On France

I'd just like to say why I (slightly) dislike France.(the government/media, not the people)

The French depict us as "nazis". I've seen (newspaper) cartoons from France that show Bush in a nazi uniform, and Blair as a dog in his lap.

I find this an insult, and I am appalled that they can print things like that. I have no problem with the French people, I'd just like them to think before they form an opinion.

Originally posted by kegs
the point I�m trying to make is that you cannot label an entire population under one banner just because it fits in nicely with your own personal view of the world.

No but you can label their government or the regime that controls those people.
That's the whole defence of the use of force in Iraq. The war is not with the population but with the regime. That kinda nullifies your justification.

And if you want to see the justification for the scorn that a lot of us feel for the French government, why don't you take a look at the many hundreds of TV reports that are coming out of Basra. Why don't you tell the people over there that their first taste of freedom and that the lifting of the cloud of terror from over their heads is wrong because the French oppose the war?

There are a trio of comedians...I can't remember the exact joke, but it somehow glorified the French...the audience erupted in boos, and the comedians were taken aback.... Being good at improv as they are, they quickly bounced back... "Wow, I didn't know our audience was so political" one said, followed by another "I didn't know our audience could read...". Anyhow, I thought it interesting to see that level of reaction, at just the mention of the French....

Let's hope things just get patched up when all the caches are dug up, and we can say "we told you so"...

Puts me in mind of a Simpsons episode.
A dude who is trying to take over the world James Bond style turns around to Homer and says "Who should we nuke first? France or Italy?
Homer turns around and says "France".
The Blofeld figure muses "Nobody has ever said Italy"


Still. Look at it this way: a thousand flies on a turd can't be wrong. It's more likely than not to be a turd.

(groan)

Yes, well done leveller for making my point for me. That's what I was saying.
The problems are with the Governments, not the people.
Slag off the Governments all you like, be my guest, I'm not complaining. I may not agree with what you say but I don't have a problem with you saying it.
I do if it's slander against the people.

Dom, Astrocreep handled Kyoto well.

As far as ICC, we have our courts. Our military has its courts martial process. We have no problem upholding our ethics and morals. We have no business being yolked with nations that do not share our ideologies, that is too much the case with the U.N. As is the U.N. the I.C.C. will be composed of other nations, some of which do not like us and will take any opportunity to stick a finger in our eye.
Besides, we have our sovereignty. Europe may want to throw away its individuality and uniqueness for their One World Order but we prefer our own nation.

To say we are rogues or renegades because we refuse to conform to the world's socialistic policy and to call us outlaws because we have better sense than to have our justice system subordinate to the world's system is wrong. To say that there is a set of rules for us and then another set of rules for the rest of you is wrong as well. We didn't ask for your stupid rules mentioned. You all know what is right and what is wrong. Go forth and do right. Gee, seems there is a bit of international hipocrisy over that right now, huh? We just led the way over what is right, yet some of the "moral" nations opposed us because of their financial interest with Hussein.

BTW, no more crap about the fact we built Hussein. WE fought the Russians and Hussein was a tool. France, Germany, Russia, these are just nations who were building his military and regime for their own profit.

Thomas, the thing about Kyoto that pissed off the world was that it was a treaty designed to help the planet as a whole, not national interests. It took a long time to get something as substantial as that on the table, and without the U.S involved it was worthless as it would have little or no effect on the worldwide CO2 emissions without all the major emitters on board. The U.S was seen, as you said, to be protecting it's own national interests over the interests of the future of the planet. Which is one of the things that led to growing annoyance at the perceived arrogance of the U.S, not least in Europe.

It had a lot to do with what levels the CO2 emissions would be in the future, not just at present. Obviously the number of cars is only going to go up, and the levels increase unless an alternative fuel or vehicle makes it into the mainstream markets. With the businesses that would be involved in that having such a grip on government policies and having so much to lose from an alternative, That seems pretty unlikely right now.
I really can�t see how having ever increasing concentrations of CO2 and other noxious chemicals and gases in the atmosphere would not be a very bad thing. Remember the huge brown smog clouds over India a few months back?
Anyway this has got bugger all to do with France�

Dom you are so wrong!

The US never helped out the Taliban.

They helped out the Muhajadin, which was the resistance forces against the Soviet Union.

The Taliban did not come in until after both foriegn parties had completely left.

In fact, the last US CIA agent in Afghanistan, I saw musing just recently about how he had left his light on through out day and night, the entire war.

And finally it had all ended, and everyone was packing up, he turned out his light, stepped outside and a Russian diplomat who had worked across that lit room nearly the entire 10 years, came up to him and said "That's the first time I've seen that light off."

And they went their seperate ways.

The Taliban wouldn't arrive for a few more years, being that that was in what...88, 89?

Originally posted by joehayner
The French depict us as "nazis". I've seen (newspaper) cartoons from France that show Bush in a nazi uniform, and Blair as a dog in his lap.

I find this an insult, and I am appalled that they can print things like that. I have no problem with the French people, I'd just like them to think before they form an opinion.

Well, what you expected?: you depict them as a handful of cowards, ridiculize them in your newspapers. What you expected?

We expect them to accept what they are.

We aren't Nazis.

If anyone is the Nazis its France, the last bastion of Anti-Semitism and Nazism.

They are also, still cowards, who had the French Foriegn Legion fighting MOST of their wars.

