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Everlasting Land Covenant With Abraham, Was There, and Is There Now?

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posted on Aug, 26 2011 @ 05:11 AM
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Abraham was in a place.
This place was where Abraham lived.
The land sustained him.
God said you will have this life,
this sustenance,
this land,
forever.
This land could support only so much, to where he had to split off from Lot because it had reached its limit of how many it could support. Then Abraham was to have countless descendants, then what? Eventually it would require the whole world.
So the real promise was life.
Hebrews 9:15a And so he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the eternal inheritance he has promised,

The true fulfilment is life eternal and the whole world made new, after the resurrection of the saints who through adoption become inheritors.
So that promise was made better.




posted on Aug, 26 2011 @ 05:14 AM
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I was on another thread when someone who is obsessed with this idea completely derailed the thread by doggedly continuing on with this topic so I started this to where the discussion would actually have something to do with the thread.
Above is what I had already posted as my answer to the question but is not satisfactory to the other person involved in this discussion.
I think it would be useful to collect the verses he used earlier in his support for this concept of an everlasting land covenent.

Genesis 12:2 Then I will make you into a great nation, and I will bless you, and I will make your name great, so that you will exemplify divine blessing.
Genesis 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
Genesis 12:7 The Lord appeared to Abram and said, “To your descendants I will give this land.” So Abram built an altar there to the Lord, who had appeared to him.
Genesis 13:15 I will give all the land that you see to you and your descendants 1 forever.
Genesis 15:18-20 That day the Lord made a covenant with Abram: “To your descendants I give this land, from the river of Egypt 3 to the great river, the Euphrates River – the land of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites, Hittites, Perizzites, Rephaites,
Genesis 17:7, 8 I will confirm my covenant as a perpetual covenant between me and you. It will extend to your descendants after you throughout their generations. I will be your God and the God of your descendants after you. I will give the whole land of Canaan – the land where you are now residing – to you and your descendants after you as a permanent possession. I will be their God.”
Psalm 94:14 "The Lord will not reject his people; he will never forsake his inheritance"
Isa 27:6 "In the days to come, Jacob will take root, Israel will bud and blossom and fill the world with fruit."
Jer 16:14-16 "However, the days are coming," declares the LORD, "when men will no longer say, ‘As surely as the LORD lives, who brought the Israelites up out of Egypt,’ but they will say, ‘As surely as the LORD lives, who brought the Israelites up out of the land of the north and out of all the countries where he had banished them.’ For I will restore them to the land I gave their forefathers."
Jeremiah 31:35-36 "This is what the Lord says, he who appoints the sun to shine by day, who decrees the moon and stars to shine by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar - the Lord Almighty is his name: 'Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,' declares the Lord, 'will the descendants of Israel ever cease to be a nation before me'"
Hosea 5:15 "I will return again to my place, until they acknowledge their guilt and seek my face, and in their distress earnestly seek me."
Joel 1:1-2 "In those days and at that time, when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem, I will gather all nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. There I will enter into judgment against them concerning my inheritance, my people Israel, for they scattered my people among the nations and divided up my land.
Joel 3:2 "I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land."
Zech 7:14 "I scattered them with a whirlwind among all the nations, where they were strangers. The land was left so desolate behind them that no one could come or go. This is how they made the pleasant land desolate."
Zech 12:2-3 "Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about... And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces."
Zech 14:2 "I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped."
Zech 14:3-4 "Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights in the day of battle. On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south."
Zech 12:9-10 "On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem. And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son."
Revelation 7:5 From the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben, twelve thousand, from the tribe of Gad, twelve thousand,
Rev 16:14-16 "They are spirits of demons performing miraculous signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty... Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon."
edit on 26-8-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 26 2011 @ 06:29 AM
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The earlier mentioned proponent of the Land of God party had this as a response to the post I made, which I used for the original post for this thread.

So you have no scriptures that support God nullifying His everlasting land covenant with Abraham's seed? I've posted scripture detailing that this was an everlasting covenant. You claim it's not, so where is the Biblical support that God abandoned His promise.

