The Abomination That Causes Desolation

Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
reply to post by bogomil

 

but it's always fascinating to see christian preachers and prophets from elitist positions hurl their verbal missiles at 'heretics'.

The question is who is the heretic, those that try to read the bible and apply what they learn,
or the clergy who said your to stupid to understand, and then violated what it taught?

I'm convinced, that it's more complex than that.

There may be clergy reading/not-reading (themselves relying on higher-hierarchy clergy for 'authority'); ..... there may be reading/non-reading clergy, which is authoritative/non-authoritative; .....there may be non-clergy reading/non-reading and authority-relying/non-authority-relying.

And as to '"what they learn"....back to square one.

But amongst the preachy elitist christianities it always comes back to 'authority' at the end of the day.

reply to post by Blue_Jay33

you either have faith that God can and would protect the only document that could lead his creation to salvation or you don`t.
It is about faith in God. And I will be bold and say Christians that allow secular research to degrade the bibles abilities as God`s protected source of true knowledge, have lost their faith in God himself.
The perceived degradation of the bible is a tool of Satanic origin.

You are aware of the verse in John that says, "No one has seen God at any time, the Son has declared him"

There is no document that adequately proclaims God. If the incorruptibility of a written document is a prerequisite for God working within the world or mankind, then we are utterly lost in blindness. The evidence of tampering is quite conclusive to those unafraid of losing God through the loss of words. I would hazard to guess that you were not called to fear, but rather to trust in Christ.

If Satan is the accuser, then people's defense against his accusations should be based on firmer ground than "divinely protected incorruptibility of words on paper".

MT 6:19 "Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20 But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

reply to post by pthena

I would hazard to guess that you were not called to fear, but rather to trust in Christ.

Funny that you don't see in Acts where the disciples are discussing future plans to vacate the city.
I was told this and still hear it that the believers were warned and knew to leave at the right time. I think they probably had left already mostly but were led by the spirit more than anything written.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

Your second paragraph, i agree with except where Yeshua retires the Old Testament. He said "i have not come to do away with the Old Law (OT), but to fulfill it".

MT 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
. . .
Dan 9:27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one `seven.' In the middle of the`seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. "

In one of the variants, of which I read 3 or 4, The meaning from the wording in Daniel matched what Jesus said. It should be obvious that Jesus intended to bring about this accomplishment or decreed end. Some one with better language skills should seriously take a very close look at this. It isn't obvious from currently accepted texts, hence tampering.

You've got a decent beginning at questioning authority. There is much more to see in history also.

reply to post by jmdewey60

I think they probably had left already mostly but were led by the spirit more than anything written.

I'm pretty sure it's in this thread that I mention James the brother of Jesus remaining in Jerusalem right up until he was killed. I must assume that by 62 AD, the date given for his death, the insurrection against Rome must have already been under way. Did the spirit lead him to stay and give one last testimony? In violation of the "words" Jesus said? Is this a case of Spirit trumping spoken authority in a person's life? Hmmm

reply to post by pthena

until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.

Is this something you could link to?
I am guessing this is the Greek but one a little different than what I remember.
Having it in the Greek would be helpful.

Instead of doubting Jesus and the whole realm of the Bible why don't people look at the world and see what is going on now and see if what he says show any signs of truth, he left clues for those who believe and for thoughs who don't believe will never see it anyway.

I believe the desolation comes from Iran.

The clues seem not so much in Revelation but in Daniel who speaks about him in two chapters.

Matthew 24

The Destruction of the Temple and Signs of the End Times

15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
Text

Is he Persian from Iran?
The threat is nearby like Iran, they want nuclear power, Russia supplies them Missiles and they want Israel off the map and no one is sure if he means literal or not but no one trusts Iran right now, they also seek the 12th Imam to return and they want to fulfil that prophecy in the form of a suicide mission, recent riots has suggested they don't trust the leaders either.

The Kings of the South and the North

2 “Now then, I tell you the truth: Three more kings will arise in Persia, and then a fourth, who will be far richer than all the others. When he has gained power by his wealth, he will stir up everyone against the kingdom of Greece. 3 Then a mighty king will arise, who will rule with great power and do as he pleases. 4 After he has arisen, his empire will be broken up and parceled out toward the four winds of heaven. It will not go to his descendants, nor will it have the power he exercised, because his empire will be uprooted and given to others.
Text

20 So he said, “Do you know why I have come to you? Soon I will return to fight against the prince of Persia, and when I go, the prince of Greece will come; 21 but first I will tell you what is written in the Book of Truth. (No one supports me against them except Michael, your prince.

