Does God accept bribes, ransoms, indulgences and sacrifice of Jesus?

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by micmerci

 

Only His blameless Son could be a substitute for the redemption of the sins of mankind.

The death of Jesus was a ransom to free mankind from the bondage to the law under the angel of Sinai.
His blood was what was necessary to break those bonds and to create a new covenant.
Jesus did not die to show submission to that old law but do away with it, so he did not die to be a substitute for us and the sins that came about under that law.
So this idea of substitute is so much philosophy and the word is not even in the New Testament.

And any God who says that the only ransom he will accept is the murder of his own son, is quite insane and wants his son murdered for his own self aggrandizement.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by micmerci
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

Thanks. I believe the sacrifices of the OT were for the covering of sins. God himself made the first one by sacrificing the animals for skin as a covering for Adam and Eve after the fall. I believe Jesus was the first perfect sacrifice and was not for the covering of sins but for the redemption of mankind. I believe that is why God no longer requires sacrifices for the covering of sins. Because the price has been paid. We are seen as justified through the sacrifice of Jesus.

Not according to Jesus himself.
He did not say, ride my cross. he said carry your own as I do.
Meanwhile, believers would rather take the moral low ground and try to profit from a murder victim.

God will see all those believers in hell.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by micmerci
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

Thanks. I believe the sacrifices of the OT were for the covering of sins. God himself made the first one by sacrificing the animals for skin as a covering for Adam and Eve after the fall. I believe Jesus was the first perfect sacrifice and was not for the covering of sins but for the redemption of mankind. I believe that is why God no longer requires sacrifices for the covering of sins. Because the price has been paid. We are seen as justified through the sacrifice of Jesus.

Not according to Jesus himself.
He did not say, ride my cross. he said carry your own as I do.
Meanwhile, believers would rather take the moral low ground and try to profit from a murder victim.

God will see all those believers in hell.

Regards
DL

In a way, you are correct. Anyone who tries to find God from works will fail. God is found by the relationship of love for God. This is faith. When a person loves God, they gain union with the spirit. As a byproduct of this union, works are produced as the fruit of this union. Abram becoming Abraham is a good example of this. Hebrews 11 is full of examples of this very idea. Salvation is taking the cup of Christ for the remissions of sin. The cup is the life that is lived as a product of the changed heart. God chooses us by our faith. We do not come to God by works. Our faith is expressed through the works that follow faith.

I would go against what you say above by expressing the facts as they are: God finds faithful believers all over the earth. There are many who think they are faithful believers and are not. This is also true. This is not a judgment call that we can make. We are not the judge, but the witness. Our entire job as believers is to let our light shine before others in such a way that they see our good works and glorify God. Judgment, bias and anger are fruits of pride.

Originally posted by Doublemint
If he does thats great and we can go to heaven and it will be great. If not then we all get punished and it will be painfull. so the question is which one would you rather believe?

In all things, I prefer to believe that which is true.
Learning is a joy and I have the time. So do we all so I don't know why believers take the lazy way to truth by deluding themselves into believing in fantasy, miracles and magic.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by jmdewey60

Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by micmerci
It seems as if you are equating various churches dogma with the very nature of God. Just because a church leader says something is acceptable to God does not make it necessarily so. The selling of indulgences was big in early Roman Catholic church history when there was a political and religious power struggle going on between the 5 major cities of the early church which included Rome.
IMO these and other scriptural passages indicate that God will not accept a ransom from man because of sin. Only His blameless Son could be a substitute for the redemption of the sins of mankind.

You used the word substitute. That is the same as a ransom in this case.
You say God does not take a bribe, and then show him doing just that ??
If God will only accept his son, then he advocates the murder of innocent people to pay for the guilty. Yuk.
No justice in that.

Regards
DL

You see the problem with this kind of explanation.
Any way you look at it, it has to be wrong, either from a normal ethical standpoint, or a biblical standpoint.
There is something that was formulated into a religion but you have this system being set up where you have to go through it to obtain your salvation. In establishing this earthly system that everyone by necessity have to come to in order to obtain forgiveness, it does so by ignoring the true understanding that Jesus died to do away with the old concept of debt and payment.

