Abortion-trolls/instigators ignored

This will not be a hate thread, this will not be religious, this will not be biased this will not be used as a way to spread hate, this will not be sexist, this will be a true discussion, understand?
If you can't follow those rules, you shouldn't post, and invite everyone actually PARTICIPATING, to ignore inflammatory posts also. I mean... Aren't we tired of never being able to get an actual intelligent discussion without slinging POO?

I understand many of you are emotionally involved with a situation like this, please, use patience, and remove the bias. I have a bias in this issue too, but this thread does not have to be bias. This is not why abortion is good, or otherwise...

This is about compromise. Even if the compromise is to listen to another's point of view without showering a possibly "ignorant"( look it up if u think ignorant means stupid...) person with disrespect just because they havnt seen the same info as you, or statistics etc etc. If you want to point out someone is wrong, show them why, this can be done without names, and maybe you will just show them information they haunt come across. Again, this goes much smoother when done respectfully, and doesn't end up with pointless egotistical knee-jerk responses.

Don't just state one of the talking points as if that statement alone stands by itself. Add substance, add why this point is so important without belittling the other (if any) posters. This could earn respect from the same people that just looking for a reason to demonize their fellow man just because his opinion differs. This isn't the place, hopefully this is the one and only abortion thread where this ACTUALLY stays civil



Note, a differing opinion is not always an inflammatory remark...
Understood? Good
I would also like to add for those with a creative imagination, these are a random order, just because pro is first, anti is not any less important and vice versa



Now, the reasons FOR abortion. (post any that I missed, and I will gladly edit it in)
-rape, incest, etc
-harm to the mother very possible
-fiscally unable to cope with a child
-emotionally,(or because of age) unable to cope with a child
-pure inconvenience/irresponsibility (this is the minority, understand? This will not be a "they just want to ignore their consequences, controlling women, etc etc thread... Please, I still have faith in a portion of ATS
-no government interference
-your body your choice
-damaged provalactics

There is also the "men don't have a say" but this doent belong in either category. I'd gladly debate someone on this (and still admit there are exceptions) but you make that choice when you, (no, not sex) decide to get to know, or ignore in some cases, the beliefs of your woman. Is that fair? If you want your baby and the woman doesn't, all morals aside, you chose a bad woman. (not saying a woman who will abort is wrong, but picking one that won't listen to you, or take you into account as a father is inherently a bad choice, no? Moving on

Now against ( same as above )
-life begins at conception
-this allows no accountability of irresponsible actions
-if that life bloomed we could have the next Einstein, or hawking
-religious teachings
-if u can't afford, put up for adoption etc
-you have a right to your body, not the fetuses


Those are some of the most common talking points, as I stated, I may have missed some. Contribute respectfully and we can have a civilized conversation. be "cynical," and most likely be ignored if you don't make a valid point. Emotion will pop out, but let's not make it a habit. Become emotionally entwined in a debate and there is a very very good chance you may miss something of value, does anyone agree?

I am very leery of starting a subject like this, just to have it potentially flamed, spat on, and used to bicker uselessly. That is always how it seems to go. Let's see that respect, that dignity, and humility that is supposed to be on these boards. Like I said, I have an opinion, but that doesn't mean it won't change with a well worded and justified response, or that I even have a right to try to preach my beliefs

This is a discussion, if I can't get even a minority to respect that there are millions of perspectives out there, and yours is just as important as another's, I'll delete the op because there is enough hate in this subject as it is, I don't want a part of that.

Now can we please just keep this huge, "don't be a prick" disclaimer in mind please?

Lots of expectations, I know, but I am tired of reading junk threads, or immediately biased threads on one of the most important social issues we have, ok? anti abortion can attempt to cram info down people's throats just as much as pro abortion people can, after all, we are all people, one side or the other

Now,, back to the myriad of perspectives...

reply to post by Venomilk


abortion should be the right of the parents only and no one else
who are you to dictate someone’s life just because you have an opinion

there are many legitimate reasons why someone wouldn’t want to have a baby and we need to leave the choice to the parents!

you have to understand that 'life' is not what it seems anymore, when you have an overpopulated planet like ours someone aborting a child is irrelevant!
millions of people die all the time, life is hard and these children would only be brought into this world to work their whole lives anyway!

stop dictating others lives just to make yourself feel better!

if you look at why people are aborting its because of the society that you are supporting.

