An in-depth (re)view of the Cash/ Landrum case

I really got to thank CardDown for your constant researches and contribution to this thread!! It's always nice to see a new piece of information from you

reply to post by Dalbeck

Thank you, Dalbeck, for the kind words, but I owe you thanks as well for all the work you put into your original post and your continued efforts.

Sadly, the thread is not receiving much input, perhaps due to its length- I know I'm have some difficulty navigating that many pages. It might be a good move to open a new thread to highlight the new findings and insight. We are nowhere near finished!

Originally posted by CardDown
reply to post by Dalbeck

 

Thank you, Dalbeck, for the kind words, but I owe you thanks as well for all the work you put into your original post and your continued efforts.

Sadly, the thread is not receiving much input, perhaps due to its length- I know I'm have some difficulty navigating that many pages. It might be a good move to open a new thread to highlight the new findings and insight. We are nowhere near finished!

No need to open another thread. The lack of input on this thread is probably due to the fact that there simply isn't any "new information" to add. It is a classic case, even though I personally don't believe that the US Army was involved. Or if they were, it was something different than "testing of experimental US vehicle".

The reason I doubt the military involvement is that here we are, 30 plus years later and still no one who was involved in the alleged "massive flyover of Chinooks" has come forward with any sort of explanation.

But it does remain an "unsolved mystery".

reply to post by bluestreak53

bluestreak53, you make some good points, but like all of us- "you don't know what you don't know." There is new information on this case, and much of it challenges the official story.

In the absence of answers, speculation and rumor rush in to fill the void. That happens in every mystery, and this one is no exception. Do you remember the 2002 Washington, DC "Beltway Sniper" case? Early on, the police and media focused on the pursuit of a white van. Had the killers had never been caught, that non-existent white van would have lived forever as the star in an "unsolved mystery". There are a few white vans in the Cash-Landrum story.

The story that we know is just that, a story. By re-examining the case we can remove some of the fictional barnacles and red herrings. Some of this has been posted here, there are many pieces up at Blue Blurry Lines: The Cash-Landrum UFO Story, and others are working to uncover documents and testimony (known and unknown) relating to this classic case.

I'll say it again: there is new information on this case, and much of it challenges the official story.

Originally posted by CardDown
reply to post by bluestreak53

 

bluestreak53, you make some good points, but like all of us- "you don't know what you don't know." There is new information on this case, and much of it challenges the official story.

In the absence of answers, speculation and rumor rush in to fill the void. That happens in every mystery, and this one is no exception. Do you remember the 2002 Washington, DC "Beltway Sniper" case? Early on, the police and media focused on the pursuit of a white van. Had the killers had never been caught, that non-existent white van would have lived forever as the star in an "unsolved mystery". There are a few white vans in the Cash-Landrum story.

The story that we know is just that, a story. By re-examining the case we can remove some of the fictional barnacles and red herrings. Some of this has been posted here, there are many pieces up at Blue Blurry Lines: The Cash-Landrum UFO Story, and others are working to uncover documents and testimony (known and unknown) relating to this classic case.

I'll say it again: there is new information on this case, and much of it challenges the official story.

I'm not sure what "official story" you are referring to, but this has nothing to do with the Washington DC Sniper.
So what is the "white van" in this incident?

The post you link to, also provides zero actual information on the case.
I recognize the point you are trying to imply, that maybe this was all just a manufactured story incorporating elements from many disparate media influences, but I think that is an extremely weak case.

The UFO she describes was nothing like the giant mothership from "Close Encounters" (just as one example).
Likewise, she didn't build a giant clay model of Devil's Tower in her living room. She didn't even climb into her vehicle and drive across the US to meet the ETs.

I certainly have no idea if this was an "ET encounter" but I think there are very strong arguements against this being a military encounter since there is simply no record of any huge flyover of Chinook helicopters on that night.

Until someone can actually find some evidence for such a flyover, it is just an assertion, or a hypothesis, and not a conclusion, or solution.

Originally posted by bluestreak53
The post you link to, also provides zero actual information on the case.

I agree, but the link was to the entire blog, not the particular speculative post.
Here are a few that are more substantial:
100 helicpters came in for effect
Exonerating the Helicopter Pilot
Documents on 1980 secret Helicopter operations

Originally posted by CardDown

Originally posted by bluestreak53
The post you link to, also provides zero actual information on the case.

I agree, but the link was to the entire blog, not the particular speculative post.
Here are a few that are more substantial:
100 helicpters came in for effect
Exonerating the Helicopter Pilot
Documents on 1980 secret Helicopter operations

Thanks, I'll read through this when I have more time after work.

