Those who oppose Christ and His messengers will disregard ~ Leave New York City + San Francisco

Originally posted by colbe
Oh, the disbelief in our times. Anything is fine, like Sodom.

1 Timothy 1:9-10
Knowing this, that the law is not made for the just man, but for the unjust and disobedient, for the ungodly, and for sinners, for the wicked and defiled, for murderers of fathers, and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, [10] For fornicators, for them who defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and whatever other thing is contrary to sound doctrine.

If you believe that, then that means you believe anyone who works on Sundays should be killed:
This is a link from the Bible you use:

YOUR SOURCE

"[15] Six days shall you do work: in the seventh day is the sabbath, the rest holy to the Lord. Every one that shall do any work on this day, shall die. "

Anyone that works on Sunday shall die.

Originally posted by gavron

Originally posted by colbe
Oh, the disbelief in our times. Anything is fine, like Sodom.

1 Timothy 1:9-10
Knowing this, that the law is not made for the just man, but for the unjust and disobedient, for the ungodly, and for sinners, for the wicked and defiled, for murderers of fathers, and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, [10] For fornicators, for them who defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and whatever other thing is contrary to sound doctrine.

If you believe that, then that means you believe anyone who works on Sundays should be killed:
This is a link from the Bible you use:

YOUR SOURCE

"[15] Six days shall you do work: in the seventh day is the sabbath, the rest holy to the Lord. Every one that shall do any work on this day, shall die. "

Anyone that works on Sunday shall die.

I hope not.

My girlfriend has to work sundays immediately after she's been to church. Plus if she did then it shows that this God is full of lies and fallacies.

I just had a thought.

People say the devil is a trickster and not to believe him. What if he's the one that Christians, Muslims and Jews worship as God, Allah and a variety of other names?

I mean, it could make more sense, right? Considering the teachings and God's own supposed actions are complete contradictions of themselves.

All who commit sodomy and homosexuality as well as those who worship other religions and work on sundays regardless whether or not they themselves are Christians from a variety of denominations should all die but at the same time, they should all live as God's "soldiers" and will be granted eternal life and luxury.

Maybe you're all worshipping the wrong entity?

Originally posted by gavron
YOUR SOURCE

"[15] Six days shall you do work: in the seventh day is the sabbath, the rest holy to the Lord. Every one that shall do any work on this day, shall die. "

Anyone that works on Sunday shall die.

This is equivalent to what some of the religious leaders of the time were saying to Jesus when he healed a man on the sabbath day. They were attempting to put Jesus into a box and trick him into admitting that he broke the Law. It was a day set aside for men to rest but Jesus showed that it was acceptable to violate tradition sabbath laws when human needs become critical.

"Then Jesus went over to their synagogue, 10 where he noticed a man with a deformed hand. The Pharisees asked Jesus, “Does the law permit a person to work by healing on the Sabbath?” (They were hoping he would say yes, so they could bring charges against him.) 11 And he answered, “If you had a sheep that fell into a well on the Sabbath, wouldn’t you work to pull it out? Of course you would. 12 And how much more valuable is a person than a sheep! Yes, the law permits a person to do good on the Sabbath.” 13 Then he said to the man, “Hold out your hand.” So the man held out his hand, and it was restored, just like the other one! 14 Then the Pharisees called a meeting to plot how to kill Jesus." - Matthew 12:9-14

This event is also accounted for in the gospel of Luke.

"On another Sabbath day, a man with a deformed right hand was in the synagogue while Jesus was teaching. 7 The teachers of religious law and the Pharisees watched Jesus closely. If he healed the man’s hand, they planned to accuse him of working on the Sabbath. 8 But Jesus knew their thoughts. He said to the man with the deformed hand, “Come and stand in front of everyone.” So the man came forward. 9 Then Jesus said to his critics, “I have a question for you. Does the law permit good deeds on the Sabbath, or is it a day for doing evil? Is this a day to save life or to destroy it?” 10 He looked around at them one by one and then said to the man, “Hold out your hand.” So the man held out his hand, and it was restored! 11 At this, the enemies of Jesus were wild with rage and began to discuss what to do with him." - Luke 6:6-11

The sabbath once acted as a day to relieve ourselves of our burdens, but those who know Christ know that this is now possible every day. He took our burdens to the cross. The Pharisees were the kind of people who put religion above grace. Even though he was there to help them, they conspired against him anyway.