I can think of a lot of people I've met during my life who's mothers would have done the world a favor had they had an abortion.
Maybe I'll post a photo of myself to prove my point.

Originally posted by UniverSoul
who are you to dictate someone’s life just because you have an opinion

well with all due respect that's the debate my friend

you cannot dictate whether a living entity in one's stomach has the right to live or not

The one thing I would encourage al participants in this discussion to remember is that BOTH sides have valid points, and BOTH sides care even if they disagree.

Personally I think people should have to apply for a license prior to getting pregnant and having said children. The licence would require you to be compliant with pretty much everything you've got on your first list, thus minimising the need for abortion.

We've gotta get a license for a dog, I would have thought children to be far more important than that.

Cheers

Hmmm....OK...I quite like where your heading with this although I am not entirely sure what the question is your asking? I will just type and see what comes out!

Abortion ultimately is murder but ultimately the decision should be the carriers (women). Like so many points you made earlier there are some very valid reasons as to why a termination may happen. Is it right to abort a child if you've been raped.....now this is a two sided topic right here. You can see the reasons why the abortion would happen as the child would be a constant reminder of the horrific offence that took place although is it really fair on the child not to get the chance to be born because of some moron man? This unborn baby didn't commit this offence... but again that is a VERY touchy subject!

Some reasons may sometimes not agree with me are such things like... too young, can't afford it... why would you deny another couple who are desperately seeking a baby who could raise the child and be loved? I just don't think any child should be denied access into the world although at the same time...I AM A MAN... I'm not a women and it may be completely different if I was up the duff!

Originally posted by kyred
I can think of a lot of people I've met during my life who's mothers would have done the world a favor had they had an abortion.
Maybe I'll post a photo of myself to prove my point.

And I can think of quite a few people ive met in my life that could be so much more if society, (or parents in most cases) didn't treat BORN children as if they WERE aborted. It's a two way street

You can discover planets, and stars, ingenious feats of science at the click of a mouse, opportunity is everywhere these days. I can tell you that I will never abort, and that I will never not abort because even in this time of technology the downsides are just not worth bringing an innocent child into this world

Photos mean nothing, ideas, creativity, discovery... That's where it's at, I bet you have some

Originally posted by ModernAcademia

Originally posted by UniverSoul
who are you to dictate someone’s life just because you have an opinion

well with all due respect that's the debate my friend

you cannot dictate whether a living entity in one's stomach has the right to live or not

this is like saying because i think religion is dangerous and kills people that theists should be banned from practicing religion

although this should happen its not going to.

people should have a basic right to do what they want if its not affecting others

and if the future life of a fetus is going to be negative i see no reason for it to be born


why cant people agree that abortions should be decided on the situation
and only stop people who have no reason

ALSO a very important thing to add.... who's to say the child that doesn't make it to the world isn't the next Einstein or Stephen Hawkins! Some of the worlds greatest wouldn't be here if they wasn't born - obviously -. My own intelligence amazes me. No. Really!

Homosexuality is a good way to avoid pregnancy and abortion. Saves you money on a visit to the clinic. They should advocate that.

The problem is that abortion is ALWAYS going to be a contentious issue.

While some may have truly legitimate reasons for pursuing an abortion, not all people will be in the same circumstances, or be cognizant of the issues.

Similarly, from a legal standpoint, where do you draw the line between abortion, manslaughter and euthanasia? Laws that are too lenient could be misapplied and used to justify manslaughter. Laws that are too restrictive prosecute the unfortunate and innocent.

Perhaps abortions should be approved through some sort of arbitration process where all affected stakeholders (except for the child) can state their case. An approval from the arbitration would then exempt any involved from any legal, moral or societal repercussions.

reply to post by ModernAcademia


And I believe this is where I am Trying to push this topic, no matter what your argument, there will be justification for it. your argument will most likely be correct to quite a few people out there, and will be blasphemy to a few others

It comes down to that,
Nobody has a right to tell you that you must have the baby growing inside you
Nobody has the right to tell you you cannot give up what can be a golden opportunity

That's the downside, nobody wins... People need to see this, or the fight will never end
I, personally think it should be pure choice, based on the knowledge that there is a very real chance the baby is alive from conception. If you can poison something and it "dies" wasn't it alive before it was poisoned? In the end it's your choice, but if you are going to give a man two murder charges for a pregnant woman you should give the truth that the thing inside you is only a lump of tissue if it dies, or if aborted

This is compromise. Yes, abortion will still happen. Yes, some will think better of it. But isn't that the beauty of choice? I'm just an advocate of informed, thought out choices

Another option is that a fetus needs a mother right? Wrong.... We can take two sperms from two men and grow them in a machine that requires no "host" can't the same be done with a young fetus? Wouldn't that be preventing a waste and appeasing both sides?

