Knesset to vote on annexing West Bank

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posted on Sep, 29 2011 @ 12:29 PM
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reply to post by Lemon.Fresh
 




One and a half million Arabs live in Israel, constituting about 20 percent of that country's population. They have the same rights as all other Israeli citizens.




Your first point is epic fail, The same rights? Do all Israelis get subjected to the same checkpoints that most Arabs do? I know for a fact that is not the case. You really need to research more before you post nonsense. It saves you embarrassment. In fact, this statement you have made is an utter complete lie. Israel is an apartheid state just like South Africa. The checkpoints that Arabs are subject too is a perfect example. They are discriminated on their religion and skin color. That is Apartheid. They are caged in walls. They DO NOT possess the same rights as Israelis.

And the fact that you mentioned a couple Arab politicians does not justify the inhumane treatment of Palestinians. Using your logic it's okay to bulldoze whole neighborhoods, and systematically discriminate against Palestinians because they allow a few Arabs to be politicians. How much do you want to bet those Arabs put in those positions were bought and paid for by the Zionists and would have never been put into power if they had the rights of the Palestinians people on their agenda.

Your useless deflections do not change the fact that Israel is an Apartheid state. That isn't even the topic of the thread but I felt obligated to educate you. You're welcome.
edit on 29-9-2011 by Corruption Exposed because: (no reason given)




posted on Sep, 29 2011 @ 12:29 PM
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Originally posted by Britguy
It seems, Lemon.Fresh, that a simple analogy to your assertion that Israel owns the land, would also apply if I were to turn up one day, march you and any family members off your property at gunpoint - maybe shoot someone just to drive home the point of new ownership - and declare myself owner.


You fail at analogies.

I own my land.

A more apt analogy would be my landlord kicking me out to move you in.

So are you going to tell me what country owns the West Bank?



See, simply declaring that Israel owns the land sidesteps, or even ignores, how they got it in the first place, which was through terrorism and murder.


Hmmm. I never said Israel owns the land, and I do not believe that they do. Nice of you to put words in my mouth, though.

As for how they got it . . . that is recorded in history. Looks to me like you need to brush up on it.


Oh, and the figures you posted showing the increased Arab population in some areas..... ever wonder where all those displaced Palestinians went (those that weren't murdered)? They didn't just disappear - much to the annoyance of the Israelis - they just moved into ever larger enclaves as their land was stolen from under them.


That may be so, but the fact still stands that simple math shows that there is no ethnic cleansing.

Nice try, though.



posted on Sep, 29 2011 @ 12:30 PM
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reply to post by Corruption Exposed
 


Please show me where this factual evidence is.

Direct link please.



posted on Sep, 29 2011 @ 12:33 PM
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Originally posted by gravitational
Corruption Exposed's evasive answers reminded of this video:



I have not evaded any questions. I have answered every single one that has been posed to me. If Lemon would have read my OP he would get the answer to his first question. I specifically answered all his other questions too. Meanwhile he avoids mine.

Gravitational, how about contributing to the thread. Your post was not very on topic, it seemed more like a personal attack. Grow up!



posted on Sep, 29 2011 @ 12:34 PM
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Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh
reply to post by Corruption Exposed
 


Please show me where this factual evidence is.

Direct link please.


Factual evidence and direct link for what? Incomplete questions are difficult to answer. It's funny how you accuse me of things that you yourself are guilty of. You certainly have a spot secured in Israeli politics


Ever thought of a career change?



posted on Sep, 29 2011 @ 12:38 PM
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reply to post by Lemon.Fresh
 


Ah! So you now state that Israel doesn't own the land?
I'm not putting words in your mouth here at all, but you seemed to be suggesting, from you question about who owns the land, that Israel is the owner. Isn't that a little contradictory?



posted on Sep, 29 2011 @ 12:49 PM
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Originally posted by Corruption Exposed

Originally posted by gravitational
Corruption Exposed's evasive answers reminded of this video:



I have not evaded any questions. I have answered every single one that has been posed to me. If Lemon would have read my OP he would get the answer to his first question. I specifically answered all his other questions too. Meanwhile he avoids mine.