God cannot die.

I have noted the definitive statements about God as if you knew them to be true.

All you have is what all the rest of us have for proof of God. Right.
All hear say and book say. All hear say.
So should you not be less definitive when speaking of what you cannot know, unless of course you have a new source?

If not then all you are giving is speculative nonsense.
Do admit it or be seen as lying because you cannot know if there is truth in what you say..

Regards
DL

reply to post by Greatest I am

And any God who says that the only ransom he will accept is the murder of his own son, is quite insane and wants his son murdered for his own self aggrandizement.

Regards
DL

I don't know that God had anything to do with the death of Jesus.
There was a god who made a blood covenant with man.
Now I don't know who that god was exactly, or what covenant it was or when or by who made it but there seems to be such a thing, one way or another.
The idea behind a blood covenant is that anyone who breaks it, is to die.
As it stood, it was the people who were dying.
Jesus was some sort of god in a pre-existence.
Jesus chose to become a man and die, thus breaking the covenant, so that man could stop dying and to live.
Jesus had to be of equal or greater status as the god who made the first covenant.

Originally posted by SuperiorEd

Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by micmerci
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

Thanks. I believe the sacrifices of the OT were for the covering of sins. God himself made the first one by sacrificing the animals for skin as a covering for Adam and Eve after the fall. I believe Jesus was the first perfect sacrifice and was not for the covering of sins but for the redemption of mankind. I believe that is why God no longer requires sacrifices for the covering of sins. Because the price has been paid. We are seen as justified through the sacrifice of Jesus.

Not according to Jesus himself.
He did not say, ride my cross. he said carry your own as I do.
Meanwhile, believers would rather take the moral low ground and try to profit from a murder victim.

God will see all those believers in hell.

Regards
DL

In a way, you are correct. Anyone who tries to find God from works will fail. God is found by the relationship of love for God. This is faith. When a person loves God, they gain union with the spirit. As a byproduct of this union, works are produced as the fruit of this union. Abram becoming Abraham is a good example of this. Hebrews 11 is full of examples of this very idea. Salvation is taking the cup of Christ for the remissions of sin. The cup is the life that is lived as a product of the changed heart. God chooses us by our faith. We do not come to God by works. Our faith is expressed through the works that follow faith.

I would go against what you say above by expressing the facts as they are: God finds faithful believers all over the earth. There are many who think they are faithful believers and are not. This is also true. This is not a judgment call that we can make. We are not the judge, but the witness. Our entire job as believers is to let our light shine before others in such a way that they see our good works and glorify God. Judgment, bias and anger are fruits of pride.

You are so full of it.
Where is even one who believes?
If there was even one, we would all know it if your fantasy God was real.
How about you? Do you have fait? Then show it.

This is how a true Christian show his faith.
You might note that there is no one here with faith.
If there was, we would all know it.

Matthew 17:20
And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

Mark 16:17-18.
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

There is a small mountain of 16,000 people that will starve today and tomorrow and so on if you do not step up and show your faith.
Unfortunately, there are no true believers. Just hypocrites.

You might note that there is no one here with faith.
If there was, we would all know it.

Keep reading literally and you will never know God.
Just so you know where your bible was born.

Dailymotion - 2007-Doc Zone - Pagan Christ 1 of 3 - une vidéo Actu et Politique

Regards
DL

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

And any God who says that the only ransom he will accept is the murder of his own son, is quite insane and wants his son murdered for his own self aggrandizement.

Regards
DL

I don't know that God had anything to do with the death of Jesus.
There was a god who made a blood covenant with man.
Now I don't know who that god was exactly, or what covenant it was or when or by who made it but there seems to be such a thing, one way or another.
The idea behind a blood covenant is that anyone who breaks it, is to die.
As it stood, it was the people who were dying.
Jesus was some sort of god in a pre-existence.
Jesus chose to become a man and die, thus breaking the covenant, so that man could stop dying and to live.
Jesus had to be of equal or greater status as the god who made the first covenant.

Ya. Sure.
Do you really believe your own foolish ramblings about a God you do not know and have only heard of?

Regards
DL

reply to post by Greatest I am

God cannot die.

