A special thank you to those who have talked and/or warned us.

reply to post by CigSmokinMan


I agree that this is suspicious. Why because he was a whistle blower who did "suddenly" no mater what will be listed as cause of death. But he died a hero because he talked.

reply to post by Magantice


and the fact that the chief of scotland yard resigned over taking bribes...

reply to post by googolplex


Wow - I knew I was too tired to be making sense of much last night - sorry I went off when you were being so obviously sarcastic - to everyone but me

To the victor, the spoils, so I am flaming myself.

Me

All i'm saying is that evidence or better still proof to back up a claim, is all that is asked for an account to be *credible*...folks will believe what they will, evidence or not, that's their prerogative and is for themselves to decide.

I do not subscribe to the 'proof or it didn't happen' school of thought, 'it' whatever it may be, may well have happened and as described, but to be credible evidence or at least some method or means for the reader to research the claim themselves must be there.

Ask yourselves this:

Would you like a legal system, in whatever land you currently reside in, where a police constable arrests you while you're simply walking down the street, and says you're being arrested and will be tried for murder because the constable claims he saw you do it, or someone that knows his brother says he saw you do it.

You get to court, the judge finds you guilty without any evidence or proof whatsoever having been presented, and you pay the penalty for the murder you didn't commit?

Just be glad that evidence and proof are things that are designed to aid us, not hinder us.

I wouldn't be so quick to congratulate the constable responsible for your wrongful murder arrest and prosecution using just hearsay without providing a shred of evidence or proof in support of his claim...would you?

Thanks for raising this whole issue of when to/when not to post.

Personally eye witness account is valid, especially if it can be backed up by other ATS members. Following the previous analogy, it is like an ATSer saying that they have seen a murder and describing parts of this, and then other ATSers come on board and add to the story - in court multiple witnesses would be accepted as evidence.

It should also allow a fair cross examination of the story as well and explore the consequences of the story. This way the sum of the forum can be infinitely stronger than any individual part.

My concerns are actually more about the validity of some of the web sites quoted - it is the man in uniform authority syndrome - if it is on a flashy (authoritive) web site then it must be true

reply to post by templar knight


I don't want to make it seem as if i don't support sharing. i encourage anyone and everyone with a story to tell it to us on ATS.

I believe that some people have gone a little too deep "down the rabbit hole". We can all freely admit that there are a great number of people in the, for lack of a better term, "conspiracy world" that are just plain nuts. There are no two ways about it. IT's these people and their outlandish claims that muddy the waters for those who are seeking truth.

Too often people speak about "theories" and "conjecture" as fact.
ex "We all know politician x and the government have been using x chemical on people and the nwo is using these people to infiltrate schools and the media" (silly example, but bear with me). When things like that are presented as a "given" or "fact" it damages the research, the researchers, and the credibility of those who are actually speaking out and exposing "conspiracies".
In my estimation you have at most 5% of posted items worth checking out. The other 95% are regurgitation, conjecture, lunacy, or trolling. The important information that we are trying to share. The very reason for ATS to exist, is drownd out by nonsense.
There very well may be Reptilians or the illuminati (or whatever other thing/group you can think of) but trying to get to the truth is near impossible. Not because of the "all powerful" government or "All powerful" corporations, but through poor communication on our parts. We ALLOW the "water" to be muddied.