Try again, I don't want your opinions, show me where the Bible says this.
So, above are all the verses he interspersed throughout that other thread, that I thought would be useful in transferring the argument to here.

Now, to reply to the earlier response to what is now the OP, I would say that there is no such thing, as I hinted at in the title of this thread. The NT says "to the seed". That Jesus is the seed who is the inheritor of the promise by which the whole world is blessed.

edit on 26-8-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 26 2011 @ 07:33 AM
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You've only posted Hebrews 9:15. That verse doesn't show God annulling His "everlasting" covenant with Abraham.



And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

8And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God. ~ Genesis 17:7-8




"Everlasting" is עוֹלָם in the Hebrew, or "`owlam". (Strong's # 5956)



1) long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world
a) ancient time, long time (of past)
b) (of future)
1) for ever, always
2) continuous existence, perpetual
3) everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity



posted on Aug, 26 2011 @ 10:11 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 
This is the way I understood it (as in the OP) and I did not grow up in a church infected with the Darby/Scolfield heresy.
The first I heard of any of this (the Land of God philosophy) was when the book, Late Great Planet Earth came out. I read it and decided it was b* cover to cover including all of its salvation theology.
I should investigate this a bit and if anyone has any ideas on the subject, please contribute.

Scofield Reference Bible first published in 1909
The Late, Great Planet Earth published in 1970

John Nelson Darby (18 November 1800 – 29 April 1882) was an Anglo-Irish evangelist, and an influential figure among the original Plymouth Brethren. He is considered to be the father of modern Dispensationalism. He produced a translation of the Bible based on the Hebrew and Greek texts called The Holy Scriptures: A New Translation from the Original Languages by J. N. Darby.

Darby
edit on 26-8-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 26 2011 @ 10:38 AM
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Those with faith are Abraham's spiritual seed, but there was a land covenant made with his physical seed.

Here's another quote from the same poster I was quoting earlier, from the other thread. This was his response to my charge of racism.
My response would be, still sounds like racism to me.
You can say such and such have some sort of relationship with this genetically select group but you still have a genetically select group as the foundation for your philosophy.



posted on Aug, 26 2011 @ 10:54 AM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 
This is the way I understood it (as in the OP) and I did not grow up in a church infected with the Darby/Scolfield heresy.
The first I heard of any of this (the Land of God philosophy) was when the book, Late Great Planet Earth came out. I read it and decided it was b* cover to cover including all of its salvation theology.
I should investigate this a bit and if anyone has any ideas on the subject, please contribute.

Scofield Reference Bible first published in 1909
The Late, Great Planet Earth published in 1970

John Nelson Darby (18 November 1800 – 29 April 1882) was an Anglo-Irish evangelist, and an influential figure among the original Plymouth Brethren. He is considered to be the father of modern Dispensationalism. He produced a translation of the Bible based on the Hebrew and Greek texts called The Holy Scriptures: A New Translation from the Original Languages by J. N. Darby.

Darby



I don't see a single scripture in your post. Heretics are easily shown to be ones by the Word of God. Where is your Biblical support?



posted on Aug, 26 2011 @ 10:56 AM
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Well i was always of the opinion that the everlasting covenant with the jews was eternal life, because the next time God destroys the earth it is supposed to be with fire. So the orignal Jerusalem is going to be destroyed and the New Jerusalem will have to take its place because the old must pass away before the new can arrive, but i always thought that the new jerusalem was supposed to be in heaven because God is supposed to make us a new earth where we can live in our new bodies.
edit on 26-8-2011 by lonewolf19792000 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 26 2011 @ 10:56 AM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60

Those with faith are Abraham's spiritual seed, but there was a land covenant made with his physical seed.

Here's another quote from the same poster I was quoting earlier, from the other thread. This was his response to my charge of racism.
My response would be, still sounds like racism to me.
You can say such and such have some sort of relationship with this genetically select group but you still have a genetically select group as the foundation for your philosophy.


