arguably correct.
I only used those questions to demonstrate that it is faith, not proof that I believe in Christ. If there was absolute proof you wouldn't be who you are. Gods word wouldn't be correct. Everything is just as it should be.
You have your place and I have mine. Two paths you can go by, but in the long run. There's still time to change the road you're on.

Cheers

reply to post by randyvs


In the end all you have is faith in a belief with no proof. A faith that greedy, hateful, and corrupt men couldn't possibly lie to you. A faith that you will be saved if you believe. Saved from what? Eternal damnation for not believing. Sounds like fear to me.

Originally posted by BillfromCovina
reply to post by randyvs

 

In the end all you have is faith in a belief with no proof. A faith that greedy, hateful, and corrupt men couldn't possibly lie to you. A faith that you will be saved if you believe. Saved from what? Eternal damnation for not believing. Sounds like fear to me.

I am very happy to see you are a good Christian.
Yes, anyone presenting themselves as a leader is corrupt, and not a true man of God.
Thanks for doing your Christian duty by pointing that out.
When Jesus said, Follow me, he did not mean, Now I am your father, he was saying, Die with me for the sake of the truth, to bring justice to the earth by pointing out evil when you see it, even if the people calling themselves authorities punish you for saying so.

I am very happy to see you are a good Christian.
Yes, anyone presenting themselves as a leader is corrupt, and not a true man of God.
Thanks for doing your Christian duty by pointing that out.
When Jesus said, Follow me, he did not mean, Now I am your father, he was saying, Die with me for the sake of the truth, to bring justice to the earth by pointing out evil when you see it, even if the people calling themselves authorities punish you for saying so.

Assuming he existed, or said any such thing if he did exist (unlikely), this is just another one of the countless interpretations.These have historically pitted believers against each other.

I doubt that you can know with complete confidence what these words mean. I don't doubt that you believe you know.

Originally posted by randyvs

And how could I not agree with you. I know you are at least arguably correct.
I only used those questions to demonstrate that it is faith, not proof that I believe in Christ. If there was absolute proof you wouldn't be who you are. Gods word wouldn't be correct. Everything is just as it should be.
You have your place and I have mine. Two paths you can go by, but in the long run. There's still time to change the road you're on.

Cheers

Randy, how do you know God's word is correct? It appears not IMO. How do you know that everything is as it should be? This appears incorrect also IMO.

Without getting deeply into the historicity of this subject, I wonder why the point of view below would be wrong? Truly.

A mythical (IMO) chap who came not for peace, but with a sword to pit son against father etc and damn all to hell who might have loved those that are real and in front of them, more than a hearsay story book figure, would surely have been insane if he did exist. Though with a mythical (again IMO) father apparently Sociopathic, Schizophrenic suffering an extreme case of Narcissistic Personality Disorder, it is not to be unexpected. If we are take seriously all of these figure's supposed message to humanity, this is not an unrealistic view at all.

There are many wonderful, intelligent, loving caring people on this planet. Religion can have different meaning for different people, perhaps some living in a grass hut in the jungle personify all of the virtues associated with religion without ever having heard of Christ. That all of these people will suffer eternally for giving preference to caring for what is knowingly real and in front of them, or for never having the heard of him, is ludicrous. It is just as well it is a superstition (IMO), most reasonable people would shun such a notion of authority willingly.

Christ and in particular his old man, will have to reconcile a few common facts if they are not to fade into irrelevant obscurity. Things like planets being formed over extremely long periods of time by accretion, life on this planet being subject to evolution (regardless how it started), the fact that it is billions of years old to name a few. It is veering in the area of self deception to give preference to ages old unsubstantiated claims, over what is becoming generally accepted and largely verifiable knowledge.

Unlike the time it was forced to acknowledge the fact of heliocentricity, orthodox bible based religion cannot submit to what are accepted common facts of our existence without admission a certain book is plain wrong and as a result, flawed, incorrect, redundant . Christianity, as based on the bible, is heading in the same direction as many popular beliefs have done before it.