I have noted the definitive statements about God as if you knew them to be true.

All you have is what all the rest of us have for proof of God. Right.
All hear say and book say. All hear say.
So should you not be less definitive when speaking of what you cannot know, unless of course you have a new source?

If not then all you are giving is speculative nonsense.
Do admit it or be seen as lying because you cannot know if there is truth in what you say..

Regards
DL

I hope you are healthy and well. I have been a bit worried about you but nice to see you back to your old form.
I think God dying is a universally accepted concept within Christianity.
That being said, I don't see it in exactly the same way as the "orthodox" view.
There is only one God as in the Creator of the Universe.
There seems to be a multitude of various entities in the pantheon of heaven, of varying levels in hierarchy.
The individual who became Jesus was one of these and apparently one with an intimate relationship with the one God.
What I am saying is not some sort of new prophecy, exactly, but a understanding of the Bible that seems like a new prophecy to me. But not really new to me but incrementally progressing over a long period of time as I continue my study into the subject. I think calling it "speculative nonsense" trivializes the study of theology in general if no one is ever able to reach a sort of truth in their own mind.

reply to post by Greatest I am

This is how a true Christian show his faith.
You might note that there is no one here with faith.
If there was, we would all know it.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for.

Matthew 17:20
And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

It only takes a small amount of faith to move a mountain. You just need to believe it is possible. The Egyptians had faith that the monument of the LORD in Isaiah 19:19 could be built in the shape of a Pyramid. Faith is the evidence of what you hope for and the assurance of what you can accomplish in the future. The future is unseen. The past is ahead from the perspective of the Hebrews. This is because we see the past so that we can change the future by choice. The future is behind us as we do not see it. Faith is the assumption that you can overcome the world by how you make choices. Positive added to positive makes more positive. Negatives can be cancelled by positive. Negative and Negative only make more negative. Jesus died on a cross and multiplied this by your sin. Two negatives multiplied make positive.

Mark 16:17-18.
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Christians have changed the world throughout history and continue to do so. Jesus spoke in parables.

There is a small mountain of 16,000 people that will starve today and tomorrow and so on if you do not step up and show your faith.
Unfortunately, there are no true believers. Just hypocrites.

My offerings go to the Baptist international fund each year. My brother is a missionary feeding the very people you reference. Baptists do this and so do all other Christian organizations. I know the money gets to him because he is my brother. His work is funded. Where are you right now and how much have you given to this fund? Are you a missionary calling me a hypocrite?

reply to post by Greatest I am

You are so full of it.
Where is even one who believes?
If there was even one, we would all know it if your fantasy God was real.
How about you? Do you have fait? Then show it.

This is how a true Christian show his faith.
You might note that there is no one here with faith.
If there was, we would all know it.

I agree with you.
There are all these people who turn faith into a work by which to gain merit to be saved.
Rather disgusting.

reply to post by Greatest I am

Ya. Sure.
Do you really believe your own foolish ramblings about a God you do not know and have only heard of?

Regards
DL

I have experienced the works of God in that the universe exists and in my personal experience with the angels of God.
I believe it because I think it is true to the best I can understand the truth at this moment.
Everyone has opinions but generally keep them to themselves, I put myself out on a limb somewhat but have a certain confidence in dong so by simultaneously weighing the implications of what I say, towards possibly leading people into damnation.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

God cannot die.

I have noted the definitive statements about God as if you knew them to be true.

All you have is what all the rest of us have for proof of God. Right.
All hear say and book say. All hear say.
So should you not be less definitive when speaking of what you cannot know, unless of course you have a new source?

If not then all you are giving is speculative nonsense.
Do admit it or be seen as lying because you cannot know if there is truth in what you say..

Regards
DL

I hope you are healthy and well. I have been a bit worried about you but nice to see you back to your old form.
I think God dying is a universally accepted concept within Christianity.
That being said, I don't see it in exactly the same way as the "orthodox" view.
There is only one God as in the Creator of the Universe.
There seems to be a multitude of various entities in the pantheon of heaven, of varying levels in hierarchy.
The individual who became Jesus was one of these and apparently one with an intimate relationship with the one God.
What I am saying is not some sort of new prophecy, exactly, but a understanding of the Bible that seems like a new prophecy to me. But not really new to me but incrementally progressing over a long period of time as I continue my study into the subject. I think calling it "speculative nonsense" trivializes the study of theology in general if no one is ever able to reach a sort of truth in their own mind.