Gravitational, how about contributing to the thread. Your post was not very on topic, it seemed more like a personal attack. Grow up!


And still you haven't answered simple questions. What country does the land belong to?
What facts do you have to contradict what Lemon fresh wrote about ethnic cleansing. The numbers given tell a different story than yours. What facts do you have concerning the apartheid claim, because so far you have proven nothing except your ability to make bold impassioned statements with nothing to back them up.

So far, you look exactly like that cartoon. Lots of empty words.



posted on Sep, 29 2011 @ 12:50 PM
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Originally posted by Britguy
reply to post by Lemon.Fresh
 


Ah! So you now state that Israel doesn't own the land?
I'm not putting words in your mouth here at all, but you seemed to be suggesting, from you question about who owns the land, that Israel is the owner. Isn't that a little contradictory?






I have given up trying to get any logical debate out of him. The futility in his attempts to justify the Israeli Apartheid state's actions are a clear reminder that he cannot be reasoned with. His contradictions won't help us take him seriously either.

I gave up when he started ignoring my answers and accusing me of not answering him. I'm dizzy from having to post my last few responses. Mind numbing to say the least.

As I previously stated, if Israel "owned " the land there would already be settlements. Due to the fact Israel is butthurt over the bid for UN membership and the recent protests that include lack of housing , Israel has decided they are going to steal even more land from the Palestinians.

And of course the usual suspects will in full effect trying to justify these actions with lie tainted propaganda.
edit on 29-9-2011 by Corruption Exposed because: (no reason given)
edit on 29-9-2011 by Corruption Exposed because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 29 2011 @ 12:56 PM
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Originally posted by Corruption Exposed
reply to post by Lemon.Fresh
 




One and a half million Arabs live in Israel, constituting about 20 percent of that country's population. They have the same rights as all other Israeli citizens.




Your first point is epic fail, The same rights? Do all Israelis get subjected to the same checkpoints that most Arabs do? I know for a fact that is not the case. You really need to research more before you post nonsense. It saves you embarrassment. In fact, this statement you have made is an utter complete lie. Israel is an apartheid state just like South Africa.


One and a half million Arabs live in Israel, constituting about 20 percent of that country's population. They have the same rights as all other Israeli citizens.




Your first point is epic fail, The same rights? Do all Israelis get subjected to the same checkpoints that most Arabs do?


Source?


I know for a fact that is not the case. You really need to research more before you post nonsense. It saves you embarrassment.


I am not embarrassed in the slightest. Rather annoyed at the lack of evidence of the BS you are spewing.


In fact, this statement you have made is an utter complete lie.


Care to back that up with facts? You keep repeating the same tripe with no evidence.

A link or two would be nice.


Israel is an apartheid state just like South Africa.


OMG. You can't be serious. I will get to that in my next post. No room here.


The checkpoints that Arabs are subject too is a perfect example.


Which checkpoints. Please give me a link.


They are discriminated on their religion and skin color.


Again, proof?


That is Apartheid.


No, that is discrimination.

Please refer to the definition of apartheid that I gave you.


They are caged in walls.


Arabs in Israel are caged in walls?



Source?


They DO NOT possess the same rights as Israelis.


For example . . . .?


And the fact that you mentioned a couple Arab politicians does not justify the inhumane treatment of Palestinians.



Wait, wait, wait. Palestinians are not citizens of Israel. Therefore, the do not get the same rights. Not rocket science here, buddy.

And if Arabs in Israel have every right as Jews, it logically can't be an apartheid or ethnic cleansing.


Using your logic it's okay to bulldoze whole neighborhoods, and systematically discriminate against Palestinians because they allow a few Arabs to be politicians.


Palestinians are not part of Israel, so they don't get the benefits of being a citizen.

I know that is deep stuff, but I have high hopes that you may be able to grasp at least that concept.


How much do you want to bet those Arabs put in those positions were bought and paid for by the Zionists and would have never been put into power if they had the rights of the Palestinians people on their agenda.

. . .