Chris Lambright has provided what I believe to be the most accurate illustration yet of the Cash-Landrum UFO sighting. Check out this link, which also describes how the "ring of blue lights" red herring came to be.

"Chris had done a painting of the Socorro, New Mexico UFO sighting by Lonnie Zamora in an attempt to render it as technically accurate as possible. He used measurements from the official reports along with testimony and feedback from the witness in creating the painting. He was attempting to do the same thing with the Cash-Landrum sighting..."

--- Quest for an Accurate Picture of the Cash-Landrum UFO

reply to post by CardDown


Wow, thank you for this interesting article! The graphics are exactly the same as I imagined the scenario!

Just want to give a big shoutout to the OP. Have just recently joined the site and found the beginning post very interesting. Been sitting here for the last few hours reading every single post. Very interested to see what else we can find.

Again, great job!

reply to post by Infest


Thanks a lot Infest!

reply to post by Infest

Infest, are you new to this case, and what impressions do you have of it?

I'm personally drawn to the prospect that at least part of this mystery may be solved. Unlike Roswell, many of the participants and secondary witnesses are still alive, and there is yet hope for new testimony and evidence.

New article on the case by Shawn Jason of MUFON
Is the Cash-Landrum UFO Incident Solved?

When it comes to UFO reports, people often witness helicopters in close proximity to unidentified flying objects. While there are several examples of this, none are more well-known than the Cash-Landrum incident. The sighting occurred on December 29, 1980 and is one of the few cases in which the witnesses experienced adverse health issues as a result of it. In addition, it would later lead to a civil suit against the US government...

Sadly, the article relies on the erroneous depiction of a glowing UFO with a ring of lights. Check Chris Lambright's art based on eyewitness testimony for a truer picture of the UFO encounter.

Thanks for this interesting trace CD!! New hints lead to new questions. Here's a concept art of the escape capsule. But if it was the case, why would the rescue capsule use an atomic engine as a power source like the "mother ship"? Wouldn't it be too dangerous for the crew of 4 to sit on a reactor? How could they survive??

reply to post by Dalbeck

Dalbeck, almost everyone that's read the article has come away, as you and I did, that the author is proposing the LRV as a suspect for the C-L UFO. He's not, just saying it is evidence of development of nuke-powered craft. Chris Lambright strongly objected to the article (see comments), and the author replied:

Chris Lambright First, you're taking the article out of context. It was never suggested the LRV is the C-L craft. If so, please point it out. A diamond shape and saucer are apples and oranges. The comparison is based on the nuclear rocket propulsion system of the LRV and the rocket blasts witnessed on the C-L craft, as well as the radiation effects suffered by the witnesses. The military certainly wouldn't have ended their interest in said technology with just the LRV. If you can't see the similarities between these cases and don't understand why the two are related, then nothing I can say will help. You're not interested in a conversation, you're simply out to attack the material. I'm sorry the article wasn't what you wanted to read, as an investigator we must guard against seeing what it is we want... rather than what really is. You obviously don't believe the craft was alien, but fall short of saying it was nuclear. If the two craft didn't share a similar propulsion system, then how might you explain the radiation sickness as a result? Thanks for your input Chris. Hopefully my next article will be an easier read for you...

In any case, Shawn Jason fails to acknowledge that the injuries may have resulted from chemical agents. If so, looking for a nuclear-powered UFO is unnecessary. Once again, we are stalled by not having the medical records to know what direction to investigate.

reply to post by CardDown


I will try to get in contact with Dr. McClelland. He surely won't be allowed to give out any medical records but maybe he'll shed some light if it's possible that chemical agents could as well result in the injuries.

A quick research

www.facebook.com...

www.healthgrades.com...

doctor.webmd.com...

Since my spoken English is not the best maybe some American member on here would try to contact him and ask him for an interview?

(He's still in office as this recent picture from his facebook page proves:

)

reply to post by Dalbeck

Dalbeck, I gave Jim Moseley Dr. McClelland's contact info back in 2011, and he talked with him by telephone. Jim was unaware of the UFO Hunters episode, and was initially excited by the conversation, especially the story of the WASP II. When I explained that all Dr. McCelleand's info was old news (and basically hearsay), Jim didn't use the interview in his magazine.

The good news, is that yes, Dr. McClelland is approachable and willing to talk about things. I'm not sure if he could ethically release any medical records, but it is possible that he could do so with the permission of Betty's daughter, Mickey Geisinger.
---

In other news, I was asked to talk about the case on the Paracast. I managed to add something of value by persuading Chris Lambright to also appear, since he is one of the few civilian UFO investigators outside of MUFON that ever interviewed the witnesses.
Paracast: Cash-Landrum discussion with Chris Lambright & Curt Collins

This is my first post on ATS, just an enthusiast into the subject who has spent some time getting educated on the UFO phenomenon. Over the last two days I've tried to read all of the content in this thread but unfortunately haven't been able to watch most of the videos shared in it (most browsing occurs during downtime at work - youtube is blocked). Thus, a short disclaimer that this may already have been discussed or dismissed by an expert in one of the videos.