Originally posted by 5POF
We expect them to accept what they are.

We aren't Nazis.

If anyone is the Nazis its France, the last bastion of Anti-Semitism and Nazism.

They are also, still cowards, who had the French Foriegn Legion fighting MOST of their wars.

Then accept what you are... a Nazi. The one that don't think like you is wrong, a coward, a traitor... You are a nazi. You still didn't provided any proof of the anti-semitism you are accusing Frenchs to commit.

You have shown yourself like you really are: a racist, a neonazi.

No I'm afraid America is Far from the Nazis. For one we don't build Auswitz's, but then you haven't heard of the "Vichy-Auswitz" yet have you?

www.tau.ac.il...

Towards the bottom you'll see that France has currently been trying to get a Convicted Frenchman who was convicted of Nazi War Crimes, out of Prison.

USA gave new identities to Nazi war crimirals on the condition they would aid USA against the USSR.

I'm not saying Werhner von Braun was a criminal only for designing the V2 (the german ballistical bomb that is the predecessor of Saturn V).

I'm saying some other 'useful' war criminals were 'pardoned' this way.

[Edited on 2003-4-8 by MakodFilu]

No they weren't, and there's no documentation to back that up.

The US, only took Rocket Scientists and various other Scientists.

Anyone labeled a "Nazi War Criminal" was hanged, and there was no such thing as "new identities".

The case of this French man is the UN or whoever judges, convened and found him guilty of having partook in these war crimes some decades ago, and now the French want him back out.

Aren't these the same French saying that WE should listen to what the UN says?

The French aren't Nazis. The people were forced to take part in that regime. Even if some of them actually enjoyed the concept at the time they soon woke up to reality.
France could never live under another countries boot. Sure it's had it's derriere kicked over the last century but it has a social system that remembers when it was a dominant world power. Up there with the greatest superpowers ever. France misses that. It's government and it's people are finding that the world is turning into an English language dominated society and it's identity on the world will be erased.
Using the UN as a tool they tried to prove to the rest of the world that France could defeat the US and thus improve their standing in the world order.

I believe that this war is necessary. I believe that in the long term it will benefit the Western World. Any by-product ie: freedom and democracy for the Arab nations is welcome, but I believe we are fighting for our long term survival. War was the only road we could take. The Middle East has to be supplied with a social/political system that will not threaten the West or deny Israel's existence. Societies that breed hatred against the West and are unable to stop their fundamentalist groups from attacking us are a danger to our civilisation- possibly to the world when coupled with the power of modern technology. When you have a race of people who can supply suicide bombers and fanatical martyrs I believe that you have to take a drastic measure.
Invading Iraq is a tipping point. I believe that Bush's hope is that by invading Iraq he can somehow change the regimes/social systems in the Middle East so that their fanatics are no longer a threat.
Wether that's by a show of military force, rebuilding Iraq and using it as an enticement or by using Iraq as a moral springboard to invade other countries is a question that still has to be answered.
I'm all about my survival. I believe that the "coalition" are fighting for it. I believe that we in the West brought all this trouble on ourselves through past history but now is not the time to deal with our guilt. We have to nullify the immediate threat first.

In my opinion the French have put the their own interests first and gambled with our civilisation. They are working to their own political agenda and taking a risk. They are more concerned about building their own power base and are conveniently blind to the threat that faces them from the Middle East if it impedes their wish to stamp their mark on the world. They intended to defeat American policy, strengthen their position in world standing and then somehow deal with the fundamentalists later. The countries taking part in the war in Iraq don't believe that there is a later. They believe they must act now.
I believe the French act is selfish. It knew that it couldn't lose. By opposing the war it's government would gain more power with Arab nations and a stronger position in the world order elsewhere, if the US were forced not to invade. If the US manages to create a pro Western society (or at least one that doesn't threaten it) France will benefit from that by the safety to it's society.
The French tried to wrestle some power from the US when they should have been helping to deal with the threat from the Middle East.
Until they can throw off their desire for power I don't look upon them in a kindly light.

The French still show "Anti-Semitism" (enough of a Nazi for me).

And if you look at the past, they more than supported then Nazis.

They actively faught against the Allies, and they willingly deported Jews, the Germans never had to tell them "Do so or die."

Granted like any nation this doesn't represent all the people there.

But it is easy enough to conclude that you can only judge a nation on the actions of its government.

And the French Government today, is growing more and more like the Vichy Government of WW2, which so many French were so ready to fight for.

Originally posted by 5POF
No they weren't, and there's no documentation to back that up.

Look what I found? Surprise:

emperors-clothes.com...

...and only using this Google keywords: USA gave new identities nazi criminals

Man this isn't an official doccument.

"Posted by Super Dude:

G-d passed away today at 7:32 am eastern time. His funeral service will be held at 12:00pm Sunday at 4-13-03"

Hmm that's true?

Furthermore, because I found further holes.

The only Nazis they are talking about are "Nazi Spies."

Not the people who ordered the Jews into the Cars, not the people who pulled the gas-chamber lever.

People who were gathering information against the Allies, these are not "War Criminals."

Though the article would like you to think so.

[Edited on 8-4-2003 by 5POF]

You can't judge a people by it's government.

Government and people are two separate entities. A government can make it's people do what it wants to. It doesn't necessarily mean that those people willingly take part.
I don't consider French individuals bad. Their system's political/social ideals suck in my opinion but their people are no different from any of us.