All of this aside from a complete lack of anything to substantiate the existence of either father or son, outside of faith. I hope to never see people as less than for what they believe.This is because I have a lot of experience and research where cults are concerned and know that stereotypes surrounding belief systems are, in general, nonsense. I really only wonder that while you will obviously not agree with opposing views like this, whether you do understand how people might have genuinely searched and why they come to such conclusions.

reply to post by Cogito, Ergo Sum

Assuming he existed, or said any such thing if he did exist (unlikely), this is just another one of the countless interpretations.These have historically pitted believers against each other.
I doubt that you can know with complete confidence what these words mean. I don't doubt that you believe you know.

So what? No one has to. You either are complicit with evil by your silence, or you are on the side of Justice by pointing out evil.
If you are afraid, you go to hell.
If you set aside your fear in the face of duty and are killed in this world, you will be rewarded in the next.
Christians set aside their fear and act because Jesus gives them that confidence. The choice is lick boots in this world or stand up like a man and be that man in a better world, or cower in darkness forever.

reply to post by Cogito, Ergo Sum

Randy, how do you know God's word is correct? It appears not IMO. How do you know that everything is as it should be? This appears incorrect also IMO.

Because I've decided there must be a God who is our Father in Heaven. There is a Creator. You have decided
something else, something you havn't made clear. You don't even see the disadvantage I'm at in these discussions. I'm not complaining but, have you lay what you believe out to be scrutinized ? Have i asked, who your God is, so I can mock
and ridicule it ? No I havn't have I. If I have insulted you Cog ? It should be in that fact.

Randy, how do you know God's word is correct? It appears not IMO. How do you know that everything is as it should be? This appears incorrect also IMO.

Without getting deeply into the historicity of this subject, I wonder why the point of view below would be wrong? Truly.

A mythical (IMO) chap who came not for peace, but with a sword to pit son against father etc and damn all to hell who might have loved those that are real and in front of them, more than a hearsay story book figure, would surely have been insane if he did exist. Though with a mythical (again IMO) father apparently Sociopathic, Schizophrenic suffering an extreme case of Narcissistic Personality Disorder, it is not to be unexpected. If we are take seriously all of these figure's supposed message to humanity, this is not an unrealistic view at all.

Because you judge with no authority.

There are many wonderful, intelligent, loving caring people on this planet. Religion can have different meaning for different people, perhaps some living in a grass hut in the jungle personify all of the virtues associated with religion without ever having heard of Christ. That all of these people will suffer eternally for giving preference to caring for what is knowingly real and in front of them, or for never having the heard of him, is ludicrous. It is just as well it is a superstition (IMO), most reasonable people would shun such a notion of authority willingly.

This is you talking about things you know nothing about obviously .

Christ and in particular his old man, will need to reconcile a few common facts if they are not to fade into irrelevant obscurity. Things like planets being formed over extremely long periods of time by accretion, life on this planet being subject to evolution (regardless how it started), the fact that it is billions of years old to name a few. It is veering in the area of self deception to give preference to ages old unsubstantiated claims, over what is becoming generally accepted and largely verifiable knowledge.

Unlike the time it was forced to acknowledge the fact of heliocentricity, orthodox bible based religion cannot submit to what are accepted common facts of our existence without admission a certain book is plain wrong and as a result, flawed, incorrect, redundant . Christianity, as based on the bible, is heading in the same direction as many popular beliefs have done before it.

All of this aside from a complete lack of anything to substantiate the existence of either father or son, outside of faith. I hope to never see people as less than for what they believe.This is because I have a lot of experience and research where cults are concerned and know that stereotypes surrounding belief systems are, in general, nonsense. I really only wonder that while you will obviously not agree with opposing views like this, whether you do understand how people might have genuinely searched and why they come to such conclusions.

This is all typical crap Cog. You don't know anything after how many years of searching ? Mankind doesn't even know where he came from with out God. Why is that ? Why does man suffer from amnesia as for his origins ?


The Flood. That's why Bud. You are hopeless and lost and because you've chosen to believe the lies.
The only way to solve this arguement is to wait and see. i say you will bow. You say you won't. I can't wait.
Does that sound like fear ?

reply to post by randyvs


Jesus was a Jew, why aren't you?

Originally posted by SonoftheSun
reply to post by randyvs

 

There is no doubt in my mind that he must have been one heck of an individual. After all, our years do in fact follow him, so there has to be something there, wouldn't anyone think?