Now, some will claim it's all "disinformation agents" and so forth who are responsible. There may be "D.I." out there, but I think we ascribe all too much importance on most of what we say. IF we are talking about it then the information is out there already, Unless there happens to be a credible, first person account given for the first time HERE on ATS (which I doubt happens very often at all.) We need not worry about "D.I."s.
So many posters and users are quick to call anyone who contradictts their claims as a "D.I.". Hell, I've been called such just because I don't believe every story that I'm told and express my point of view.
If anyone is to blame for our "issues" on ATS it's ourselves. We, collectively, don't do a very good job vetting our sources or those posting. Obviously we can't check out every single claim made but we CAN approach all reports with the eye of a Skeptic. How often do you read a post that is way "out in left field" yet it gets 100 stars and everyone is agreeing with the post. That's confirmtion bias. They are looking for and noticing only what supports the belief they already have while ignoring anything that contradicts it. It's rampant on ATS (and many other such sites).
Too many of the stories here are the result of and use anecdotal evidence, testimonial evidence ("someone told me..."), "appeals to authorities" (citing authoritative figures like commercials saying Dr. john Doe says...), hasty generalizations (using incomplete data or partial knowledge to make a claim of "fact"), the "clustering" illusion (apllying meaning to random arguments to "ignorance" (like saying we CAN'T know for sure because it's being withheld from us), Pragmatic fallacy (Thinking something works based on anecdotal evidence , communal reinforcement (when people in a community-like ATS- believe someting because others say its true. The most dangerous example, in my opinion.), "pareidolia" (seeing something in a random background; Jesus' facce in your toast.), Shoe horning (trying to force "evidence" to fit a theory/fact) , post hoc fallacy (assuming one thing happened because of another; a black cat crosses your path and the next day you fall and break your leg.), FAITH (belief regardless of evidence), guilt by association, Spotlight fallcy (judging something based on the "popular" aspect of it. Like California is full of surfers when surfers make up a small percentage of the whole.) and, of course, wishful thinking.
I highlight these terms to make a point. DO NOT BE QUICK TO BELIEVE A STORY. We are all guilty of this behavior. It's in our character to do so. In order for this site and "conspiracy theorists" as a whole to "work" we need to approach ALL of this information that is shared with an eye towards reason.
In other words
ATS USERS SHOULD BE SKEPTICS.

Skepticism is our number one tool in discovering truth.

reply to post by Magantice


In this day of instant information exchange I find that everyone has an opinion regardless of age or experience. Anybody with a camera and computer can upload any thing they desire. With a bit of time, I find I can prove or disprove anything you care to claim.

My advantage to this dilemma of Funk and Debunk is to compare all this background noise to my own experience with the paranormal and UFO's, propaganda, religion, whatever. I have a sounding board in my head based on my experience and study that helps me to discern the truth from here say. If your experience matches certain elements of my own, then I lend more credence about what else you have to say... (mostly).

I don't need exacting source or reference material to convince you or anybody that what I say is relevant. If you know the truth in your head then you can see it for yourself without "proof". Socrates spoke of a slate that he wrote things on and a guiding light that revealed the truth of an issue to his mind. Thats what I'm talkin about...

Of course, being human means that I am imperfect and usually make mistakes. So, please forgive me when I do and kindly set me straight. I am usually open minded and want to know more...

Originally posted by Gloster
This is why we dont abduct donkeys!!

Now this is why I think we should have negative starting pure bull

and to make it more interesting take one of me

Its nice to open up a little about things and I was that way long ago but lets not get carried away here. Find a middle ground ya know that kindof stuff. Quality information keeps the ISPs in business.

Thanks for the thread OP, and i do feel similar in sentiment, however, in a place like this, the truth is so often buried under different ideas and conflicting evidence. Everyone these days has their own idea of the TRUTH, and whether or not your truth agrees with another determines whether people will flame or thank. But so rarely people actually do unbiased research of thier own. Take for example the Global warming debate. One side beleive the evidence PROVES gw is manmade and going to destroy our earth. And everyone who believes diferently are brainwashed sheep, suckered into an ideology by powermad millionaires. And in a case of beautiful irony, others believe gw believers are brainwashed sheep to powermad millionaires, and the evidence PROVES this. I, myself got really curious after reading a Crichton book relating to gw, and started to go through the data myself, but I did what every scientist, believer and skeptic does as well, I looked at what could be interpreted as credible data, and what was not (by my own distinction) for me, I ingored data centered around rapidly developing urban areas, (because of a question of ambient heat) and ignored weather ballon data (largely because optimum placement could grossly skew the data, for or against depending on desired result). but the bottom line is even I, who finds myself generally without predisposition to any particular idealogy, took the data and interpreted it as i saw it. (for me, the GW truth after a few years of research was an amount of rise is certain, a tiny one, its cause however, less so) my point here is people's predisposition to one theory or another always determines thier outlook, and how they treat others. In many cases, especially here, that predisposition amounts to zealotry. I think members here have an irrational view on this site, as though its somehow different or better than the mainstream. And it is, in that there can be so many different conflicting zealots, which sometimes puts the median response as nearly rational, but just like in the various aspects of mainstream media and thought, people here too view the world through the reality they have chosen to envision in thier minds. At least here, there remains hope. With so many different ideas, and evidence, and conflicting interpretations of data, people can find the tools to come to a well thought out decision of thier own. And for that I am grateful. However its worthy remembering that a great deal of whats posted, even here is ...blarney, drivel, bull, bunkem, hooey, nonsense, balderdash