What are your needs? Do you consider healing to be a form of work?

reply to post by DarkKnight21


...then again, the man with the deformed hand wasn't dying or anything. Really, he could have made an appt for Monday morning with Jesus's receptionist, and been seen then.

There was no need to actually "heal" his disfigurement that day....essentially he was just showing off.

Originally posted by gavron
reply to post by DarkKnight21

 

There was no need to actually "heal" his disfigurement that day....essentially he was just showing off.

Why do you think Jesus would knowingly condemn himself for a charade? Seems like a lose/lose situation to me.

Originally posted by DarkKnight21

Originally posted by gavron
reply to post by DarkKnight21

 

There was no need to actually "heal" his disfigurement that day....essentially he was just showing off.

Why do you think Jesus would knowingly condemn himself for a charade? Seems like a lose/lose situation to me.

Probably because it's all made up.

Originally posted by aorAki

Originally posted by DarkKnight21

Originally posted by gavron
reply to post by DarkKnight21

 

There was no need to actually "heal" his disfigurement that day....essentially he was just showing off.

Why do you think Jesus would knowingly condemn himself for a charade? Seems like a lose/lose situation to me.

Probably because it's all made up.

In regards to the OP I will not disagree with you. But if we are speaking strictly about the validity and historical accuracy of the scriptures I must ask - all of it?

Are you sure about that?

Even fictions contain elements of fact as anchors, so this fiction contains fact...most notably some of the geographical elements.

Originally posted by DarkKnight21

Originally posted by gavron
reply to post by DarkKnight21

 

There was no need to actually "heal" his disfigurement that day....essentially he was just showing off.

Why do you think Jesus would knowingly condemn himself for a charade? Seems like a lose/lose situation to me.

Bravo!!

And the "love" of Christ, if you know who He is by the "witness" throughout
2000 years, you see how inconsistent human love is, you are drawn
to Jesus.

Originally posted by aorAki
Even fictions contain elements of fact as anchors, so this fiction contains fact...most notably some of the geographical elements.

Not only are many of the geographical claims accurate, but the Bible continues to withstand the test of time because it continues to confirm historical events. One of the of the most fascinating of these was Ezekiel 37's foretelling of Israel's return to existence in a single day, which became a reality in 1948. What we are currently seeing play out today, in my opinion, is a mirror of the events from Ezekiel 38-39. This is known as the War of Gog and Magog and it is among the some of the last of the prophecies left to be fulfilled. Keep watching the headlines and we will know if this mystery comes into fruition.

What happens when fiction starts to turn into fact? Do we accept the notion of increasing coincidences or do we reject it altogether because of its extraordinary claims? Do we entertain the idea that it could be the God of Israel doing exactly what he says he's going to do?

Originally posted by DarkKnight21

Originally posted by aorAki
Even fictions contain elements of fact as anchors, so this fiction contains fact...most notably some of the geographical elements.

Not only are many of the geographical claims accurate, but the Bible continues to withstand the test of time because it continues to confirm historical events. One of the of the most fascinating of these was Ezekiel 37's foretelling of Israel's return to existence in a single day, which became a reality in 1948. What we are currently seeing play out today, in my opinion, is a mirror of the events from Ezekiel 38-39. This is known as the War of Gog and Magog and it is among the some of the last of the prophecies left to be fulfilled. Keep watching the headlines and we will know if this mystery comes into fruition.

What happens when fiction starts to turn into fact? Do we accept the notion of increasing coincidences or do we reject it altogether because of its extraordinary claims? Do we entertain the idea that it could be the God of Israel doing exactly what he says he's going to do?

edit on 1/3/2012 by DarkKnight21 because: (no reason given)

Yes the prophecies foretold in the Old Testament confirmed in the
New Testament.

