Are you fooling yourself ?

reply to post by BillfromCovina


Well all I can do about that is apologize and hope you accept. I did mention I'm slow at the top of the last page.
Sorry I missed you. But the South Park and references to hollywood don't prove anything reguarding the existence of Christ. It does give insight to the conspiracy to make people believe Christ is just a joke and didn't exist. That not many will even deny exists. When even our calendar is is based on him. So I'll give you all my attention from here until I have you to the point you can't stand it anymore. Hows that?

reply to post by InshaAllah


How well could you comprehend a complicated book as the Bible at 8 . The answer you were hunting was No I haven't read the bible . I know this Opera was wrong and the Bible is not fun to read and be condemned by for your fleshly sins . Most Christians just can't stand the evil in this country . The body mutilation that some call cool or what ever is sickening to me . There is only one way to the Father and it is through the blood sacrifice of Jesus . It is appointed unto every man to die once but the second death is for the un saved . The fact is you found religion . But you might as well be paying homage to a refrigerator if Jesus is not at the center of your faith . The Muslims respect Jesus as the truth and life but the have called him a liar when he showed himself as the son of God .The Jews deny him also but they were blinded so the Gentile could receive salvation . The Bible says every knee shall bow to Jesus but it will be too late for you then . Read the book .

reply to post by SimonPeter


Only by dieing can we ever defeat death.

Or

Nobody gets out of here alive because the wages of sin is death.

reply to post by randyvs

You started out the post by calling out people who didn't believe in Christ by stating we were ignorant and fooling ourselves. I decided to take up your challenge and asked you to clarify a few things which you decided to avoid. Is it true that the media is used to influence and persuade you? Absolutely, but because groups are promoting their beliefs does not prove Christ ever existed. I can list many more movies, media, and government organizations that promote Judeo-Christian beliefs.

Originally posted by BillfromCovina
reply to post by randyvs

 

You started out the post by calling out people who didn't believe in Christ by stating we were ignorant and fooling ourselves. I decided to take up your challenge and asked you to clarify a few things which you decided to avoid. Is it true that the media is used to influence and persuade you? Absolutely, but because groups are promoting their beliefs does not prove Christ ever existed. I can list many more movies, media, and government organizations that promote Judeo-Christian beliefs.

edit on 3-10-2011 by BillfromCovina because: clarification

I'm not sure you're being rational. Did you miss this some how ?

Sorry I missed you. But the South Park and references to hollywood don't prove anything reguarding the existence of Christ. It does give insight to the conspiracy to make people believe Christ is just a joke and didn't exist. That not many will even deny exists. When even our calendar is is based on him. So I'll give you all my attention from here until I have you to the point you can't stand it anymore. Hows that?

No, you assume I made some kind of choice. Without any evidence of that at all. In fact, if you re suggesting that I'm lying, at least be straight about it ?

If you believe Christ didn't exist ? That is ignorant IMO. If you want proof of your ignorance I don't have any.
This one example of ignorance doesn't constitute any allogation beyond itself. I can't claim you are ignorant.
Just that you are being ignorant, about the existence of Christ. As for fooling yourself ? You are. period.
Why?
Let me say it like this out of my own interest to see where it takes us.

Because every new baby born into this world, is proof that God isn't ready to give up on his most cherished
creation. Man. Which is why everything is going by the book. You will see very soon the disappearance of cash.
By the book. Isreal reborn as a nation in one day. The whole world seen it and knows it happened. By the book.
Although in two thousand years peeps may be able to convince themselves that it didn't. But that won't even be possible. Why ? Because everything is going by the book.

Originally posted by BillfromCovina
reply to post by whyamIhere

 

The Dead Sea Scrolls do not mention Jesus from the Bible. The Quran was written 600 years after the supposed birth. Tacitus reference was at least 50 years after the death and he was not a contemporary.

Poppycock

reply to post by whyamIhere


I will say my last peace here. I was going for a more "universal" approach instead of a religious approach. "Anyone" that lives til this day could be a savior of life, you could either save a life or you can take a life. It goes both ways. I am not a religious person, but I do believe in GOD, and whatever I think is right to help people move on then its obviously a good thing, not something bad. Like Yin and Yang you are going to have good, and yet you will have bad. Only a person can decide if they think what they did is good or what they did was bad...

reply to post by Q:1984A:1776


Thanks for that awesome movie link. I can't believe I've never seen it before. Wonderful!

