Excellent 'Wings of Russia' documentary series

This superb Russian aviation documentary series can be found on the following youtube channel:

www.youtube.com.../u

They refer to America as "the enemy" in the series , broadcast in 2007/2008. The series also includes some unique new Russian aviation footage.

I use www.keepvid.com to download non-copyright 'youtube' content only.

Yes, it is a wonderful series. I am just waiting for Su-47 fanboys to start talking about cobra maneuvers here. No one seems to realize that a cobra is only useful in a guns only situation.

reply to post by steppenwolf86


Its good for a snap missle shot at close range as well as making somone lose their breakfast really quick
It also looks really, really cool in a Su-37

reply to post by StratosFear


I hate to have to base my analysis on flight sims, but at 25 years old, I have realized I will never fly a fighter jet unless I become a billionaire. But when reading a book about John Boyd and his famous so called Flat-Plane maneuver, where in his f-100 he pitched up and cut the engine, coming to a near stall and rudder rolled over into position behind the attacking plane, I decided to try it out in Falcon 4.0 amongst other sims. It works, but only when you are nose to tail in a tight turn. If you have an Aim-9, you can make quick work of the enemy long before them, even without a radar lock you will get tone on the boresight.

So yeah, it looks cool, but probably not much else. I would piss myself to see new-age ACM tactics which factor in thrust vectoring on both sides. TV makes it a whole new ballgame!

reply to post by steppenwolf86


The F-22 can do the cobra maneuver too, just throwing that out there

reply to post by Laxpla


Yep, it can. The question is, why would it want to?

reply to post by steppenwolf86


Because you are in a close quarters gunfight and it will win it for you.

Happy to help

reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul


I would be amazed if an f-22 ever scores or is shot down in a gun kill in combat with another fighter.

reply to post by lostinau


I highly recommend watching PBS's "Top Gun Over Moscow" (link). A great show that shows the differences between US and Russian air force philosophy. You can probably check it out at your local library. Or at your local "online" library.

Wings of Russia is awesome. I also like the whole "Great Planes" series. Wish they kept the shows alive and added more episodes as new hardware comes out.

reply to post by steppenwolf86


Sounds liek what the US said about guns in hte late 1950's, and the UK about manned a/c about the same time.....

It's like an umbrella - completely useless....unless and until you actually need it.

reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul


Totally agree. You can never assume in combat. Its so chaotic anything is possible. Besides, when you're in gun range, you don't need radar to aim your guns with. And, yes, even with the F-22, you can expect "close quarter" dogfighting. When the US expects 3-to-1 or 6-to-1 odds against the F-22, you can bet there will be dogfighting. Stealth just gives you one of the best weapons in War -- surprise. Just wait until they add optic camouflage to planes.

I never said it did not need a gun, but other than the Israelis, how many US built/licensed planes have had a gun kill in the last 30 years? It has to be 5 or less. My point was just that the Cobra is not a very useful maneuver outside of a guns only engagement.

Originally posted by steppenwolf86
I never said it did not need a gun, but other than the Israelis, how many US built/licensed planes have had a gun kill in the last 30 years? It has to be 5 or less. My point was just that the Cobra is not a very useful maneuver outside of a guns only engagement.

My comment still stands about combat. Just because there hasn't been a confirmed kill with guns in 30 years does not make guns obsolete or useless on the battlefield. What happens when you run out of missiles and the engagement is still going on? Would you abandoned your buddies and go home because no more missiles? I say, "No!" Stay in the fight and do what you can.

I always hate that in paintball. A teammate runs out of ammo and calls himself out of the game. Stupid. I order them to stay in the game and pretend you have ammo. The enemy doesn't know you ran out. Plus, you can still be useful -- extra pair of eyes, another target for the enemy to deal, or make a mad dash for the flag. Also, if you run out of ammo, ask for from someone. Someone would give. Why surrender so easily?

Woah there, I AGREE with you, but my point was that the tactical relevance of the Cobra is limited to a guns only engagement... Therefore it is not quite as revolutionary as some people would like you to believe.

reply to post by steppenwolf86


Which is all I was saying too - glad we figured that out!

2nd

reply to post by steppenwolf86


Ahhhh!!! I agree 3rd.

2nd line

Originally posted by steppenwolf86
I never said it did not need a gun, but other than the Israelis, how many US built/licensed planes have had a gun kill in the last 30 years? It has to be 5 or less.

Iranian F-14's apparently had gun fights vs Iraqi's in the 1980's! see here

Why limit it to US planes tho - are other nations a/c not also relevant? Sea Hariers used guns in the Falklands for example - shooting down at least 2 A-4's & a Pucara on May 21, another A-4 was damaged on another occasions. A pucara also shot down a British helicopter with guns, and several Argentinian helicopters were damaged or destroyed by Sea Harrier guns

This article on fighter guns notes that missiles are still having pretty low hit rates through the 1990's - and given limited numbers carried that is going to be a limitation that begs for a gun backup "just in case" for quite some time yet.

reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul


Curse you, Aloysius! I was about to post some gun kill stats. But you beat me to the punch.

Here's one I found during the 1st Persian Gulf War:

Wiki : Air Engagements of the Gulf War
15 February 1991
USAF A-10A vs. IRAF Mi-8

An A-10A ground attack aircraft shoots down an Iraqi Mi-8 chopper with its gatling gun.

Does that count since it was obvious that this engagement clearly wasn't a dogfight... But you gotta love the A-10.

reply to post by guppy


Bwah ha ha...

How about this one:

USAF F-15E vs. IRAF Hughes 500In an interesting air-air kill, a F-15E fighter/bomber dropped a laser guided bomb onto a chopper in the air. The chopper was on the ground initially loading up commandos, though it took off. Even with it taking off they left the laser on it and the bomb hit it when it was "200 or so" feet in the air. A special forces team on the ground witnessed the event.[2]

also the air battle overhte Bekka Valley in 1982 - overview articleWiki article

I can't find a list of kills for it thos so not sure how many, if any, were cannon.