To those who deny Jesus' presence in the Holy Eucharist.

Jesus spoke of this Truth in John 6, His discourse on the Eucharist, bringing up the manna. The Eucharist is prophesied, prefigured in the Old. How much greater is receiving God Himself in the Eucharist than the physical sustenance of the "manna" in the desert!!

The humility of God.

So then you are confirming those that work on Sunday, the Sabbath, must be put to death?

After all, it was His word....

Or are you only following the scriptures that you believe in, and ignore the rest?

Originally posted by gavron
So then you are confirming those that work on Sunday, the Sabbath, must be put to death?

Yes and no.

I am saying "you shall not murder".

I am also saying "let he who is without sin cast the first stone".

What we are speaking about here is a spiritual death. A sin is an act that separates from God. Why does God "command" us not to lie? Because his nature, his very essence, is truth. The Jews considered the Sabbath holy because it served as a reminder that even God rested. Therefore anyone who worked on the Sabbath went against the very nature of God.

We are given the right notes to play. It is up to us to decide if we will play our own song or harmonize with God's music.

Of course, the Jews actually celebrated the Sabbath on Saturday, not Sunday. Sunday worship is a relatively young idea.

Originally posted by DarkKnight21

Originally posted by gavron
So then you are confirming those that work on Sunday, the Sabbath, must be put to death?

Yes and no.

I am saying "you shall not murder".

I am also saying "let he who is without sin cast the first stone".

What we are speaking about here is a spiritual death. A sin is an act that separates from God. Why does God "command" us not to lie? Because his nature, his very essence, is truth. The Jews considered the Sabbath holy because it served as a reminder that even God rested. Therefore anyone who worked on the Sabbath went against the very nature of God.

We are given the right notes to play. It is up to us to decide to play our own song or harmonize with God's music.

Of course, the Jews actually celebrated the Sabbath on Saturday, not Sunday. Sunday worship is a relatively young idea.

edit on 1/5/2012 by DarkKnight21 because: (no reason given)

DarkKnight, hi,

The Jews celebrated the Sabbath, Christians didn't and their "celebration", their worship of God has been going on every Sunday for 2000 years.

The "first day of the week" as the Gospel states two times are when the first Christians gathered to break bread, the Eucharist. They gathered to worship God on Sunday to honor Our Lord who arose from the dead on
Sunday. Pride has many heretics protesting. We're in the New
Covenant, the Sabbath is now the Lord's Day.

gavron keeps posting that same verse to try and show God is wrong.
It's ridiculous. I actually said the same thing to him, God means a
spiritual death.

He's going to his own spiritual death with his constant mock of the creator.
Wonder why gavron can't come up with a new objection?

Pray, he finds the love of God before his last day. gavron is a major
prodigal son.

Originally posted by colbe

What we are speaking about here is a spiritual death.

Not according to Darkknights quotes. His quote from Matthew 12:9-14 and Luke. clearly said kill.

Again, you seem to be twisting His words to fit your theory. Why is that?

Originally posted by gavron
Again, you seem to be twisting His words to fit your theory. Why is that?

edit on 5-1-2012 by gavron because: (no reason given)

I wondered that myself and it seems to be a habit of a lot of Christians.

It's an unfortunate thing too because that's where confusion and contradiction comes into play.

Definitely on your side though, you've made some good points and so has darkknights (apologies if I got your username wrong) because you two have seemed to be having more of an actual debate while colbe to me feels like the kind to use certain scriptures and twists them to fit his or her own views and seems to be more of a condemner.

reply to post by curious7


The Bible is full of interesting stuff...

You know, if you live in a city that has a buddhist temple, or a Mosque, you must kill everyone there, and burn the entire city to the ground:

Douay-Rheims Bible Deuteronomy chapter 13.

Seriously...and don't even get me started on the chapters that encourage the murder of children.

Originally posted by gavron
Seriously...and don't even get me started on the chapters that encourage the murder of children.

I don't get it. Include one Bible quote and they say you ignore the rest. Include several and they accuse you of twisting His words.