I don't believe that Jesus Christ ever existed. I do believe a man, who was the son of a carpenter, made a huge impression. I think he was a dynamic teacher of the secrets Jewish mystism, and was a controversial figure.

I don't believe that he was born of a virgin, the son of god, died for my sins, was the savior of the world or was resurrected.

I don't see how the calender proves anything at all.

Originally posted by BillfromCovina
Ok, I will play. I do not believe that the person described in the Bible ever existed. Please tell me who you are talking about and what was his real name? Since you bring up the calendar and it is so important, what day was he born and what year? If you did not have a book that you were told to believe, on pain of eternal punishment (brain washing), why would it be important?

You know who I'm talking about. The same as everyone on the planet knows. Because you do not believe, doesn't mean you don't know.

Why ask questions you know have no real answer ? Now I remember why I blew you off. Damnation is separation from God. The second death is what you believe in. For you this life will end and then judgement with
your existence ending just as you believe it will. After a quick look at you could have had and I don't think that will be easy for you. But God is merciful. No one burns forever. The second death is spiritual death. Everything you ve always dreamed of.

Ample proof for the crucifixion and death of Jesus Christ.
Let me suggest a 4 part test for determining the credibility of witnesses. It is based on David Hume's criteria.
1) Do the witnesses contradict each other?
2) Are there a sufficient number of witnesses?
3) Were the witnesses truthful?
4) Were they non-prejudicial?
Part #1. The answer to this question is the witnesses do not contradict each other. The Christian, Roman, and Jewish witnesses all agree that Jesus was crucified.
Part #2. There is indeed a sufficient number of witnesses. Several witnesses from Christian sources, and two witnesses from Roman and Jewish sources have been presented. There are actually more witnesses that could be mentioned, but this is enough.
Part #3. The witnesses were truthful. There is no documented evidence contradicting what the witnesses presented. All of the early sources that mention Jesus' death, all state that He was crucified.
Part #4. A case could be made for the Christian sources being prejudicial; however, they were Christians because they witnessed Christ's death AND CHRIST'S RESURRECTION. The Jewish and Roman witnesses were clearly not prejudicial.

reply to post by randyvs


Randy, but what if the cross is a metaphor to the cross roads? When you say someone was at the crossroads and they made a decision that depended on their own well being, but to save others, and they ended up dying because of it. Someone who made a choice for doing good, but ended up being taken away by the evil forces in life, because they felt that was going against what they believed in. If anything Martin Luther King was the Jesus Christ of modern day, because he fought for what he thought was right and it was right, because all he wanted was equality among the people, but sadly it cost his life.

Originally posted by randyvs


If you believe Christ didn't exist ? That is ignorant IMO. If you want proof of your ignorance I don't have any.
This one example of ignorance doesn't constitute any allogation beyond itself. I can't claim you are ignorant.
Just that you are being ignorant, about the existence of Christ. As for fooling yourself ? You are. period.

To be ignorant of something means I lack the necessary knowledge. Since you are making that claim, you should have the necessary knowledge to fill in those gaps. It would be easy for you to prove my ignorance if you had the knowledge. This means that you have no proof for anything that could prove the existence of Christ and you will not be able to back up your claim throughout this thread.

You claim that the calendar somehow proves his existence. In response, I asked you when this person was born and in what year. You have continually avoided answering that. You next make a claim that a baby being born proves that your god exists. I really don't understand that. Maybe its just my ignorance. Israel and its existence also does not prove anything you are saying. None of the Bible's prophecies are accurate and I believe in other threads I have debunked them.

Let me get your thread back on track for you. If you want to claim that Hollywood and the media are being used to debunk Christ and ridicule him, then lets just stick to that theme. With all the media's power they are not doing a very good job of what you are claiming. For the one show that you have so far listed to ridicule the belief in Christ, how many shows and programming on TV promote the belief in Christ? How many stations are religious programs 24/7? What programming on TV is used to debunk Christ? If you want to start listing movies, I can list 100s of movies that promote the belief in Christ and the Bible to the very few that try and debunk or ridicule him. I will answer any further posts by you tomorrow afternoon.