Early on in the thread, I believe it was dpd1 who referenced a potential link to a secret military helicopter training operation, and other users have connected the dots that perhaps it is tied to the Iran Hostage situation. I'm surprised this hasn't been explored (unless I missed it!) more thoroughly, as:

• The April 1980 Operation Eagle Claw in Iran exposed significant problems within our military on joint-operations (e.g. Air Force working with Army Rangers working with Delta Force operators + Navy coordination) that led to the ultimately failed mission outcome - specifically, a helicopter crashing into a parked C130 Hercules fixed-wing aircraft. The C130's were used not only as troop carriers but to carry 18,000 gallon fuel bladders for refueling. This failed mission (amongst other reasons) resulted in the creation of:
  
  1. The 160TH S.O.A.R. to train US Army pilots in night-terrain flying, low-level penetration, & aerial refueling.
  2. USSOCOM or US Special Ops Command, to control joint-missions during special operations
  3. An R&D push for more reliable transportation for specials ops, such as VTOL or STOL (short take-off & landing)
  (source: en.wikipedia.org... )
  

Such research, for example, led to Operation Credible Sport,

a joint project of the U.S. military in the second half of 1980 to prepare for a second rescue attempt of the hostages held in Iran using a Lockheed C-130 Hercules airlifter modified with the addition of rocket engines.

(source: en.wikipedia.org... )

The concept used these modified MC130 planes with rocket engine boosters flown by the 463d Airlift Group, which was stationed out of Dyess Air Force Base near Abilene, Texas and flew its first test (in Florida) in September, 1980.

Results of the first test:

The reverse-mounted (forward-facing) eight ASROC rockets for decelerating the aircraft's forward speed were situated in pairs on the fuselage's upper curvature behind the cockpit, and at the midpoint of each side of the fuselage beneath the uppers. ...[pilot error during the flight led to]...the aircraft's forward flight was immediately reduced to nearly zero, dropping it hard to the runway and breaking the starboard wing's spar between the third and fourth engines. During rollout, the trailing wing ignited a fire, but a medical evacuation helicopter dispersed the flame and crash response teams extinguished the fire within eight seconds of the aircraft stopping, enabling the crew to safely exit the aircraft. 74-1683 was dismantled and buried on-site for security reasons, but most of its unique systems were salvaged.

I'm not sure what kind of propellant ASROC uses (e.g. chemical? hydrazine? idk)

Relatedly, Bell Helicopters, including the division that created the Osprey, is based out of Fort Worth, TX. A quick internet search randomly turned up, i.e. Juergen Schmidt's linkedin page (don't spam him!) which includes the following work history:

Range Support Master
Bell Helicopter
October 1975 – February 1980 (4 years 5 months)Esfahan, Iran & Hurst, Texas
Directly supervised 8 range support specialists while conducting weapons loading and downloading during live fire exercises with IIAA (Imperial Iranian Army Aviation) AH-1J Cobra Helicopters. Also supervised first echelon maintenance on fire control and weapon systems.

Followed by

Helicopter Instructor Pilot
US Army & C-Co 1/160th SOAR (ABN)
1980 – 1996 (16 years)Ft Cambell, KY & Worldwide
Master Aviator with 8+ years Special Operations. Flew in direct support of National Command Authority while assigned to C-Co, 1/160th SOAR (ABN).

So... conclusions? Perhaps there was a special Ops training exercise in Texas preparing to rescue the hostages in Iran using this new delivery system. Maybe a helicopter towing a satchel of the 18,000 gallon fuel bladders hit an electrical line, and was snagged. The fuel could be burning while the helicopter was still above, giving the appearance that the craft was "bobbing" in place, and scorching the road below.
Image of a fuel bladder (correct me if this is the wrong "bladder"):



Or, perhaps one of the rocket-equipped STOL experimental aircraft had issues and had to fire the rockets or make an emergency landing on the road.

Just some ideas from a wannabe-internet-detective.

reply to post by mrzasa

Welcome aboard, and Good work! James Easton was exploring the Army's Task Force 158 as a possible source for the helicopters before he dropped out of sight. It looks like a good match, extended range, night missions, mix of helicopter types, need for secrecy and more.
I've been looking in to this, but haven't written much about it yet. Here's a couple of declassified documents on the program's secrecy: Blue Blurry Lines: Iran Rescue Connection? IF & THEN