Still opposed to late term abortion, but once it's heart starts beating, brain starts buzzing, you should have lost your time to choose to get off the fence

This is all opinion, but not many people are even trying to come up with solutions. It's just " you're wrong" "no, you're wrong" "no, your wrong"

So let's fix the problem...

I would like to know the percentage of abortions that are a result of serious danger to the mother and rape. It is my opinion that these are the only two situations that abortion should be considered in. Serious danger being the only one that I think makes abortion necessary. It is also my opinion that its more then just an opinion that all other situations are invalid. I am anti-abortion, pro-choice, and pro-life. I believe that choice is made at the time of conception. Now, I do understand it's not always a conscious choice, but anyone who is old enough to understand sex understands that pregnancy is the result of sex. Furthermore, most people understand that their drive to have sex comes from an innate desire to reproduce.

Now I am male, but I honestly have no desire to control the bodies of women. You can choose to believe that or not. If I wanted to control their bodies I would demand that they all do everything they could to develop a lean and sexy figure and I would also want tattoos and all other body alterations outlawed. Which brings me to the only anti-abortion point that I'm really concerned with. It is not the mothers body that is in question. Rather, unless their is serious danger to the mother, it is the unborn child's body that will live or die as a result of this unjust choice.

Originally posted by chr0naut
The problem is that abortion is ALWAYS going to be a contentious issue.

While some may have truly legitimate reasons for pursuing an abortion, not all people will be in the same circumstances, or be cognizant of the issues.

Similarly, from a legal standpoint, where do you draw the line between abortion, manslaughter and euthanasia? Laws that are too lenient could be misapplied and used to justify manslaughter. Laws that are too restrictive prosecute the unfortunate and innocent.

Perhaps abortions should be approved through some sort of arbitration process where all affected stakeholders (except for the child) can state their case. An approval from the arbitration would then exempt any involved from any legal, moral or societal repercussions.

And this is a good compromise as well. Sounds like a compromise because both sides will still be a bit unhappy. Unfortunately that's the way it will go, one way or another. I do have problems with federalization though, this would be a "birth court" in a way, and like so many things done with good intentions...

Originally posted by Ariess
I would like to know the percentage of abortions that are a result of serious danger to the mother and rape. It is my opinion that these are the only two situations that abortion should be considered

Google is your friend...
Maybe you couuld inform other people here of that statistic
Or how you would implement this system, and how to oversee it

In that situation, anyone that would be denied an abortion just has to claim rape, technically, rather it happened that way or not, correct?

Originally posted by IlluminatusOculus33
Homosexuality is a good way to avoid pregnancy and abortion. Saves you money on a visit to the clinic. They should advocate that.

The funny part is that it will be normal in the coming years for gay couples to have kids that share bot h parents genes, not just one parent and a surrogate for instance. Seems they would be the ones that will have the option to have kids, without the risk of always chancing a kid. Technically, you are half right ;P

OP, why is half of your opening post dedicated to chastising members and warning them to behave in your thread, which, I might add, is a topic we've discussed a gazillion times on ATS already?

reply to post by Kostas


I personally would not get an abortion...but I also have not gone though some the horrific circumstances others have gone through. I do believe that a woman has the right to do with her body as she wishes.

What about a young woman having an unwanted pregnancy ...when she is impregnated by her father, grandfather, uncle or brother? What then? I think in those cases....abortion...would be mercy not only for the mother but for the unborn fetus.

reply to post by NightGypsy


Because no matter what's in the T/C, (most people don't even read) it's still always the whole thread. I'm not chastising as much as just trying to pre-empt

I agree that it seems degrading to those who care about the t/c, but I don't want a blame thread, I want a discussion, possible solutions even. I wish it was as common sense as it seems, but common sense and emotions don't mix very well, and I need people to know that is important to me. If anything, to show if you voice an opinion I'm not just going to be judgmental, like we should all do.
I'm sorry if most abortion threads don't end up how i claim in the op, i just don't want that to happen here