Daniel 11

31 “His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation. 32 With flattery he will corrupt those who have violated the covenant, but the people who know their God will firmly resist him.
Text

40 “At the time of the end the king of the South will engage him in battle, and the king of the North will storm out against him with chariots and cavalry and a great fleet of ships. He will invade many countries and sweep through them like a flood. 41 He will also invade the Beautiful Land. Many countries will fall, but Edom, Moab and the leaders of Ammon will be delivered from his hand. 42 He will extend his power over many countries; Egypt will not escape. 43 He will gain control of the treasures of gold and silver and all the riches of Egypt, with the Libyans and Cu#es[e] in submission. 44 But reports from the east and the north will alarm him, and he will set out in a great rage to destroy and annihilate many. 45 He will pitch his royal tents between the seas at[f] the beautiful holy mountain. Yet he will come to his end, and no one will help him.
Text

Note Libya and Egypt will not escape, he will be from Persia-Iran it seems, why would Jesus quote a future from the prophecy of Daniel?

Daniel 12

The End Times
1 “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise[a] will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. 4 But you, Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge.”
Text

This is far future when the dead awake, the book of life mentioned in the Book of Revelation too.

.
Revelation 3:5
The one who is victorious will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out the name of that person from the book of life, but will acknowledge that name before my Father and his angels.
Text

It could also be +1000 years away from now.

reply to post by jmdewey60
What I downloaded was the NETS (A New English Translation of the Septuagint, 2007 Oxford University Press) It's Old Greek and Theodotion. I downloaded the pdf.
ccat.sas.upenn.edu...

"consummation" is used very many times, unlike current translations.

NIV footnote has this:

27 Or And one who causes desolation will come upon the pinnacle of the abominable temple, until the end that is decreed is poured out on the desolated city

The temple of Herod was an abomination, in and of itself, commissioned and funded by Herod who was Messiah of Jupiter (Jove) of the Roman Capitoline Hill. Did James cause desolation to the abominable temple by being thrown off of the pinnacle? Is that why James stayed in Jerusalem, and work in the temple?

The bottom line is this: Jesus never claimed the ability to say exact time or day. He took the "vaguely in this generation time frame"

MT 24:36 "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
. . .
DA 9:20 While I was speaking and praying, confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel and making my request to the LORD my God for his holy hill-- 21 while I was still in prayer, Gabriel, the man I had seen in the earlier vision, came to me in swift flight about the time of the evening sacrifice. 22 He instructed me and said to me, "Daniel, I have now come to give you insight and understanding. 23 As soon as you began to pray, an answer was given, which I have come to tell you, for you are highly esteemed. Therefore, consider the message and understand the vision:

Not even Gabriel knew, and he's the one who told it to Daniel.

I'm pretty sure that the prophecy was fulfilled, at the latest, when the abominable temple was destroyed in 70 AD

reply to post by The time lord


You wrote:

["Instead of doubting Jesus and the whole realm of the Bible why don't people look at the world and see what is going on now and see if what he says show any signs of truth, he left clues for those who believe and for thoughs who don't believe will never see it anyway."]

Possibly because a lot of people prefer to look at facts first, instead of adapting things to fit a pre-determined answer. But each to his/her taste as long as it doesn't interfere with other peoples' lives.

reply to post by pthena

What I downloaded was the NETS (A New English Translation of the Septuagint, 2007 Oxford University Press) It's Old Greek and Theodotion. I downloaded the pdf.

I actually bought the hard copy of that, probably with the intention to take it to church but no one was exactly interested in that sort of thing.

attachments.wetpaintserv.us...
This is the download to the word document for an interlinear version of Daniel, apparently from the papyrus copy.
I use Open Office to read it.

And when Jesus had finished speaking, the disciples were sorely shocked.
And one of them collapsed on the ground weeping.
And one of them grumbled angrily under his breath.
And yet another timidly spoke up, "But master, yesterday you said. . ."
And Jesus replied, "That was yesterday. I've changed my mind."


---------------------------------------------------
I've got to babysit for a while. Probably be offline for awhile.

reply to post by The time lord

Instead of doubting Jesus and the whole realm of the Bible why don't people look at the world and see what is going on now and see if what he says show any signs of truth, he left clues for those who believe and for thoughs who don't believe will never see it anyway.

