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Does God accept bribes, ransoms, indulgences and sacrifice of Jesus?

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posted on Sep, 3 2011 @ 09:40 PM
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Does God accept bribes, ransoms, indulgences and sacrifice of Jesus?

Eze 18 20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Psa 49 7
None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

Man has worked hard to try to put in place a system of justice where the guilty pay for their crimes/sin and the innocent go free. This actually seems to follow the scriptures above and if you are doing unto others what you would like done to you, then you will applaud our present legal forms.

God on the other hand, and those theists that want to ride their scapegoat Jesus as a sacrifice for their sins and not step up to their responsibilities, seem to prefer to have the innocent punished and let the guilty walk.

Scripture says that God cannot be bribed and will not accept a ransom of an innocent party to redeem another. Yet that is exactly what God is said to have done when he intentionally had his son murdered. Some call it a sacrifice. God wanting or needing a blood sacrifice also goes completely against scriptures but he and his followers don‘t seem to know that.

The other bribes or ransoms that God seems to accept are indulgences given by the church and were ironically what created the reformation movement and sects that now somehow embrace that immoral notion. Martin Luther must be spinning in his grave. I will grant that that practice is not as widespread as it once was, but to me, the idea that a man can sin against another man, and by just placing a few $$$ in a church strong box without even having to seek forgiveness from his victim, and expect with church guarantee a shorter stay in purgatory, is just too immoral for me.

All these bribes, ransoms and indulgences are for the forgiveness of sins.
His murder or sacrifice of his son is for the same reason and also has the innocent being punished while the guilty go free.

As the great law maker and executor of justice, do you think it moral for God to accept and demand such instead of making the guilty pay and letting the innocent live?

Secular law generally follows the bible’s idea of justice, in many cases, as shown in the verses above. Should secular law reverse itself and follow God’s ideas of justice instead in accepting bribes, ransoms and sacrifices of innocent men?

Regards
DL




posted on Sep, 3 2011 @ 09:48 PM
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It seems as if you are equating various churches dogma with the very nature of God. Just because a church leader says something is acceptable to God does not make it necessarily so. The selling of indulgences was big in early Roman Catholic church history when there was a political and religious power struggle going on between the 5 major cities of the early church which included Rome.
IMO these and other scriptural passages indicate that God will not accept a ransom from man because of sin. Only His blameless Son could be a substitute for the redemption of the sins of mankind.



posted on Sep, 3 2011 @ 10:09 PM
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It's all about Love. But there's no love where justice doesn't exist.

Paul juxtaposed against James used to seem rather contradictory to me, but now I see how perfectly harmonious they are.

And love covers a multitude of sins. I better love.



posted on Sep, 3 2011 @ 10:23 PM
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You clearly cannot understand any answer you would be given.



posted on Sep, 3 2011 @ 10:36 PM
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Quickest route to figureing out what to do with various dogma:



36 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?" 37 And He said to him, " `YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.' 38 "This is the great and foremost commandment. 39 "The second is like it, `YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' 40 "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."
studylight.org...:39&t=nas&st=1&new=1&sr=1&sc=1&l=en

Most Biblical laws are for the obvious benefit of society--or are about loving your neighbor as yourself. Indulgences do nothing about fixing the problem, but more excusing the bad behavior, ensuring that there is no religion staying true to it's core beliefs.



posted on Sep, 3 2011 @ 11:09 PM
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This may be a trivial point, but I've never heard of anyone (with the possible exception of the opening poster) who believed you can bribe God, let alone any church that taught it.

What are you planning on bribing God with? A Klondike bar? Be serious. He doesn't need anything that we can put in a collection plate.



posted on Sep, 3 2011 @ 11:09 PM
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reply to post by Greatest I am
 


The nature of God is revealed best in the story of Abram being asked to sacrifice Issac.