Ahhh . . . more supposition without supporting facts



posted on Sep, 29 2011 @ 12:58 PM
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Israel is an apartheid state just like South Africa.



1. Blacks, Coloreds, Indians, Malays and Chinese were legally classified as “Non-Europeans” and did not have the vote in apartheid South Africa. Neither in Municipal, Provincial nor Government elections.

Israel’s Arab citizens, some 20% of the population, have always enjoyed equal voting rights. Eleven Arabs sit in Israel’s Knesset.

2. Non-Europeans exclusively had to carry a “Pass Book”. (Identity books were introduced for Europeans round about 1976.) Employers had to sign the pass books monthly. Pass book infringements by blacks led to jail sentences and often to deportation to the black homelands.

All citizens and legal residents of Israel carry an identity card as required by law.

3. Job Reservation laws kept non-Europeans from a wide range of jobs.

No discrimination of this kind has ever existed in Israel’s democratic Jewish State.

4. There was free education for whites till matriculation. Not so for blacks whose educational prowess was strictly limited by an oppressive Bantu Education Act.

All school going children in Israel are entitled to publicly subsidized education till matriculation. No racial distinctions whatever are made.

5.Only one university was established for Blacks in South Africa, at Fort Hare.

In addition to several Arab universities which Israel established in the predominantly Arab areas, Arab students may study at any university in Israel.

6. Black-white sex was a serious jail time crime. Sex detectives were even employed to catch offending parties in flagrante delicto .

Legal sex apartheid in democratic Israel? You must be joking.

7. Medical services for non-Europeans were both restricted and segregated.

Arab citizens are members of all the major Medical Service Organizations and benefit equally from government subsidized medical services.

8. Hospitals were largely segregated or had segregated wards. White hospitals were on a par with any in the western world. But black hospitals were under funded, under staffed, and few. Ambulances were also segregated. A "white" ambulance could not take a black to hospital.

Not the Israeli way. Israeli Arabs get the full treatment in all State hospitals.

9. Non-Europeans “could not be employed in any of the skilled trades; they cannot become engineers, accountants or pharmacists. . .. The Civil Service is closed to non-Europeans, as are also the technical colleges and most of the universities. They may not use the libraries, cinemas, public transport, public conveniences, post offices . . ..” [From Prof. Deborah Posel’s THE MAKING OF APARTHEID.]

Arabs can do everything in Israel which non-Europeans in South Africa could not.

10. For many decades blacks had to observe a 9 p.m. curfew or face arrest, jail sentences and deportation.

Absolutely unheard of in democratic Israel.

11. No mixed sport was allowed – by law.

No such law ever in democratic Israel.

12. Parks and recreational areas provided benches for people to rest. Benches were painted with “Europeans Only” signs. I never saw a bench marked for non-Europeans nor a park.

An unimaginable insult in democratic Israel.

13.Non-Europeans were not permitted to use the main entrance to buildings. They had to use the “tradesmen’s” entrance at back.

An unheard of apartheid stricture in democratic Israel.

14. Black South Africans were given half the pension allocated to whites. They were forbidden membership in trade unions (until the 1980s). Strikes were banned and strikers severely repressed.

No such discrimination in democratic Israel. Not only are pensions allocated equally to all citizens but Arabs benefit fully from monthly child allowances to parents of large families.

15. Libraries, public swimming pools and beaches were racially segregated. Even so there were practically no black pools or libraries.

No such segregation in democratic Israel.

Source



The facts show that you are quite wrong.

So . . . what country owns the land?



posted on Sep, 29 2011 @ 01:00 PM
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Originally posted by Britguy
reply to post by Lemon.Fresh
 


Ah! So you now state that Israel doesn't own the land?


I never stated that they did.

If you claim I do, please show me where I stated that.

All I did was ask a question, which no one has answered thus far.


I'm not putting words in your mouth here at all, but you seemed to be suggesting, from you question about who owns the land, that Israel is the owner. Isn't that a little contradictory?