Even the Quran says that he was an amazing individual, a prophet even.

reply to post by C3RB3RU5

Jesus was a Jew. . .

It is possible that he was not.
He may very well have been a Judean, which would be the people who were left on the land after the Babylonians sacked Jerusalem. The Jews were the people who came from Babylon after that empire was taken over by the Persians. Most likely the Jews were mostly people who were fellow captives by the Babylonians who thought it would be a good idea to join up with the Jews by proclaiming themselves Jews, in order to get land grants and suppress the Judeans, who were the actual native born people who had a long history of living there. Those are the same people (the Jews, ethnic central Asians and not Semitic) today, doing the same thing to the Palestinians. So most likely Jesus was a Greek speaking Palestinian actually named, Jesus.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Cogito, Ergo Sum

 

Assuming he existed, or said any such thing if he did exist (unlikely), this is just another one of the countless interpretations.These have historically pitted believers against each other.
I doubt that you can know with complete confidence what these words mean. I don't doubt that you believe you know.

So what? No one has to. You either are complicit with evil by your silence, or you are on the side of Justice by pointing out evil.
If you are afraid, you go to hell.
If you set aside your fear in the face of duty and are killed in this world, you will be rewarded in the next.
Christians set aside their fear and act because Jesus gives them that confidence. The choice is lick boots in this world or stand up like a man and be that man in a better world, or cower in darkness forever.

Aside from your boolean algebra type ultra simplistic blanketing of all who claim to lead (which would make for an interesting conversation within itself), what I really wonder is how you came to your interpretation of words claimed to be uttered by a certain Yeshua.

I can only assume that you are referring to the hearsay account where Christ admonishes a potential minion for having the temerity of wishing to bury his father and pay his respects to his family. Though I could be wrong and if I am could you please add some context. By the way this sentiment is completely in character for a delusionally insane religious charlatan and quite common. Yep, never heard this sentiment before.....

Having heard enough interpretations of this little pearl of wisdom to fill my own small book and seeing that it obviously could have deeper esoteric meaning, I was wondering not only how you came to yours, but how you arrived at such self assured certainty? In view of the many conflicting interpretations, all characterised with similar certainty.

reply to post by Cogito, Ergo Sum

Aside from your boolean algebra type ultra simplistic blanketing of all who claim to lead (which would make for an interesting conversation within itself), what I really wonder is how you came to your interpretation of words claimed to be uttered by a certain Yeshua.

It was not a blanket statement and I gave specificity to it be restricting it to falling into two categories, religious "leaders", and "Men of God".

The other thing is based on John 12,

I tell you the solemn truth, unless a kernel of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it remains by itself alone. . . .The one who loves his life destroys it, and the one who hates his life in this world guards it for eternal life. If anyone wants to serve me, he must follow me, and where I am, my servant will be too. If anyone serves me, the Father will honor him. . . . Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out.

Because I've decided there must be a God who is our Father in Heaven. There is a Creator.

Yes, I have already realised this. As far as answers go this rivals the wisdom of........."just because I do"... in its depth. Fair enough, I will accept that and I understand you base it on solely faith. I base my opinion on what I observe.

have decided
something else, something you havn't made clear. You don't even see the disadvantage I'm at in these discussions. I'm not complaining but, have you lay what you believe out to be scrutinized ? Have i asked, who your God is, so I can mock
and ridicule it ? No I havn't have I. If I have insulted you Cog ? It should be in that fact.

You have laid out a personal belief for discussion and as such have also invited the scalpel of critical opinion. You have no right to complain or take things personally, unless obvious and intentional disrespect is aimed at you personally. You I admire and have time for, the belief that all non Christians are suffering self deception far less so.

It is largely irrelevant to this thread as to what I believe. At any rate you have already pre empted that by dismissing me as not having done anything other than simply believe lies I have been told. I take no offence at this. Whether true or otherwise, you are entitled to have your opinion.

Ironically one great truth I have eventually found, at least in a way, came via the ramblings of a greatly deluded Christian charlatan. The (IMO) more fanatically unbalanced of his followers offers tremendous insight to anyone with an interest in cult phenomena. Obviously brilliant when compared to more well known contemporaries. Wisdom can be found in strange places.

