On France

If they showed the same views that the "media" wants us to see, and that historically for the past 50 years France has favored (though maybe not as much as the media would like).

But if this hypothetical french man expressed such opinions, I'd tell him he's a Nazi to his face...and then tell him you're current government's no better than Vichy France.

"not the same French"
5pof, you make me laugh.

I take you�ve never been to France?
It�s pretty obvious from your postings.
I wouldn�t be surprised if you�re one of the 89% of Americans who don�t even own a passport.
I could sit and tell you about France, but it would mean nothing to you.

People are exactly the same the world over. There are arseholes, there are pricks, there are good people, there are bad, and there are hot chicks too, everywhere the world over.
The more you travel, the more you realise this.

You can bring up things from the 13th century to 'prove' why France is so bad, and your answer to the fact that they helped create your own nation is "not the same French".
People do not suddenly transform into a single evil entity just because they�re under a dictator or an emperor or any other form of Government.

The same way Iraqi's are not all murderous evil baby eaters just because their leader is Saddam.
The same way Americans are not all Facististic right wing Christian fundamentalist blinkered money chasers, just because their leader is.

The Anti French stuff is pretty ironic.
The people who spout it are the very same people who get so worked up about the people who display supposed �Anti- Americanism�.
Is that the way you sort out your problems? You respond in kind until any chance of normal relations is gone? If that is the way you operate I can see you having a lot of enemies in life.

France just stuck their head too high above the parapet in voicing their opposition to the war and received the mantle as the main opponents to it.
As such they were unlucky enough to be taken on as America�s scapegoat for anything that goes wrong. It�s Human nature. The blame has to sit somewhere as long as it�s not with me.

You think you are right in what you say. How many people do you think are going to agree with you from what you�ve written? You advocate the war in Iraq as a quest of liberation from an evil dictator, yet to make your point you write with poison and hatred worthy of Saddam himself. Are we still so blind that we cannot see the cycle of hatred that these things create? If you wish to be free to slander France, then you must expect the French people to fire back bile as poisonous as yours. What happens then? You ratchet up the vitriol to counteract that, then they do the same and we continue ad nausem until any chance of friendly, peaceful relations are right out the window.
The sad thing is, this is the kind of attitude that your Government is taking to foreign policy. You don�t agree with us? You are wrong and a coward as well as a fool. We are fighting for peace in the world, but it shall be a peace of our making, under our terms, created through violence, from our view of what is good for you, based on what is good for us. You don�t like it? Go back to (insert country) and (insert insult based on outdated stereotype).

Originally posted by kegs
People do not suddenly transform into a single evil entity just because they�re under a dictator or an emperor or any other form of Government.

Durrrrrr, THE NAZIS lol. You take one small thing no one really cares about, and BOOM, massive death machine.

WW2 drastically changed the French "mind set".

But then of course I suppose you wouldn't pay any attention because you pay attention only to the individual.

Sadly the individual doesn't COUNT in a country, it is what they do as a WHOLE, and as a WHOLE France is very backwards. They still are Anti-semitic and they still supported the Nazis more than they ever should have.

It's nice you've been all around the world, too bad you didn't pick up a Sociology book along the way.

Do you get your history from the back of a matchbox or something?

Do you really think that every German was a Nazi? That all those who were in the party were members because they agreed with Hitler? You think everyone in Saddams army and party are members because they agree with Saddam? For many people in both cases membership was a matter of life and death, for them and their families.

France is not a backward country. It is probably the most socially progressive country in Europe, far more so than Britain. It also has one of the most modern and advanced infrastructures in Europe. I could give you a million examples of this, but there is no point. I could never change your mind, and you'll probably never go there so why bother.

LoL of course they weren't all "nazis", they were only all nazis while their regime held power.

Once we liberated them many Germans quickly spat upon what the Nazis had done.

But until then, those same Germans would have died for the Nazis, and think it to be the highest honor.

Again, you think it's what the "individual" is...not what the country is.

The country as a whole, was Nazi.

5pof, the point I�m trying to make is that you cannot label an entire population under one banner just because it fits in nicely with your own personal view of the world.

I am definitely not going to get into an argument over Nazi Germany, but come on, you admit that people joined out of fear, you present the evidence of this in that they turned against it after the war, and your still trying to say those same people would have thought dying for the regime an 'honour'?

I haven't travelled the world by the way, I've just been enough places to realise the deep, deep stupidity of racism, stereotyping, and peoples mental divides between races and cultures.

Well look it is too sticky of a situation, being such that when there are 50million people involved not always do they think themselves, or does the whole action represent the whole or even the minorities...

...but hey maybe my recent despising of the French has resulted mainly from my recent discovery of just HOW pro-nazi they had become, at least in Vichy.

And the country today doesn't exhibit that it has lost many of these traits it picked up in WW2...but granted the people are probably a myriad of the spectrum.