Nope. How is it contradictory to ask a simple question? People should not assume so much.



posted on Sep, 29 2011 @ 01:08 PM
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Originally posted by Corruption Exposed
. . .
I have given up trying to get any logical debate out of him.


Logical?

Your logical algorithm must be on the fritz.

You have yet to give straight forward answers to TWO questions, and have made numerous serious claims without supporting evidence.

I on the other hand, have provided facts and sources.

Your version of logic is quite depressing. Like a child saying that he is right because he says he is right.

Note, he usually isn't.


The futility in his attempts to justify the Israeli Apartheid state's actions are a clear reminder that he cannot be reasoned with.


And yet you have failed to show EXACTLY and how the definition that even you agree with, relates to Israel.



His contradictions won't help us take him seriously either.


Yay for personal attacks. I believe that ATS has a policy against ad hominem.

I will ignore it for now. DO you care to show me EXACTLY where I have contradicted myself?


I gave up when he started ignoring my answers and accusing me of not answering him. I'm dizzy from having to post my last few responses. Mind numbing to say the least.


Apologies that you can't keep up with me.

I answered one of your questions, as I had already answered it before you even asked it.

As for your other question, I will answer as soon as you give me a straight forward no-nonsense answer to my original question (which I asked first, by the way).



As I previously stated, if Israel "owned " the land there would already be settlements. Due to the fact Israel is butthurt over the bid for UN membership and the recent protests that include lack of housing , Israel has decided they are going to steal even more land from the Palestinians.


What country owns the land?


And of course the usual suspects will in full effect trying to justify these actions with lie tainted propaganda.
edit on 29-9-2011 by Corruption Exposed because: (no reason given)
edit on 29-9-2011 by Corruption Exposed because: (no reason given)


Please, do show me where I have committed a lie.



posted on Sep, 29 2011 @ 01:17 PM
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reply to post by Lemon.Fresh
 


Your own definition of Apartheid:



Crime of Apartheid is crimes against humanity "committed in the context of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime."


Would forcing the natives of a land to go through military checkpoints due to not being a certain religion or skin color to get from point A to point B not fall under "systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups"? Sounds like one of the characteristics of Apartheid to me.

They punish and mistreat the people of Palestine while maintaining their regime. That also falls under Apartheid. Please don't tell me you don't believe there are any checkpoints. I guarantee you that an Israeli Jew will get through quicker than a Muslim Arab. They have cards that identify these things. Don't tell me that is the same rights as Israelis.

Foreigners that visit Israel get a little pass that allows them to get through the checkpoints just as quick as the Israelis do. Trust me on that one. You probably won't though. Don't ask for sources until you yourself can provide a valid source or answer some of my questions. They don't want the visitors to see how horribly they treat the Arabs.

Your source to that non-apartheid state site was laughable. And yes I have answered who owns the country of Palestine. Palestine does. Don't tell me Palestine never existed either. You are already so full of lies you are lucky I am even responding to you.

I can't help but feel we are going in circles here. Surely you can see the childishness in your avoiding my simple questions as you incorrectly accuse me of not answering yours.

I have a feeling you are going to ask for sources for what I have told you, even though you know what I say is true. I have no problem backing up my claims, as long as you participate in an adult manner. Until you answer a few of the questions I have posed to you, I will ignore you. No offense.

I'm looking forward to hearing from you so we can continue this discussion. Just stop playing games.
edit on 29-9-2011 by Corruption Exposed because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 29 2011 @ 01:52 PM
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Originally posted by Corruption Exposed
reply to post by Lemon.Fresh
 


Your own definition of Apartheid:



Crime of Apartheid is crimes against humanity "committed in the context of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime."


Would forcing the natives of a land to go through military checkpoints due to not being a certain religion to get from point A to point B not fall under "systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups"? Sounds like one of the characteristics of Apartheid to me.


Because of religion? What religion would that be?


They punish and mistreat the people of Palestine while maintaining their regime. That also falls under Apartheid.


The Palestinians are not citizens, and never have been. They are more than welcome to become citizens.

How do you come about thinking that a country should give everyone the rights held by citizens?