Whatever beliefs I may or may not have, the possibility of being mocked is not among the reasons for keeping them personal. What I did mention, though possibly inconvenient, are simply by now common facts of our mundane earthly existence. Quite a conflict to be found there with many religious beliefs, I find it interesting how people reconcile these things.

I don't believe you have ever insulted me. In contrast I feel you show a good balance of restraint while at the same time sticking up for your beliefs, as you should. I appreciate this fact.

Because you judge with no authority.

Not only that, I also claim the authority that you cling to, to be non existent, illusory.

This is you talking about things you know nothing about obviously .

This is not a genuine response. It is simply a dismissive "couldn't be bothered". It might have been better not to have bothered.

This is all typical crap Cog. You don't know anything after how many years of searching ?

I do know that what I stated appears to be the only explanation available, with no real evidence based reasons to think otherwise. As to what I may or may not know on a deeper level I can only refer you to Socrates. He claimed that what set him apart from other men was not in what he knew, but in what he realised he did not know.

Mankind doesn't even know where he came from with out God

If you were to remove the last three words you would have spoken a great truth IMO.

The Flood. That's why Bud. You are hopeless and lost and because you've chosen to believe the lies.
The only way to solve this arguement is to wait and see. i say you will bow. You say you won't. I can't wait.
Does that sound like fear ?

Would you care to point me to some evidence for this. Or perhaps you could point me to some evidence for a Jewish slave race having existed in Egypt, the exodus, wandering the desert etc. Nothing walks the face of the earth without leaving a trace, much less a whole race of people. Some things are conspicuous by their absence.

It doesn't sound like fear at all. Where religion is concerned it usually sounds like the product of an extremely long history of young people being indoctrinated into a cultural myth at an early age. Though undoubtedly fear is an important part of this process.The basic story of Xenu of Scientology is no more mythical or less believable than what Christians profess, if considered without bias. If Hubbard existed in first century Palestine things might have been much different.............

It was not a blanket statement and I gave specificity to it be restricting it to falling into two categories, religious "leaders", and "Men of God".

Thank you for the clarification.

My misunderstanding.

reply to post by Cogito, Ergo Sum

Would you care to point me to some evidence

What you are really asking is, Do I have information no one else has ? No, I don't. I am however, sighting the obvious correlation between mans inablilty to know anything about his origins collectively and scientifically. I employ attention and thought, to imagining a world where mankind once knew his origins absolutely. Then I think about it in terms of scripture and come to this conclusion. Man was created and there was no doubt at first, everyone knew this and there was no arguing it. Man commited sin by not listening to his maker. As in any Creator
creation relation the Creator has inalienable rights over the creation. He starts over bringing mankind down to
almost to nill. Mankind is allowed to remain in existence and repops the earth. But his heart hasn't changed and
he is now more vulnerable to sin, because there is no proof left of his creation by God. Fast forward to modern times and you, are the result of what can only be a degenerative way of life. Your indoctrination of non belief is
a result of psychopathic rulers, who are at war with God in the first place. Isn't it obvious that, the only way we will ever have all the answers concerning our past, is if there is a God keeping record ? Otherwise science will never be able to tell us anything about that, if they havn't been able to by now .

Beyond faith and evidence, there is a personal dislike, for a mankind whos life is a space between two nothings.
If mankind has no purpose there would be no mankind.

Just saying God dosn't exist ? Without evidence as science does, presents no conclusion to the question. Not scientifically, not philosophically and definetly not spiritually. Spiritually and philosophically a better case is made
for Gods existence.

reply to post by randyvs

The arguments you're making on behalf of your beliefs would also apply for any other religious approach... how do you know Christianity is right and Hinduism or Buddhism are not?

To make something up isn't solving any questions by the way.
The Scientist at least admits that he doesn't know all the answers yet, but he develops deductive theories and keeps on searching for arguments.

You don't know either... you just "believe" and claim your beliefs are true.

So who is fooling themselves?

Originally posted by ColCurious
reply to post by randyvs

The arguments you're making on behalf of your beliefs would also apply for any other religious approach... how do you know Christianity is right and Hinduism or Buddhism are not?

I'm not making any arguements. I'm showing people the sense that I can make of our existence thru belief in Christ and the Bible.