I promise you this is not as confusing and contradicting as you make it out to be.

The Israelites personally knew God to be just, righteous and wise. Aside from knowing God through prayer and individual devotions, many generations of Israelites personally witnessed God's miracles. The generation that fought against the Midianites was the generation that had miraculously escaped from Egypt; the generation that fought the wars in the book of Joshua was only one generation later, and saw the parting of the Jordan River (Josh 3:7-17). Both generations experienced God's provision for them during the Exodus (Dt 29:5; manna was provided until the time of Joshua - Josh 5:12). Finally, Moses explicitly taught the Israelites that God "is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he" (Dt 32:4). These things gave them reason to trust God even when he commanded them to do something they might otherwise refuse to do. Furthermore, they understood that God has the authority to destroy a city, and that the best thing for them to do was to trust someone whose judgment and wisdom are far superior to their own.

Some have argued that the Israelites should have decided that God's command was wrong and refused to carry it out. It is worth noting that God is unchanging (Mal 3:6), so the Israelites would have known that the just and righteous God they knew before was still just and righteous when he issued the command. However, let us suppose for the sake of argument that God could have issued an unjust command; for instance, ordering the Israelites to be sadistic by torturing babies and enjoying their pain. Sadism is inherently evil; there is no possible situation in which it could be right to take pleasure in torturing others. (The Israelites slew people with swords, which would have been one of the quickest ways at the time to kill someone, and were never told to enjoy killing; thus God's commanded genocide was not sadism.) Therefore the Israelites would have been justified in refusing to practice sadism. Killing a person, while often wrong, is not wrong in all situations; for example, it can be justified if necessary for self-defense. That is, it's not automatically wrong for God to issue an order to kill humans. Since the Israelites had good reason to believe in God's moral perfection, omniscience and omnipotence, the best choice for them would be to trust that God had a better understanding than they of the situation itself and the moral rules governing it. The only way for them to be justified in not obeying God's command would be if the command were inherently evil and impossible to justify (though it must be cautioned that humans with their imperfect understanding could incorrectly decide a command was inherently evil).

God never killed out of fun or sport or malice, and he never asked his people to do so either. That would be murder, which goes against the 10 commandments. A perfectly just God demands perfect justice. "Presently put him to death: Not by killing him by private authority, but by informing the magistrate, and proceeding by order of justice."

Originally posted by DarkKnight21
God never killed out of fun or sport or malice, and he never asked his people to do so either.

Oh really? You might tell that to Oza:

Samuel chapter 6 verse 6
[

6] And when they came to the floor of Nachon, Oza put forth his hand to the ark of God, and took hold of it: because the oxen kicked and made it lean aside. [7] And the indignation of the Lord was enkindled against Oza, and he struck him for his rashness: and he died there before the ark of God. [8] And David was grieved because the Lord had struck Oza, and the name of that place was called: The striking of Oza, to this day

So...Oza tries to keep the Ark from tipping due to the oxen kicking the cart.....and God instead of thanking him for steadying the Ark, he stikes him down, killing him.

Or, how about God commanding you to kill children:

Ezekiel chapter 9

[4] And the Lord said to him: Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem: and mark Thau upon the foreheads of the men that sigh, and mourn for all the abominations that are committed in the midst thereof. [5] And to the others he said in my hearing: Go ye after him through the city, and strike: let not your eyes spare, nor be ye moved with pity. [6] Utterly destroy old and young, maidens, children and women: but upon whomsoever you shall see Thau, kill him not, and begin ye at my sanctuary. So they began at the ancient men who were before the house. [7] And he said to them: Defile the house, and ill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew them that were in the city. [8] And the slaughter being ended I was left: and I fell upon my face, and crying, I said: Alas, alas, alas, O Lord God, wilt thou then destroy all the remnant of Israel, by pouring out thy fury upon Jerusalem? [9] And he said to me: The iniquity of the house of Israel, and of Juda, is exceeding great, and the land is filled with blood, and the city is filled with perverseness: for they have said: The Lord hath forsaken the earth, and the Lord seeth not. [10] Therefore neither shall my eye spare, nor will I have pity:

What a loving god, eh?

reply to post by gavron


This was right after God had instructed them the appropriate way to carry/transport the Ark, which they did not actually follow. The incident could have been prevented had they listened to God and not been in a hurry. You can read more about it here.