Originally posted by randyvs

Ample proof for the crucifixion and death of Jesus Christ.
Let me suggest a 4 part test for determining the credibility of witnesses. It is based on David Hume's criteria.
1) Do the witnesses contradict each other?
2) Are there a sufficient number of witnesses?
3) Were the witnesses truthful?
4) Were they non-prejudicial?
Part #1. The answer to this question is the witnesses do not contradict each other. The Christian, Roman, and Jewish witnesses all agree that Jesus was crucified.
Part #2. There is indeed a sufficient number of witnesses. Several witnesses from Christian sources, and two witnesses from Roman and Jewish sources have been presented. There are actually more witnesses that could be mentioned, but this is enough.
Part #3. The witnesses were truthful. There is no documented evidence contradicting what the witnesses presented. All of the early sources that mention Jesus' death, all state that He was crucified.
Part #4. A case could be made for the Christian sources being prejudicial; however, they were Christians because they witnessed Christ's death AND CHRIST'S RESURRECTION. The Jewish and Roman witnesses were clearly not prejudicial.

If you really need me to debunk the crucifixion I can do that. While we are at it, I can throw in the resurrection for good measure. I believe this may be throwing this thread off but since you were the author I am willing to go along. Otherwise we can just stick to the media. I will answer your 4 questions tomorrow. Please list what Bible you want to use.

reply to post by whyamIhere

Alright.

The oldest version of the christian Bible are the Codex Vaticanus and the Codex Sinaiticus, both dated back to the middle of the 4th century CE.

The oldest version of the Quran are the Sana'a manuscripts, dated to 645-690 CE.

The oldest version of the Hebrew Bible are the Aleppo Codex (dated to ~920 CE) and the Leningrad Codex (dated to ~1008 CE).


So none of the above can be considered as a historically accurate reference to Jesus Christ at all.


The biblical manuscripts found among the Dead Sea Scrolls are indeed dated back to the 2nd century BCE... but do not contain any references to Jesus Christ.

reply to post by randyvs

Originally posted by randyvs
reply to post by Colcurious

 

I did try to get to your post a lot sooner than I did. I got knocked off line and had to reboot and start over. Apologies.

Cornelius Tacitus is a reference to find some arguable scholarly evidence for the existence of Christ.

No problem

Cornelius Tacitus is mentioning a mass execution of Christians (~64 CE) in a passage of his Annals about the reign of Nero, written ~116 CE.
Thats 52 years after the events in rome took place... when he (Tacitus) was 6 years old and can hardly be considered as a historically accurate documentation of Jesus Christ himself.

Originally posted by whyamIhere

Originally posted by BillfromCovina
reply to post by whyamIhere

 

The Dead Sea Scrolls do not mention Jesus from the Bible. The Quran was written 600 years after the supposed birth. Tacitus reference was at least 50 years after the death and he was not a contemporary.

Poppycock

I love your one word answer. Not only do the Dead Sea Scrolls not mention Jesus from the Bible they also help to disprove him. The Qumram community that wrote the scrolls existed into the time frame when Jesus was supposed to live. The scrolls start from about 200 BC. They do not mention him or his followers.

Originally posted by BillfromCovina

Originally posted by whyamIhere

Originally posted by BillfromCovina
reply to post by whyamIhere

 

The Dead Sea Scrolls do not mention Jesus from the Bible. The Quran was written 600 years after the supposed birth. Tacitus reference was at least 50 years after the death and he was not a contemporary.

Poppycock

I love your one word answer. Not only do the Dead Sea Scrolls not mention Jesus from the Bible they also help to disprove him. The Qumram community that wrote the scrolls existed into the time frame when Jesus was supposed to live. The scrolls start from about 200 BC. They do not mention him or his followers.

edit on 4-10-2011 by BillfromCovina because: added sentence for clarity

I will not be baited into an argument about whether Jesus existed.

It's just a non starter for me.

I am sure you will find the fight you are looking for.

It just won't be with me...

reply to post by BillfromCovina


As far as the evidence goes on Tacitus I did mention it was arguable. The weakest point in any ancient history
is what ? The numbers. Always. So you can argue good points I'm sure. But although I might be an edumacated
boob. I'm not exactly a novice to this forum. So, your use of the word debuink does sound frightening. Even though I've heard it before.