Originally posted by 5POF
Well let's see.

France did the following:

1) Supported Nazism by not fighting it (French Resistance was 95% Jewish immigrants sent to work in the factories, 3% mountain peoples from Itally and French border, and 2% french).

You were there? You have proof?

2) They have more whores than the rest of the world combined.

Seems like you know firsthand. I will not ask for proof on that.

4) They lie, oh how they lie. They try to say the Iraqi Liberation is all about oil, yeah...FRENCH OIL! They're losing 60billion dollars in deals with Saddam.

Again: proof.

5) Can I stress enough that they did nothing to end NAZISM?

Resistance. Prove they didn't.

6) They spat on our soldiers as we poured in through Normandy.

You surely are not that *old* to remember. Proof.

7) They desecrated the Normandy Cemetaries.

Yeah, and made satanic rituals, umm yeah. Boy, you are not making any sense. Send proofs.

8) They've done almost nothing for JUSTICE, even to the point of killing their ONLY saviour, Joan of Arc.

Nothing is a serious word. Are you sure of that? (not about Joan of Arc, I agree she was incinerated. In your country the women accused of sorcery were hanged *or* incinerated. That makes a difference)

9) They are the whole reason Vietnam is Communist. Ho Chi Min came to America and asked for our aid to fight against the French, and he would model his government after ours. Because we were "allies with the French" we refused, which ended up in 50,000 more American deaths. All thanks to the worthless French.

Vietnamese people fought against the Frenchs to gain independence, and then against USA to gain again independence.

10) They killed two popes in the late 1200s and put a puppet pope into power "Pope Clement V". And thus destroyed the Knights Templar.

At that time, the clero was like the mafia. At least they did something against it.

11) They tried to take over Europe with "Napoleon". Killing, hundreds of thousands.

Instead, you succeded in economically conquer Europe. I almost forgot: you succeded in killing hundred of thousands of native Americans, Mexicans, French, English and even yourselves to conquer most of North-America.

12) And their prisons are beyond reproach. Worse than anything in Camp X-ray.

You seem to travel a lot, not to say anything about you being on a French jail.

The French as a nation can kiss my butt. They have a lot of "Civilizing" left to do.

It's forgiving to think you are not representative of USA citizens, cause your disrespect for any other country that is not yours make yourself so uncivilized.

France. Oh hell. Where to begin? Look, reguardless of what's happened in the past, France did not just disagree with the war, the deliberatly tried to stop it whether they were involved or not. May I remind you all that every nation in the United Nations, including the U.S. has the right to have their interests considered. Now, we face multiple and real threats from Hussein in the form of terror attacks on the people of our country. We backed the U.N. and Clinton actually all but turned over control of our military to the U.N. but we backed them on their resolutions against Hussein. He violated all these resolutions blatantly and with force. The U.N. is no longer a relevant power because of it's refusal to handle this rougue country hi-jacked by this monster. France's roll is from the standpoint that there was an oil deal with Hussein which is questionable if the new Iraqi leadership will honor. I doubt they will because with all Saddam's world domination crap out, Iraq will be accepted into the world oil markets, or at least in the U.S. which will make the price higher than the price France was paying in the illegal deal. See, we all just use the U.N. when it's in our favor. It let the U.S. down and fed us to the wolves so to speak so we upheld it's resolution for our protection. France used it to protect its dealings with Hussein but did not think twice about breaking the resolutions about trade with Hussein. I don't have hate for France but I can't be forced to buy their goods and support what they have done. I won't be forced and neither will any other American reguardless or how you all whine and moan. Boycott the U.S. if you want. Thats your right! Maybe if we used our tax dollars to make up for it instead of international welfare and left you to generate an ecomony of your own to see how much work it is without somebody handing it out, we would both benefit from the experience. yeah, lets try it. They can cut my taxes by half and let you all figure out what we've known for years. You don't work, you don't eat.

atrocreep: your 2nd post, your 2nd petition for proofs. I'm starting to consideer you are nothing but a puppet.

5POF - I just wanted to point out that your "history of Afghanistan" missed out a few points. Like the US actively training the Taliban before they took power, provindg them with arms, etc..

Or the bit where the CIA trained up OBL to get involved there and lead a group of mujahadeen against the "commies". The US had a huge part to play in producing the Afghan situation. And 9/11 can be linked back to these dirty policies.

Although I'm sure you'll point out that this was the Cold War. Which excuses anything the US did! Just like 9/11 "excuses" Camp X-Ray!

Try taking off your filtered glasses.

Astrocreep - just read this.

news.bbc.co.uk...

"Paris has outlined rival proposals to achieve disarmament in Iraq after the US and UK suggested that French "intransigence" was bringing war even closer. "

Is it possible that the French just didn't want to allow immediate attacks on Iraq? Is it possible that they thought it was worth letting Blix finish the inspections? Is it possible that the US just wanted to go to war immediately regardless of whether or not Blix was getting anywhere?