When Abram was told to sacrifice Issac, He did so willingly to follow God in obedience and faith. At the last moment, God stopped him and provided a lamb in place of Issac. Abram was willing to give up what he loved most in the world. For us, this is the idol of our own selfish pride. God changed Abram's name to Abraham by adding the Hebrew letter 'Hey' to his name. In the Ancient Hebrew pictographs, the letter hey represent a man with his arms outstretched to God in faith and praise. When we are willing to look to God as our strength as a father, we allow Him to shepherd us instead of using our pride as the guide in life. The other pictograph for HEY is the shepherd's staff. This represents the leading of God in the wilderness of life. We reside in the tent (body / Temporary house). LINK

The point here is that we must love God and love others. Like Abraham, this is the ultimate act of humility before God. We do this by offering God our pride in exchange for His holiness. By doing this, the lamb is exchanged for what we offer to God. In the end, we keep what we offer. God never needed our works. Faith, hope and love is the point. He has done everything for us, including the act of sending His Son as the lamb for sacrifice. In other words, we receive salvation through our faith. Faith is looking to God with trust and not pride and bias.

As for the indulgences of the church, this brought the Bible to the masses through the proliferation of the printing press. Luther recognized the error of the apostate church and stood for truth. The reformation allowed 70 million people to leave Europe for freedom in America. This brought the industrial revolution and the very worlds being typed at this very moment. Apart from God's hand in history, none of this would be possible. The printing of the Bible in English and the new freedom in American brought literacy to the masses. In the end, God took the error and made a blessing to mankind.

Romans 8:28

28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.





edit on 3-9-2011 by SuperiorEd because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 3 2011 @ 11:16 PM
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reply to post by micmerci
 

Only His blameless Son could be a substitute for the redemption of the sins of mankind.

The death of Jesus was a ransom to free mankind from the bondage to the law under the angel of Sinai.
His blood was what was necessary to break those bonds and to create a new covenant.
Jesus did not die to show submission to that old law but do away with it, so he did not die to be a substitute for us and the sins that came about under that law.
So this idea of substitute is so much philosophy and the word is not even in the New Testament.



posted on Sep, 3 2011 @ 11:24 PM
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reply to post by SuperiorEd
 

The point here is that we must love God and love others. Like Abraham, this is the ultimate act of humility before God.
God does not ask you to worship Him and God does not command you to love Him.
God does not want us to commit an ultimate act of humility.
There was a god back a long long time ago in mythical ages, who did demand all those things but we are in another age now that is more enlightened and we understand that the rule to live by is the golden rule to love one another.
Jesus taught us to love each other and that is the one law we are left with as Christians.
We have God in us and we see God in others so we show true worship by treating people how they deserve, being representatives of God.
This is explained in the NT by telling of judgement and how Jesus says you did not cloth me when you saw I was naked.



posted on Sep, 3 2011 @ 11:41 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


I respectfully disagree. We could debate for eternity and accomplish nothing. We each have our beliefs. These verses support my belief. I do not want to force my beliefs on anyone. Please do likewise.

Hebrews 10:12
But this man, after he had offered one SACRIFICE for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

Ephesians 5:2
And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a SACRIFICE to God for a sweetsmelling savour.



posted on Sep, 3 2011 @ 11:46 PM
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Good call and those are great verse. How do you view the connection of the God of the OT and Jesus reference here to God?

Hebrews 10:
11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
15 But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before,
16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,” 17 then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.” 18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.


Originally posted by micmerci
reply to post by jmdewey60
 


I respectfully disagree. We could debate for eternity and accomplish nothing. We each have our beliefs. These verses support my belief. I do not want to force my beliefs on anyone. Please do likewise.

Hebrews 10:12
But this man, after he had offered one SACRIFICE for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

Ephesians 5:2
And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a SACRIFICE to God for a sweetsmelling savour.



posted on Sep, 3 2011 @ 11:52 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


I think it is valuable to realize that God considers Himself one of the others to love. From my reading of scripture, God is continually trying to get man to see others as equally in need of His guidance and strength. As you say, love is the supreme aim. I just need to state the importance of loving the God who is the origin of it all. There can be no separation of creation from His bestowal of love to us. He does not require love nor can He if it is going to be considered love. Love must be express as trust and appreciation to be genuine.