While Israel is not completely innocent of mistreatment, neither are the Palestinians.

So we could conversely say that Palestinians are trying to go apartheid on Israel. Yes?


Please don't tell me you don't believe there are any checkpoints.


I know there are many. Last I heard it was 90 something in the West Bank.


I guarantee you that an Israeli Jew will get through quicker than a Muslim Arab.


Duh. Citizenship. An Israeli Arab will get through pretty easily as well.


They have cards that identify these things.


Yep. It is called an ID card, and all Israeli citizens have them. Want one? Become a citizen.


Don't tell me that is the same rights as Israelis.


Obviously not, because they are not Israeli.

Simple logic here. Cambodians don't have the same rights as Americans either.

Therefore USA is apartheid?


Foreigners that visit Israel get a little pass that allows them to get through the checkpoints just as quick as the Israelis do.


For trusted nations only, which are generally European or American.


Trust me on that one. You probably won't though.


Oh, I know.


Don't ask for sources until you yourself can provide a valid source or answer some of my questions. They don't want the visitors to see how horribly they treat the Arabs.


lolololol.

Circular logic.

I am an invisible man. But I can't show you because if someone looks at me, I become visible again.


Your source to that non-apartheid state site was laughable.


I know. I was laughing heartily at how easy it is to prove you wrong.

SO are you going to rebut the facts presented, or only attack the source?


And yes I have answered who owns the country of Palestine. Palestine does.


About damn time. Thank you for a straight answer.


Don't tell me Palestine never existed either.


Oh, it has existed.

It has never been sovereign, though, as history shows us.

So Palestine does not own the land.

So let's try this again.

What country owns the land?

As simple glance through history can give you the answer.


You are already so full of lies


That is twice you have accused me of that.

Either show me directly where I have lied, or you are getting reported.

Put up or shut up.


you are lucky I am even responding to you.


Must be that penny I picked up today.


I can't help but feel we are going in circles here.


No circles here. Just trying to get a straight answer. Like pulling nails.


Surely you can see the childishness in your avoiding my simple questions as you incorrectly accuse me of not answering yours.


Bizarro world returns?


I have a feeling you are going to ask for sources for what I have told you, even though you know what I say is true.


Nope. No sources needed, as you have not made anymore outrageous claims.


I have no problem backing up my claims, as long as you participate in an adult manner.


Oh. I am sorry. Next time I will stick my fingers in my ears and go lalalala I AM RIGHT YOU ARE WRONG lalalalala BECAUSE I SAID SO lalalalala.

Maybe that will bring me up to your adult level.


Until you answer a few of the questions I have posed to you,


Hmmm . . . I answered one of the two. And since you tried, though incorrectly, to answer my original question, I will answer your first one.


I will ignore you. No offense.


Damn. The penny worked again!


. . .Just stop playing games.


Okay. Fine. No more games. No more facts, no more sources. Just circular logic straw man, and a multitude of other fallacies. Agreed?



posted on Sep, 29 2011 @ 01:56 PM
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Originally posted by Corruption Exposed


What is your logic behind these claims of Israel owning that land? If they owned it they would already be on it.


I never said that they owned the land. I said that they have the right to submit the bill.


What they are doing is stealing it from the Palestinians who are the rightful owners.


Since when was Palestine a sovereign state?


Theft is the only word that describes Israeli actions when they steal land.


You can't steal that which does not have an owner.


Do you understand what theft is?


Nah. I am a dunce. Please refresh my memory.


If I steal your land will I therefor be the rightful owner?


Nope. Because I am sovereign over my land. So who is sovereign over Palestine?



posted on Sep, 29 2011 @ 02:10 PM
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Israel is alone. The peace process will not go ANYWHERE because as any remotely knowledgeable person should know, the Arabs are interested in destroying Israel through stages.

Thus, Israel, being alone should act with decisiveness and confidence and shouldnt seek permission from either Arabs or the West to annex the most historically Jewish part of the land of Israel; Judea and Samaria - the so called "westbank" (a term coined and made popular only after 1967, to dejudaize the historical name of the region) .