I don't know if he will point that out, but I will and have many times in the past.
Unless you are a former ranking member of the Communist party, you need to drop to your knees and thank God that the U.S. did what it took to beat the Soviets and prevent the spread of the Soviet Empire. And furthermore, just because we helped the Mujahadeen against the Soviets is no reason for them to turn on us as if they are French. Sheesh.

And, seeing how the entire world benefited from us winning the Cold War, you'd think the entire world wouldn't mind assisting is wrapping up a couple loose ends of the Cold War. Or, are they? Is the U.S. seen as a loose end of the Cold War? We beat the Soviets and now our presence is no longer needed? Is it the wish of the world that we divide up our resources and the wealth we worked for with the rest of the world and capitulate to the U.N.?

If inspections were going to work they would have worked 12 years ago. The only reason Blix was there was to buy Saddam time. Now, if all these things were just being introduced and tried, I would be with you but for 12 years!! How long do you give it? What does Hussien have to do to you?

As for the puppet remark, you might be needing to reflect some one that question yourself. But I guess your argument is so sound, it won't allow any further evidence for you to consider. So, personal attack the person making an argument instead of dealing with what he has to say. But, my main point is, you aren't gonna bring back Hussein. he's out!! He's Gone!! No more mass muder!! No more chem,bio,nuke planning for him. No more deal with him for cheap oil!! Its all gone!! Its just gone!! So argue all you might but YOU WILL NOT CHANGE THAT!

TC - the fact that the US has a history of acting very poorly to foreign countries does create a legacy. It'll need 20 years of ethical foreign policy to build up a good level of trust.

And the fact is, since 1988 the US have done plenty of bad things. Recently for example : This war for one, pulling out of Kyoto for two, pulling out of the ICC for three, pulling out of the biological weapons treaties for four, etc. etc..

This is not about capitulating to the UN, this is about not undermining a system of international laws that could well be the only way to promote peace in the world. The US simply can't do it alone, it's image is too tarnished.

And yes, the US position as the only superpower is a legacy of the cold war. The US can't afford a $550 bn military budget, but that's what it's got, and that's why the US is spending over $300bn more per year than it has in incomings. That's a silly way to run a country.

Kyoto was nothing more than a program designed to cripple the U.S. economy. No other nation ratified it yet the U.S. was supposed too?

A lot of European countries are aiming to fulfill their obligations under the Kyoto accords. In fact, the treaty may well be ratified by the looks of it. Canada are in, Japan are in, Russia(!) is in. So why not the US?

Everyone elses economy will now take the "crippling blow" of lowering CO2 emissions. Why can't the US take the same hit? Because it's run by selfish company-owned men, who will do nothing to risk the funding for their next policial venture, or at least that's the image which most people (outside of the US) are getting.

Dom, every reason you mentioned are exactly what I'm talking about, we are to capitulate to the rest of the world. Nothing you mentioned would have benefited this nation at all, but certainly would have been detrimental to everything from our economy to our sovereignty.

Funny how former Soviet bloc nations are our biggest backers in this "illegal" war. I imagine that the Iraqi people will be the next group of people that understand our reasons for the things we do.

TC -
The Kyoto accords. How does it harm the US more than every other country signing up to it? (other than the fact that you all want to drive your low mpg SUV's?)

The biological weapons treaties. Is it really so bad to have UN monitoring of all of these weapons programs across the world? Why were all the other countries willing to allow their programs to be monitored by the UN? Why is the US a special case here? How does it help the US to have no monitoring of other peoples biological weapons?

The ICC. What's the problem with this? Do you really think the court will find lots of US soldiers guilty while ignoring all of the Rwandan military etc. who have done awful things? It's a stupid argument to say that you don't want to be part of it in case your soldiers end up in front of it. If your soldiers aren't doing anything bad, they won't end up in front of it...

Really, it comes down to this. One rule for the US, and a different set of rules for everyone else (enforced and set by the US). Well I'm sorry, that's not a world I want to live in.

Hey, its not the U.S. trying to force other countries to ratify this rule. There are just hidden agendas in it. Plus, I agree with clean air and water okay? I'm in geotechnology but I have to tell you that for the most part, all these environmental wackos out there are mostly political activists and not scientists. Real data does not support 10 percent of their accusations yet the media quote them for facts and ask what we are gonna do about them? See, the earth heats and cools for many, many reasons more practically explained that C02 build-up. In fact the level of CO2 fluctuates at a pace that seems independant to our influence. Now, you will never get anyone with grant money on the line to admit it nor political disagreements. But, I am an ourdoors person. I love it, I want it clean and I report any illegal dumping I find going on but some of this stuff really is fiction. The better a country's economy, they better it can clean the air and water. The founder of Greenpeace knew that. Going backward helps nothing.