If we say we love God for the reward, then we are duplicitous. If we say we love God to avoid judgment, then we are equally seeking something different than what we say we are seeking. This is duplicity. We love God because seeking the supreme good is its own reward. God expects us to take on His character. In the Hebrew tradition, a name is a person's character. If we take the Lords name in vain, we take His character by name but not by deed and thought. This is duplicity again. Pride causes duplicity.



posted on Sep, 3 2011 @ 11:56 PM
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reply to post by SuperiorEd
 

Thanks. I believe the sacrifices of the OT were for the covering of sins. God himself made the first one by sacrificing the animals for skin as a covering for Adam and Eve after the fall. I believe Jesus was the first perfect sacrifice and was not for the covering of sins but for the redemption of mankind. I believe that is why God no longer requires sacrifices for the covering of sins. Because the price has been paid. We are seen as justified through the sacrifice of Jesus.



posted on Sep, 3 2011 @ 11:58 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by SuperiorEd
 

The point here is that we must love God and love others. Like Abraham, this is the ultimate act of humility before God.
God does not ask you to worship Him and God does not command you to love Him.
God does not want us to commit an ultimate act of humility.
There was a god back a long long time ago in mythical ages, who did demand all those things but we are in another age now that is more enlightened and we understand that the rule to live by is the golden rule to love one another.
Jesus taught us to love each other and that is the one law we are left with as Christians.
We have God in us and we see God in others so we show true worship by treating people how they deserve, being representatives of God.
This is explained in the NT by telling of judgement and how Jesus says you did not cloth me when you saw I was naked.
To quote the new testament (paraphrase): present yourselves as living sacrifices to God. Sacrifice is definately called for in the NT, just not near as bloodthirsty. It's about daily dedication.



posted on Sep, 3 2011 @ 11:58 PM
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reply to post by micmerci
 

These verses support my belief. I do not want to force my beliefs on anyone. Please do likewise.
Maybe some unstated personal belief, but it does not support what you wrote.
If you stop writing unsupported philosophy of salvation, then I will stop contradicting you.



posted on Sep, 4 2011 @ 12:05 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


I haven't seen support for your philosophy included in your contradictions and yet I do not attempt to "correct" you. My support for my beliefs comes from scripture. It is not a philosophy. It is written in black and white. A big complaint of non- Christians is how we constantly push our faith "down peoples throats". I try not to do that. Please try to do likewise. If you do not agree with my beliefs, fine. State your beliefs without trying to "correct" mine.



posted on Sep, 4 2011 @ 12:06 AM
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reply to post by SuperiorEd
 

I think it is valuable to realize that God considers Himself one of the others to love.
I already explained how that works.
You have this God you created in your mind and if you want to show humility to that idol, then that's your business but don't expect me to worship it.
My Lord is Jesus, who is your Lord?



posted on Sep, 4 2011 @ 12:13 AM
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reply to post by micmerci
 
No because you teach a lie and one to cause people to suffer damnation by following it.
Jesus demands people to be good and he does not jump in and bleed for you every time you sin.
Jesus also does not present his own life in your stead, in judgement.
If you are not willing to defend your faith, then you should renounce it right now.
Or at least crawl off into a corner somewhere and stay off forums.
All you want to do is preach unopposed.
Do that at home.



posted on Sep, 4 2011 @ 12:22 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


wow! start many holy wars, have we??



posted on Sep, 4 2011 @ 12:24 AM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by SuperiorEd
 

I think it is valuable to realize that God considers Himself one of the others to love.
I already explained how that works.
You have this God you created in your mind and if you want to show humility to that idol, then that's your business but don't expect me to worship it.
My Lord is Jesus, who is your Lord?



If you read each of these verses (LINK), you should see a pattern emerge as to whom we believe. There is no distinction between God and God as the Living Word among men. Matthew 28:18
Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Then, cross reference this to these verses (LINK).

The read the words of Jesus:

Matthew 22

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[c] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[d] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”



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