[

And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

8And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God. ~ Genesis 17:7-8


So God is a "racist"? Where are your scripture texts to show this covenant was annulled by God?



posted on Aug, 26 2011 @ 10:58 AM
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Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
Well i was always of the opinion that the everlasting covenant with the jews was eternal life, because the next time God destroys the earth it is supposed to be with fire. So the orignal Jerusalem is going to be destroyed and the New Jerusalem will have to take its place because the old must pass away before the new can arrive, but i always thought that the new jerusalem was supposed to be in heaven because God is supposed to make us a new earth where we can live in our new bodies.


We're talking about the Abrahamic land covenant in this thread. Genesis 17:7-8. The OP feels Israel has no right to the land it occupies. Which in essence challenges the integrity of God Himself.



edit on 26-8-2011 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 26 2011 @ 11:07 AM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical
You've only posted Hebrews 9:15. That verse doesn't show God annulling His "everlasting" covenant with Abraham.
OK, very good post to get this discussion started. Everlasting covenent is I think fundamental to a study on this topic. We can check that word you gave a description of and with the miracle of the Internet, we can do specialized word searches from the convenience of our personal computers.
1 Chronicles 16:17 He gave it to Jacob as a decree, to Israel as a lasting promise, He confirmed it to Jacob as a decree, to Israel as an everlasting covenant:
Psalms 105:10 He gave it to Jacob as a decree, to Israel as a lasting promise,
Ezekiel 16:60 Yet I will remember the covenant I made with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish a lasting covenant with you.
Ezekiel 37:26 I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be a perpetual covenant with them. I will establish them, increase their numbers, and place my sanctuary among them forever.
Genesis 17:13 They must indeed be circumcised, whether born in your house or bought with money. The sign of my covenant will be visible in your flesh as a permanent reminder.
Isaiah 24:5 The earth is defiled by its inhabitants, for they have violated laws, disregarded the regulation, and broken the permanent treaty.
Isaiah 61:8 For I, the Lord, love justice and hate robbery and sin. I will repay them because of my faithfulness; I will make a permanent covenant with them.
Jeremiah 32:40 I will make a lasting covenant with them that I will never stop doing good to them. I will fill their hearts and minds with respect for me so that they will never again turn 4 away from me.
Genesis 9:16 When the rainbow is in the clouds, I will notice it and remember 1 the perpetual covenant between God and all living creatures of all kinds that are on the earth.”
Genesis 17:7 I will confirm my covenant as a perpetual covenant between me and you. It will extend to your descendants after you throughout their generations. I will be your God and the God of your descendants after you.
Genesis 17:19 God said, “No, Sarah your wife is going to bear you a son, and you will name him Isaac. I will confirm my covenant with him as a perpetual covenant for his descendants after him.
2 Samuel 23:5 My dynasty is approved by God, for he has made a perpetual covenant with me, arranged in all its particulars and secured. He always delivers me, and brings all I desire to fruition.
Isaiah 55:3 Pay attention and come to me! Listen, so you can live! Then I will make an unconditional covenantal promise to you, just like the reliable covenantal promises I made to David.
Jeremiah 50:5 They will ask the way to Zion; they will turn their faces toward it. They will come and bind themselves to the Lord in a lasting covenant that will never be forgotten.
Leviticus 24:8 Each Sabbath day Aaron must arrange it before the Lord continually; this portion is from the Israelites as a perpetual covenant.
Numbers 18:19 All the raised offerings of the holy things that the Israelites offer to the Lord, I have given to you, and to your sons and daughters with you, as a perpetual ordinance. It is a covenant of salt 1 forever before the Lord for you and for your descendants with you.”
Hebrews 13:20 Now may the God of peace who by the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead the great shepherd of the sheep, our Lord Jesus Christ,
Hebrews 13:21 equip you with every good thing to do his will, working in us 1 what is pleasing before him through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever. 2 Amen.

These are the results from a word search on NETBible for "everlasting covenant".
edit on 26-8-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 26 2011 @ 11:11 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


Well for 2000 years the jews were scattered across the world, and in the mid 1900's they all returned to Israel. Israel became a nation long ago, and it has always remained the same, evne when her people were thrown to the four corners of the earth. They made it back home, so apparently it is still theirs, but it has ignited a huge religious war between jews and palestinians (muslims). These 2 nations have been fighting over that land since Isaac and Ishmael. Who did God intend to be the legitimate heir of Abraham? The firstborn ishmael by his mistress or the legitimate firstborn by his wife Rachel? Or could it be that Ishmaels mother was really one of Abrahams wives? Peoples in those times and regions loved to have more than one wife, they still do. These are questions that have been asked for the better part of 6,000 years.