David, Uzzah, and the Ark of the Covenant

The “Ark” means a box or chest. The pattern of the ark was revealed to Moses in Exodus 25. It was to be made of wood, rectangular in shape, gold plated inside and out. It had a decorative gold border around it forming a rim on the top of the ark. It had a cover made of gold called “the mercy seat”, and matched the dimensions of the ark. At either end of the cover was a hammered gold cherub (angel), with wings outstretched over the plate. You see the creatures as they pull their wings in front of their faces and look down upon the ark. They apparently were small because a solid gold piece would be extremely heavy if it were very large and the ark would be top heavy and awkward to carry. And the ark was mobile. Beneath the plate within the container were three objects: A golden jar that held the manna, Aaron's rod, and the tables of the Covenant. God promised he would meet with the people of the mercy seat. The very Glory of God was shown on this Mercy Seat.

In other words, this ark was Holy. It was set apart to God. So careful with God that in the details of the drawing that he wrote in Exodus 25, he gave the dimensions, he said how it was to be covered, He even talked about how it was to be carried. At the base of each of the four corners was a fixed ring of gold. Through these rings were slipped gold plated poles by which the entire chest was to be carried. Numbers 3,4 and 7 clearly state that handling the tabernacle was to be done by Levites, and it was to be done on their shoulders.

Each one of these things were important to God. Even how the ark was transported from one place to another, because that's where David got into trouble. David thought the best way to move the ark was on a cart (2 Samuel 6:3). So they got a new cart and set the ark on the cart and started to transport it, but something happened. Suddenly there's a death (2 Samuel 6:7). What did Uzzah do to deserve death?

2 Samuel 6:6, "And when they came to Nachon's threshingfloor, Uzzah put forth his hand to the ark of God, and took hold of it; for the oxen shook it."

That's all he did. After all, it's a natural thing to do, if it's going to drop you've got to grab it! But it wouldn't have ever dropped if they would have done it right. What's the right way? The Levites were the ones who were suppose to carry the ark, the poles were to be put through the little ringlets at the bottom of the ark, the poles were to be placed on the shoulders of these specially chosen men, and they were to balance it as they carried it from one place to another. And David didn't do that. He took a convenient route and changed the details to fit the expediency of the hour.

“It doesn't matter what you do, do something, even if it's wrong”. That's the most stupid council I have ever heard. “Do nothing until it's right, then do it with all your might”. That's wise council.

Now here's David standing next to a corpse and he gets mad (2 Samuel 6:8) because of the Lord's outburst against Uzzah. We have David angry at the Lord when, in fact, the Lord was angry at David. Now understand David hasn't done his homework, we often get in trouble when we don't do our homework. We seek the Lord's Will and we reach out on a lark and we want to do “that”, so, in expediency or convenience or because we're in a hurry, we make “that” decision. And the Lord says, “Look, I have written a lot of things in my book about that decision you just made, and I want you to take council from me. That's why it's not working. And if you want to have a heart for me, then you check my Word and you find either precepts or principles, and you go according to that, and I'll make you happy like you won't believe. If you don't, you will be miserable.”

People need to know the right way to do things and to practice them. Shortcuts or grandstand plays almost never work over time, and when they are substituted for careful execution, people are often hurt.

Uzzah undoubtedly meant well. On the surface he did a useful, helpful, even noble thing. But he did not do the right thing, and it cost him his life. In this strange circumstance, brought about because David, the leader, wanted to do things his way, the right thing would have been to let the ark touch the earth instead of Uzzah's sinful hands.

Again, we get to be the judge. We make things as easy or as difficult as we want them to be. "Why do you harden your hearts as the Egyptians and Pharaoh did? When he treated them harshly, did they not send the Israelites out so they could go on their way?" - 1 Samuel 6:6