Yes but a conclusion on your part as to a certain reality, God the creator, based purely on speculation and hear say, that forces you to believe in fantasy, miracles and magic, is silly.
A flying spaghetti monster has just as much credibility as your God does.
In fact, his morals would be better than your God's.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by SuperiorEd
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

This is how a true Christian show his faith.
You might note that there is no one here with faith.
If there was, we would all know it.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for.

Matthew 17:20
And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

It only takes a small amount of faith to move a mountain. You just need to believe it is possible. The Egyptians had faith that the monument of the LORD in Isaiah 19:19 could be built in the shape of a Pyramid. Faith is the evidence of what you hope for and the assurance of what you can accomplish in the future. The future is unseen. The past is ahead from the perspective of the Hebrews. This is because we see the past so that we can change the future by choice. The future is behind us as we do not see it. Faith is the assumption that you can overcome the world by how you make choices. Positive added to positive makes more positive. Negatives can be cancelled by positive. Negative and Negative only make more negative. Jesus died on a cross and multiplied this by your sin. Two negatives multiplied make positive.

Mark 16:17-18.
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Christians have changed the world throughout history and continue to do so. Jesus spoke in parables.

There is a small mountain of 16,000 people that will starve today and tomorrow and so on if you do not step up and show your faith.
Unfortunately, there are no true believers. Just hypocrites.

My offerings go to the Baptist international fund each year. My brother is a missionary feeding the very people you reference. Baptists do this and so do all other Christian organizations. I know the money gets to him because he is my brother. His work is funded. Where are you right now and how much have you given to this fund? Are you a missionary calling me a hypocrite?

edit on 11-9-2011 by SuperiorEd because: (no reason given)

How easily you can ignore or fluff of the words of your own Jesus scapegoat.
Nice to know how little the bible means to you.

Compare Christian good works to their evil side.
Are they ahead or behind?

African witches and Jesus
www.youtube.com...

Jesus Camp 1of 9
www.youtube.com...

Promoting death to Gays.
www.youtube.com...

For evil to grow my friends, all good people need do is nothing.
Fight them when you can. Oops. You are one of the evil ones who promotes belief in fantasy, miracles and magic and homophobia..

Regards
DL

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

Ya. Sure.
Do you really believe your own foolish ramblings about a God you do not know and have only heard of?

Regards
DL

I have experienced the works of God in that the universe exists and in my personal experience with the angels of God.
I believe it because I think it is true to the best I can understand the truth at this moment.
Everyone has opinions but generally keep them to themselves, I put myself out on a limb somewhat but have a certain confidence in dong so by simultaneously weighing the implications of what I say, towards possibly leading people into damnation.

edit on 11-9-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

Yep. Those good old angels do get around.
Sigh.

Regards
DL

reply to post by Greatest I am

Yep. Those good old angels do get around.
Sigh.

Regards
DL

My guess is that most people, if they were to think about it enough, could recall at least one instance where they had met an angel who did not come out and announce they were angels but could not have been a person. An example would be someone just all of a sudden showing up somewhere, in a situation where either it would be impossible for someone to get there in the first place, or there was no way they could have gotten there unobserved, and then to later disappear in the same manner. An angel can do that while appearing to be an otherwise ordinary person.
I am not trying to imply that I was having tea and conversation with a party of angels giving me instruction on the mysteries of the universe. But I know angels exist and I know and have been told that they are with me always.

reply to post by Greatest I am

Promoting death to Gays.
www.youtube.com...

For evil to grow my friends, all good people need do is nothing.
Fight them when you can. Oops. You are one of the evil ones who promotes belief in fantasy, miracles and magic and homophobia..

The Law in Leviticus was for the Hebrew People. It was their guardian through the early years of their nation. The law also stood as an example to show that man cannot please God by works. Faith must produce good works by loving God first. This is the essence of Christianity. The Gospel of Christ was the truth that we must love God first in order to produce faith and good works. This is salvation.