Perhaps the land belongs to the heirs of Isaac AND Ishmael since they were both heirs of Abraham? Theres no biblical evidence, or historical for that matter because men in those times thought very differently than we do now. In those days it was more likely that the legitimate heir was the firstborn of whomever the wife or wives were. But that is the question, was the bible corrupted in favor of Isaac over Ishmael? No way to answer that question unless some ancient and older text than the Torah is discovered. We'll be looking for Abraham's diary or biography.
edit on 26-8-2011 by lonewolf19792000 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 26 2011 @ 11:13 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


Care to use that miracle working power of the internet to find the scriptures detailing God abandoning His everlasting land covenant with Abraham and his seed? I've only been asking for over 24 hours now. I think that's ample time for a few Google searches.



posted on Aug, 26 2011 @ 11:20 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

I don't see a single scripture in your post. Heretics are easily shown to be ones by the Word of God. Where is your Biblical support?
I have a verse in the OP which is fundamental to Christianity which explains the very existence of Christianity.
It seems any Bible verse which does not support your party's position is like water on a duck's back.
According to you, for 1800 years, Christianity was entirely populated by heretics since dispensationalism was only a modern invention.



posted on Aug, 26 2011 @ 11:27 AM
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Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
Well i was always of the opinion that the everlasting covenant with the jews was eternal life, because the next time God destroys the earth it is supposed to be with fire. So the orignal Jerusalem is going to be destroyed and the New Jerusalem will have to take its place because the old must pass away before the new can arrive, but i always thought that the new jerusalem was supposed to be in heaven because God is supposed to make us a new earth where we can live in our new bodies.
It sounds exactly like the way I was taught in the church I went to but it was not a generic "Evangelical" church which were coopted by the proponents of dispensationalism. We already had a eschatology which was developed before the publishing of the Darby Bible.
edit on 26-8-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 26 2011 @ 11:30 AM
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Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


Well for 2000 years the jews were scattered across the world, and in the mid 1900's they all returned to Israel.


That was several fulfilled prophecies as well. That God would regather all the children on Israel from the countries He had scattered them. The prophecy said on the "shoulders of Philistia" and "on wings". This led Sir. Issac Newton to predict that man would someday fly long before the Wright Brothers invented the aircraft. There is also a prophetic OT utterance that detailed that the nation would be born in a single day. All fulfilled.


Israel became a nation long ago, and it has always remained the same, evne when her people were thrown to the four corners of the earth. They made it back home, so apparently it is still theirs, but it has ignited a huge religious war between jews and palestinians (muslims). These 2 nations have been fighting over that land since Isaac and Ishmael.


I know that to be the truth. The world in general, and satan specifically has been attacking the land covenant since God made it.


Who did God intend to be the legitimate heir of Abraham? The firstborn ishmael by his mistress or the legitimate firstborn by his wife Rachel?


Why are you asking that? Scripture says that God calls Issac Abraham's "ONLY son". And also Gd says Ishmael will not inherit the promise.

Or could it be that Ishmaels mother was really one of Abrahams wives? Peoples in those times and regions loved to have more than one wife, they still do. These are questions that have been asked for the better part of 6,000 years.


Perhaps the land belongs to the heirs of Isaac AND Ishmael since they were both heirs of Abraham?


That's not how inheritance works Biblically. God didn't consider Ishmael the son of Abraham because he was not a son of faith, but a son of the flesh.


Theres no biblical evidence, or historical for that matter because men in those times thought very differently than we do now. In those days it was more likely that the legitimate heir was the firstborn of whomever the wife or wives were.