Annex away. I am completely behind this policy if Israel ever chooses to pursue it. Infact, it would encourage their doing this.
edit on 29-9-2011 by dontreally because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 29 2011 @ 02:13 PM
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reply to post by Lemon.Fresh
 


"If I steal your land will I therefor be the rightful owner?"
what i think he means here,
is when there,,,ARAB,, Grandfathers,,,
sold the deeds to,,the acherage/land,
,which was just desert,,
(stupid Isealies,,hahaha sold worthless piece of desert,,etc,, way back in the old days,,)
and the Isaelies, made it grow,, and blossom,,
they wanted it back.
reneg,, or force the stupid Isealies,with there high tech,, and fancy,, irrigation tech,,,,
too give it back,,,like a spoiled child,,give it back,,,or we'll hurt you,,give it back,,,like a spoiled child,
Israelies, they need a Living God,,
just too keep there strength up,,,
,give it back,,,give it back,,,give it back,,,give it back,,
for 64 long years,, a generation really,, ,give it back,,,give it back,,,give it back,,

for the last time,,live peacefully,, together,,

ya right like thats gonna happen,,



posted on Sep, 29 2011 @ 02:44 PM
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reply to post by Lemon.Fresh
 




Either show me directly where I have lied, or you are getting reported.


Okay, here are a couple of them.



One and a half million Arabs live in Israel, constituting about 20 percent of that country's population. They have the same rights as all other Israeli citizens.


Lie number 1: Arabs do not have the same rights as Israelis. You already admitted the checkpoints exist. They are also restricted from having family members visit them. That is just a couple examples. Do you not admit this is true?



Arabs in Israel live freer lives than Arabs living anywhere in the Arab world. No Arab in any Arab country has the civil rights and personal liberty that Arabs in Israel enjoy.


Lie number 2: Arabs in other countries can usually travel as they please. It is easier for an Egyptian, Jordanian, or even people from the United Arab Emirates to travel abroad and return without incident, compared to a Palestinian. If you don't believe me check with their embassies. The source you provided is once again laughable. If you call white phosphorus shelling and apartheid civil rights and personal liberty you can have it.

I could probably sit here all day and pick your posts apart, but I don't have time to debate Israeli apertheid.

You still going to report me?




posted on Sep, 29 2011 @ 02:53 PM
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reply to post by dontreally
 




Israel is alone.


Israel is not alone. They have an abundance of corrupt nations who support their atrocities.



The peace process will not go ANYWHERE because as any remotely knowledgeable person should know, the Arabs are interested in destroying Israel through stages.


The Arabs are the ones looking for peace through peaceful measures. Israel claims to have extended it's hand to the people of Palestine in the name of peace, but then slaps them cold in the face with the other hand by this announcement of the annexing of the West Bank as a retaliation for the peaceful steps Palestine has taken. Israel scared they will be pressured into forfeiting land while their actual plans are to steal more.



Thus, Israel, being alone should act with decisiveness and confidence and shouldnt seek permission from either Arabs or the West to annex the most historically Jewish part of the land of Israel; Judea and Samaria - the so called "westbank" (a term coined and made popular only after 1967, to dejudaize the historical name of the region) .


That is the poisonous attitude that got everyone here in the first place. You use fictional biblical prophecy as justification for this reasoning which makes it even more difficult to reason with the likes of you.



posted on Sep, 29 2011 @ 03:49 PM
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reply to post by Lemon.Fresh
 


I stumbled upon another one of your contradictions I meant to point out.

Allow me...



One and a half million Arabs live in Israel, constituting about 20 percent of that country's population. They have the same rights as all other Israeli citizens.


and then



The Palestinians are not citizens, and never have been. They are more than welcome to become citizens. er hand by this announcement of the annexing of the West Bank.


Which one is it? Are they or are they not considered citizens who possess the same rights as all other Israelis?

You seem to change your facts in order to help support your debate. Sure we all make mistakes once in a while, but you are utterly changing your story as we go along. Sorry, I don't think that is very honorable. It also makes it difficult to take you seriously.





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