reply to post by MuchTooSerious

you could be quite right. OP touches on the psyche of every person slammed by a troll ...its a smell, of, STAR SEARCH.....If I knew something by which I could be killed if I said something about it I would relocate and start a new life and try not to look over my shoulder every minute..Spill my guts on ATS? Are you MAD, High or just Dillusional ...All of us here must have even a touch of Narcissism..I can prove it to you,,,does this look familiar,,.1) You log on to MY ATS 2) Click on messages 3) Replies 4) Profile to check Star Count............YYYYYEAH Baby how did I know...later

With all due respect some things are too far fetched to be believed and it takes some REAL growing up to achieve true enlightment. I never ask for proof and believe those that demand it are either too lazy or too misinformed thus a total waste of my time.

I enjoy ATS just as it is or I would not be here. You have to expect resistance to true knowledge because special interest groups stand to lose influence and/or money most of the time and it is in their best interest to either deny or at least downplay stuff. Take it in stride and don't sweat it!

As for the PTB being a menace to your life I think people tend to over-exaggerate this aspect a little too much. Generally speaking unless you have undeniable proof of something with first hand knowledge and are about to share it with everyone the PTB don't bother. Its much easier and profitable discrediting the opposition rather than killing or imprissoning them because they create martyrs that live forever.

While this site does have it's share of nonsense there are some very interesting and informative topics here, as well as some very interesting and informative posters. And I try to keep an open mind when new ideas pop up. But when you research a source to find they sell healing crystals on the internet it makes it easier to tell who's for real. But the reverse is also true, and I've been exposed to some really bright people I would have likely never heard of if not for this site.

As a new member I'm mostly reading old threads right now as topics pop up that interest me, and there is a wealth of good information here, you just have to filter out the nonsense.

Sometimes the line between nonsense and reality gets blurred, but that's ok if you have a healthy dose of skepticism. And science, good science anyway, is skepticism. You challenge your findings in science, and encourage others to explore and verify or disprove your theories. That's really what we are doing here.

As anyone who's ever been on a farm can tell you, you have to shovel some crap to get the cream.

Originally posted by Magantice
Posting your knowledge or experience on ATS is not very rewarding when you have disinformation agents and people with low Iq's posting snarky remarks. Then there are those who want proof. Example: pictures or it didnt happen. Aside from all of this, there are those of us who want to hear what you have to say. We can do research on our own. We dont need proof. We just need enough for you to tell us in your own words, what happened to you or what you believe you know. This is the one place where the truth can be told . Most people who really do know something, end up dead shortly after they share the information. Hopefully those of you who dont want to die keeping secrets from those who need to know, will take the chance to share here. For those of you who have already shared what you know, I for one thank you. I believe very little of what I read on ATS but having said that I can also say I've learned a lot. The truth IS IN HERE. Anyone who agrees with me please let our informants know.

...be careful what you say.

Even if you believe in aliens, alternative life forms, disclosure, conspiracies, alien bases on the dark side of the moon, etc. saying you "believe very little of what" you "read on ATS " will bring on the wrath of certain members who will make claims against you like "you're ruining this site".

Apparently they sometimes believe in the truly unbelievable but don't believe in free speech.

btw, I believe in most everything but sometimes need to point out the ridiculous resulting in me being told that I'm ruining this site. If one person can bring down this site with mere words, then those making those claims are exactly what I think they are and that is naive and simple minded......

reply to post by eNaR


Im not afraid of what someone will say to me. If someone were to say that to me, well its their opinion right? I have reasons for what I say in reguard to not believing everything I read onATS. I however find enough important information on ATS that I felt Like saying thank you to certain posters who do share useful information.
Obviously someone has hurt you with their remarks and Im sorry that happened to you. No matter what I say, someone will like it and someone wont. Someone will pick it apart as you just did.