Yes there is Biblical evidence:

God says Issac is Abraham's "only" son:


He said, “Take your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you.” Genesis 22:2


Ishmael will not share in the inheritance with Issac:


"and she (Sarah) said to Abraham, "Get rid of that slave woman and her son, for that slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with my son Isaac." Genesis 21:10


Well, Sarah said Ishmael will never share in the inheritance with Issac. Wait, God told Abraham to listen to Sarah's counsel:


"But God said to him, "Do not be so distressed about the boy and your maidservant. Listen to whatever Sarah tells you, because it is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned. Genesis 21:12


And Paul echoes the same in Galatians:


"But what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman shall not inherit with the son of the free woman.” Galatians 4:30



But that is the question, was the bible corrupted in favor of Isaac over Ishmael? No way to answer that question unless some ancient and older text than the Torah is discovered. We'll be looking for Abraham's diary or biography.


That's one of the only way for opponents to "wiggle" out of it. I've even heard opponents claim that God in the OT is actually a "demon". lol


edit on 26-8-2011 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 26 2011 @ 11:32 AM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

I don't see a single scripture in your post. Heretics are easily shown to be ones by the Word of God. Where is your Biblical support?
I have a verse in the OP which is fundamental to Christianity which explains the very existence of Christianity.
It seems any Bible verse which does not support your party's position is like water on a duck's back.
According to you, for 1800 years, Christianity was entirely populated by heretics since dispensationalism was only a modern invention.



The verse in the OP has nothing to do with the land covenant. God said the land covenant was everlasting. The Hebrew for that word is "eternal, forever". Where are your scriptures that show the land covenant was annulled by God?

*waiting*



posted on Aug, 26 2011 @ 11:35 AM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
Well i was always of the opinion that the everlasting covenant with the jews was eternal life, because the next time God destroys the earth it is supposed to be with fire. So the orignal Jerusalem is going to be destroyed and the New Jerusalem will have to take its place because the old must pass away before the new can arrive, but i always thought that the new jerusalem was supposed to be in heaven because God is supposed to make us a new earth where we can live in our new bodies.
It sounds exactly like the way I was taught in the church I went to but it was not a generic "Evangelical" church which were coopted by the proponents of dispensationalism. We already had a eschatology which was developed before the publishing of the Darby Bible.


Which is idiotic because Paul hammers away for 3 chapters in Romans (9,10, & 11) that God is NOT finished with the Jews or Israel and that they have a prophetic future with Him.



posted on Aug, 26 2011 @ 11:39 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

We're talking about the Abrahamic land covenant in this thread. Genesis 17:7-8. The OP feels Israel has no right to the land it occupies. Which in essence challenges the integrity of God Himself.
See, now you are talking about something completely different.
The modern pirate regime in Palestine calling itself Israel is not the same thing as ancient Israel.
That Israel was punished for its idolatry and ceased to exist after the Assyrian invasion.
There was the remnant of Israel that continued untill the conquest of Judea by the Babylonians.
There was the return back to the land that was prophesied of, after the Persian conquest of Babylon.
That kingdom was ended after the death of the final inheritor of David's throne, being none other than Jesus the Christ.
What we have as the modern "state" of Israel is just some terrorists who hijacked the land from its rightful owners and who kill anyone who opposes them. There is no indication that God played any part in its foundation or that God in fact lives in the heart of the people who founded it (atheists) or the people who currently run it.


edit on 26-8-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 26 2011 @ 12:01 PM
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reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 

Well for 2000 years the jews were scattered across the world, and in the mid 1900's they all returned to Israel. Israel became a nation long ago, and it has always remained the same, evne when her people were thrown to the four corners of the earth. They made it back home, so apparently it is still theirs, but it has ignited a huge religious war between jews and palestinians (muslims).
There are the "lost ten tribes of Israel" who were scattered and are not distinguishable from anyone else in the countries they reside in. Those have not returned since they would not even identify themselves as being Israelites.
Most of the returnees to Palestine were the German Jews called the Ashkenazi. A lot of people support the theory that they originated from the Caucasus region and were in fact converts to Judaism, so not even descended from Abraham.
The Local Palestinian Jews lived in peace for centuries with the Muslims, but it was the German immigrants who went to war with the citizens of Palestine.
A huge amount of Jews still live in their own native countries and have no intention or desire to leave to go to Palestine.



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