Here is the evidence for above.

Galatians 3

23 Before the coming of this faith,[j] we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.
26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

We are now under the covenant of love. One law covers all actions. If we love God and others (even enemies), there is no law necessary beyond the one law of God.

Now that you know the truth, allow me to point out your references. I'll use the one about promoting death to Gays. This is judgment on others. Jesus clearly said that we will be judged in the same measure that we judge others. In other words, those who judge the lifestyle of the homosexual will be judged in like measure on judgment day. We are not the judge of these matters. God is. We are merely the witness.

Does this mean that Christians should lay down and not defend truth. No. We have a subject that judges the object. No judgment from our mouth is necessary. The words of God in the Bible judge our actions by the laws of nature. See this post from earlier today as an example. LINK What you will find in my post is a universal law of returns. God does not judge in a temporal manner. Judgment is what happens when we take form the universe. This is set into the laws of nature. God merely tells us how to work with the law. Jesus said to give to others and reward follows. If we take, a debt is created.

Your pride against God will blind you from these truths. I am here trying to help you see. This is honoring, protecting and defending truth. Pride brings out bias and prejudice. Pride can only steal, kill and destroy.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

Yep. Those good old angels do get around.
Sigh.

Regards
DL

My guess is that most people, if they were to think about it enough, could recall at least one instance where they had met an angel who did not come out and announce they were angels but could not have been a person. An example would be someone just all of a sudden showing up somewhere, in a situation where either it would be impossible for someone to get there in the first place, or there was no way they could have gotten there unobserved, and then to later disappear in the same manner. An angel can do that while appearing to be an otherwise ordinary person.
I am not trying to imply that I was having tea and conversation with a party of angels giving me instruction on the mysteries of the universe. But I know angels exist and I know and have been told that they are with me always.

How special for you. Fantasy is fun eh?

Regards
DL

Originally posted by SuperiorEd
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

Promoting death to Gays.
www.youtube.com...

For evil to grow my friends, all good people need do is nothing.
Fight them when you can. Oops. You are one of the evil ones who promotes belief in fantasy, miracles and magic and homophobia..

The Law in Leviticus was for the Hebrew People. It was their guardian through the early years of their nation. The law also stood as an example to show that man cannot please God by works. Faith must produce good works by loving God first. This is the essence of Christianity. The Gospel of Christ was the truth that we must love God first in order to produce faith and good works. This is salvation.

Here is the evidence for above.

Galatians 3

23 Before the coming of this faith,[j] we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.
26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

We are now under the covenant of love. One law covers all actions. If we love God and others (even enemies), there is no law necessary beyond the one law of God.

Now that you know the truth, allow me to point out your references. I'll use the one about promoting death to Gays. This is judgment on others. Jesus clearly said that we will be judged in the same measure that we judge others. In other words, those who judge the lifestyle of the homosexual will be judged in like measure on judgment day. We are not the judge of these matters. God is. We are merely the witness.

Does this mean that Christians should lay down and not defend truth. No. We have a subject that judges the object. No judgment from our mouth is necessary. The words of God in the Bible judge our actions by the laws of nature. See this post from earlier today as an example. LINK What you will find in my post is a universal law of returns. God does not judge in a temporal manner. Judgment is what happens when we take form the universe. This is set into the laws of nature. God merely tells us how to work with the law. Jesus said to give to others and reward follows. If we take, a debt is created.

Your pride against God will blind you from these truths. I am here trying to help you see. This is honoring, protecting and defending truth. Pride brings out bias and prejudice. Pride can only steal, kill and destroy.

edit on 12-9-2011 by SuperiorEd because: (no reason given)

Strange that your truth goes directly against both what Jesus said and what James, his brother, said.
You are right and they are wrong of course.

Faith without works is dead.
Shall I bother getting you the quotes?

Regards
DL

reply to post by Greatest I am

How special for you. Fantasy is fun eh?

No, these were real life situations that were not fun.
I had an angel take me by the hand and lift me up to save me, one time. I would have been shortly dead if he had not all of a sudden showed up at that moment.