Originally posted by Magantice
Then there are those who want proof.

Not sure if that is meant to be a joke or not. How in the world is asking for proof that someone has created a cold fusion reaction in their oven at home using tinfoil and gold a bad thing? Do you suggest i simply believe anything and everything that people claim to be true here? In case you havent noticed, there are some trolls here. If you dont believe me, check out how many posts there are in the "hoax" section.

You say this until the US claims to kill Osama, then yell at the top of your lungs you want proof.

reply to post by nightbringr


The bottom line as I see it, is that its ok to ask for evidence, but proof is in the eyes of the beholder!

Most of the time you don't need to ask for evidence because the evidence is provided on the original post by the thread starter. For some people NO AMOUNT OF EVIDENCE is enough to constitute proof and thus a heated debate of name calling gets underway damaging the credibility of the site.

If your a hardcore "skeptic" chances are you should find a better hobby and leave the alternative sites for those with a truely open mind. Besides I never take anything at face value without doing follow up research of my own to verify the claims. Many threads are BS but many others are not. Its up to the readers to decide preferrably without being rude in the process.

reply to post by nightbringr


Take a deep breath and try not to be deluded by what you think I said. If anyone has evidence they will offer it. Otherwise, either research it or disreguard it. Your choice. Snarky remarks benefit no one.

Originally posted by Magantice
reply to post by nightbringr

 

Take a deep breath and try not to be deluded by what you think I said. If anyone has evidence they will offer it. Otherwise, either research it or disreguard it. Your choice. Snarky remarks benefit no one.

It might have been slightly snarky, but i think it was valid. Its all fair of you to tell me to have an open mind, but I believe its just as important, if not moreso to be a little skeptical of everything you see or hear. Do you believe everything the government tells you? Your tax services? Your city counsilmen?

When the USA announced OBL was killed, ATS was flooded with messages of "open minded people" for the US governement to provide proof. Any proof.

Isnt this understandable? Now obviously not everyone can provide proof of their stories. But some can. A recent debate i was in with a character who claimed to have created "cold fusion" in his oven at home using among other things tinfoil, gold and lead. He claimed that once formed and heated to a certain degree, fusion began and continued unabated. If you know anything about cold fusion, it is considered the "holy grail" of energy production.

So, i simply asked to see a video of the reaction. Not difficult to provide, and in itself would not constitute proof. But if he could have showed it to me, i might have been slightly less skeptical and more inclined to look into his claim. He constantly dodged questions, became angry when people asked for some kind of verification and eventually stopped contributing to his post.

Were the curious and skeptical on that post wrong to ask for proof? Doubtful. The post is now in the "hoax" section.

I understand you are saying people will provide proof if readily available, but is there somthing wrong with asking for it if it is not provided at first? If a subject interests me, it tends to get my mind working and i want to know more. Im a natural born skeptic, and i love this site. I have never found convincing evidence of aliens, reptilians, UFOs, NWOs and any of that such. But at the same time i have learned wonderous new things about our ancient history, civilizations i have never heard of and wonders i would have never imagined possible.

Trolls, derailleurs, and disinformation agents are rampant. There is no end to their desire to stop, control or take a thread on a tangent. Picture, proof, or it didn't happen. I agree totally. In fact there have been many threads in which I could have added professional expertise, and or very good observations and comments, but simply stayed away because of this very reason. Indeed I have jumped over several threads just today because I noticed there were more trolls than genuine posters. Think of all of the useful information we could be gleaning. If we had a question we could ask, but you are right. If you are already here that means you have a computer and know perhaps just a little enough to do some research. Then come back and tell everyone. The original maker of the thread does not have to be the final authority of anything. Generally they are looking for advice and input,
All of the things you mentioned will derail a thread quicker than anything. You get the flag/star so we can keep this going. perhaps they will get the hint. Well, maybe not but we must try
DH