Originally posted by KonquestAbySS
reply to post by randyvs

 

Randy, but what if the cross is a metaphor to the cross roads? When you say someone was at the crossroads and they made a decision that depended on their own well being, but to save others, and they ended up dying because of it. Someone who made a choice for doing good, but ended up being taken away by the evil forces in life, because they felt that was going against what they believed in. If anything Martin Luther King was the Jesus Christ of modern day, because he fought for what he thought was right and it was right, because all he wanted was equality among the people, but sadly it cost his life.

edit on 4-10-2011 by KonquestAbySS because: (no reason given)

Look at what you've written here. Why would a metaphor be used here. Was it a metaphor for the thousands of Christians nailed to wood along the Apian way ? How about the skeletol remains with a Roman nail still in heel today. Doesn't appear to be a meta phor him/her. Reaching and falling off the latter if you ask me.

Then you come at me, using the exact same scenario, of some one in recent history, who was threatening to TPTB
and ended up murdered for it ? You just ignore the correlation and go with some theory, about a metaphor ?
Get real.
Sorry, but recent history back to Lincoln, is in harmony with exactly what happen to my Hero, my Friend. my King, Jesus Christ. The educated people of the world today, have been fed lies by the same group that keep us
all in slavery. The same that that killed Martin, Bobby, John, Abe all the way back to Christ and possibly farther..You havn't even considered what might be going on here or how important it all is.
I can show you all , the lies all the influence you've subjected yourselves to. I can lead thousands of horses to living waters myself. Doesn't mean any will drink. You just don't get it. So to think you can debunk what I believe to the core. No one stands a chance.


Click on you tube link to watch.
Two things we can do with out on the web Facebook and You Tube.
They both have gotten so screwed up.

Originally posted by randyvs
That Christ never existed. I, hopefully with the help of others, will deny this ignorance.

No doubt, many of you want to believe this, because it makes life easier
for you. Very weak, but I leave you to your ignorance.

Well that's it, you've just won me. I'm off to Church!!!

A man known far and wide for his wondrous works, even by high priests and the Roman Procurator. Followed by multitudes, performing miracles, the sick and the lame etc. In a time and place where historians have left detailed accounts. Yet not one person bothered to leave any sort of hint, let alone direct mention even of his mere existence. Until many decades later (possibly in the next century) Gospels written by unknown sources (in Greek?), giving often contradictory accounts of supernatural events, by people who could not have been disciples and unlikely to have enountered any such person. Hmmm, that's convincing.

There is also the fact that the feats accredited to him could not have happened due to certain inconvenient facts of medicine, physics and biology. Though anything is possible in the realm of myths.

You do realise that you can only really base your assertions on faith? This itself is completely you prerogative, it will never make it a fact though. The evidence that would make it a fact does not exist.

A person could have existed in the first century that the myths were based on. Perhaps some charlatan Rabbi. There is no chance that the person as portrayed in the Gospels existed, however.

How are you by the way, Randy?

Originally posted by Adaven

Originally posted by randyvs

So let the games begin with this very simple fact. The calendar you look at every time you need the date,
is the only proof you need, to know that Christ lived and died, just as the gospels say he did. Christ is the
apex of time before and after his death. His death and resurrection are the centerpiece in the showcase
of history. Not only proving his existence, but also indicating that what he did for us, is the most important
thing to date in human history.

edit on 3-10-2011 by randyvs because: To correct typo.

Hmm.. okay... looking at the calendar:

Sunday (Sunna's Day - Germanic Goddess)
Monday (Mani's Day - Germanic God)
Tuesday (Tyr's Day - Germanic God)
Wednesday (Odin's Day - Germanic God)
Thursday (Thor's Day - Germanic God)
Friday (Frigga's Day - Germanic Goddess)

I like to add...
January = Janus, the God of Doors
March = Mars, the God of War
May = Maia, the Goddess of Growth

reply to post by RedParrotHead


Wow that stuff all matters. Pagan influence can be seen everywhere in the world on the moon in Nasa.Debunk that. Doesn't mean a damn thing compared to Christ marking time.

Cogito
Salutations
I'm real good. Thanks for asking. How about yourself?

Well that's it, you've just won me. I'm off to Church!!!

Why? I mean, why would you go to church ? Or even think there is something funny there ? I might understand you going there and laughing at everyone. Hey there's an idea, do that if you want to show some real cahounnies. Have someone go with and record it. Then post it so I can laugh with you. At least we would both know what was funny. Like I just said, horses to water don't have to drink. What you do with the rope you've been given is up to you. But free will may not be the best thing for some or most likely many. You will reap what you sow in the my friend. That isn't a threat either. It's just what I know.