I believe in Christ and our heavenly Father. Because I see the sense in believing there is a God whos existence is greater than ours. I don't see mankind as the ultimate being that could possibly
exist. So the philosophical religions of man just won't do for me. Confucious, Buddha, Mohammed, Reverend Moon, Harry Krishna. These are all sentient. I believe when man dies he is just giving up his life force, (spirit/soul)
to a higher level of existence. Where God is the ultimate You believe this limited existence in this physical world is all there is and see the absurdity of that. So you and others, are making the arguements from simple heathen views and using science to back them up.. The Bible
the Father and Christ trump them all. I was raised in a family that never once went to Church together. No particular claims to any one religion really. At around 18 and after glossing over reincarnation and all the main religions of the world. Atheism was the first, one thing I tossed out, seeing it made the least amount of sense.
Nothing else made very much sense either. So I chose to believe in God. If you go there ? You have to go all the way. So if I believe in God, that he created us and the universe. Then he would be able to get a message to us at least that if we read it we will come to know him. That being the whole point of the Bible, so
now that makes sense. It's been making sense to me evermore. It is the truth of our ( mans ) purpose. Others argue to me that It isn't. Well like I said.
We are just going to have to wait and see, even tho I really can't wait. I have never seen any name on the planet
with the power to turn freaks back into human beings. None Compare to the name of Jesus Christ. So what else can I say about disbelief when it appears to be an even bigger magic act than the one I purpose that does have a magician ?

The fact that scientists can't have the evidence they seek fits scripture and what God wants to the tee.
You can't believe in something of a spiritual nature by looking for physical proof. So it really is the hieght of ignorance to even ask someone for it.

Ignorance ! That,s exactly what it is. Sighting everything from Pascals wager to the genome.

To make something up isn't solving any questions by the way.
The Scientist at least admits that he doesn't know all the answers yet, but he develops deductive theories and keeps on searching for arguments.
You don't know either... you just "believe" and claim your beliefs are true.

No, I trust that what God says is true, so I can know what I believe.

So who is fooling themselves?

That's why I asked the question, "Are you fooling yourself" ? Because I believe it's you and those like you..

reply to post by randyvs

Your reply is a little woozy but I'll try to answer it anyways

Actually it was you who brought up "facts" and "proof" for your belief.
You and others presented our Calendar, the Bible, the Quran, the Dead Sea Scrolls and Cornelius Tacitus as evidence to support your claim of truth.
None of the above held a single piece of evidence that supports your claims... thats all I'm saying.

Now you're saying you don't need any proof besides God talking to you... and that's fine with me, as I stated here:

Originally posted by ColCurious
You are entitled to believe whatever you want to.
You can believe something to be true (even if its not)... but you cant state that therefore it is factually true.

So I'm not ignorant towards your belief-system, I'm just stating that it is nothing more than that. It's "believing", not to be confused with "knowing".

I'm not an atheist by the way. I'm not saying there is no God, I'm just saying we don't know.

reply to post by ColCurious


To say we don't know implies there is subjective evidence. Or that you have a mouse in your pcket. You can't imply that I don't know. Just dosn't work for me.

Fast forward to modern times and you, are the result of what can only be a degenerative way of life.

Randy, I ask that you reconsider this statement in the interests of reasonable discussion. Perhaps I have misunderstood it.

I understand you have strong beliefs as is your right.

Passing negative personal judgement of people due to simply having a different belief, can be unwise and doesn't seem very Christian.

Just saying God dosn't exist ? Without evidence as science does, presents no conclusion to the question. Not scientifically, not philosophically and definetly not spiritually. Spiritually and philosophically a better case is made for Gods existence.

God is unnecessary and irrelevant to science at this stage. Spirituality and philosophy themselves are not directly within the remit of science so far, except where they are studied indirectly eg. Cultural Anthropology. Though many scientists are of the personal opinion that the God of Christianity (and other religions) does not exist. This does not make them correct.

I have never said God cannot exist. I say the God of the bible either doesn't exist, or is misrepresented to the point he/she/it doesn't exist in the manner portrayed. I fail to see a convincing argument to the contrary and whether the result of degenerative cognative functions brought about by the degenerative lifestyle mentioned , it is my opinion. If so sure you are right, good on you, you have reason to be happy. Though I doubt you will ever offer genuine proof of the object of your beliefs.