You start out with what seems good advice, then switch to popular well funded Zionist scare propaganda.

I believe the desolation comes from Iran.

And when did Iran last invade anyone? "Nukes! Nukes!", you cry. Yet which country is it that has used nukes to kill and destroy?

Rev13:13 And he performed great and miraculous signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to earth in full view of men.

March 19, 2003 "Shock and Awe" fire from heaven televised live in full view of men. Who was this?

DA 11:29 "At the appointed time he will invade the South again, but this time the outcome will be different from what it was before. 30 Ships of the western coastlands will oppose him, and he will lose heart. Then he will turn back and vent his fury against the holy covenant. He will return and show favor to those who forsake the holy covenant.

The invasion of Iraq was strongly opposed by some traditional U.S. allies, including the governments of France, Germany, New Zealand, and Canada.[30][31][32] Their leaders argued that there was no evidence of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and that invading the country was not justified in the context of UNMOVIC's February 12, 2003 report. On February 15, 2003, a month before the invasion, there were worldwide protests against the Iraq war, including a rally of three million people in Rome, which is listed in the Guinness Book of Records as the largest ever anti-war rally.[33] According to the French academic Dominique Reynié, between January 3 and April 12, 2003, 36 million people across the globe took part in almost 3,000 protests against the Iraq war.[34]
2003 invasion of Iraq

What happened then? The UN Security Council did not approve the invasion. Therefore the term "Old Europe and New Europe" was coined, as the evil spirits that look like frogs went about assembling the "Coalition of the willing".

Thereafter, the Bush administration briefly used the term Coalition of the Willing to refer to the countries who supported, militarily or verbally, the military action in Iraq and subsequent military presence in post-invasion Iraq since 2003. The original list prepared in March 2003 included 49 members.[110] Of those 49, only six besides the U.S. contributed troops to the invasion force (the United Kingdom, Spain, Australia, Poland, Portugal, and Denmark), 33 provided some number of troops to support the occupation after the invasion was complete. Six members have no military.
Multilateral support

It may seem a far stretch to call the UN Charter and the Geneva Conventions the "holy covenant", but you know what? That's as close a thing as we have to a covenant AKA treaty dealing with international affairs.

And in the official US Army manuals, which I don't feel like looking up right now, the mission includes circumvention of international treaties which would hamper the US from pursuing its goals.

All those countries listed as invaded? See Does the Pentagon really have 1,180 foreign bases?
Even before the US did the Libya thing one of the US High Command officials was already bragging about CIA forces already in country.

So do a reality check of who actually is invading all the world before listening to US/Zion propaganda.

reply to post by bogomil

But each to his/her taste as long as it doesn't interfere with other peoples' lives.

Oh, but it does interfere with other people's lives. See my response to The Time lord.
And it comes down to elitist people in countries who consider themselves more "special to 'god' than others", therefore allowed to violate all laws of human decency because "god" wants them to, and they'll gladly whip out a bunch of OT genocidal verses to prove it.

Is it no wonder Jesus wanted an end to all that scripture supported death and destruction?

A lot of it has to do with prophecy and warning, that is what the Bible is for, Iran has not invaded anyone yet but has
Jesus / Isa (Islamic version)
Jesus Christ (Christian Version)
The Messiah (Jewish Version)
Arrived yet but people are prepared on all sides for their messiah who is different from each other than people will fight over it is in their scriptures to seek him.

The Christian Jesus will come back at Zion it is not the fault of believers if that is what is written.

I am sure Mecca holds its impotence so much so that non Muslims are not allowed in.

Christians and Muslims have two different views of what the final matter is. Both views of the end, however, cannot be true since they are diametrically opposed to each other. The Muslim Jesus descends and converts the world to Islam, kills the Jews, breaks crosses, declares himself a Muslim and gets married. He dies after 40-years.
www.truthnet.org...
Text

Maybe the Arabs have not invented the technology the rest of the world has in terms of weapons and used them but does not mean they are not also responsible with genocide and death across Africa and recent history, including max exodus of refugees from their lands. The sword still swings in those nations its even on their flags as a warning of their justice.

The Arabic propaganda is to hide and cover all evidence and build an opposing force that will eventually side with the wrong side once the times are right, while the Jewish people are thrown from country to country till there is none left and no one to blame for their demise.

Iran or that region has been in conflict with Iraq and in last 25 years at least million have been killed because of their differences before any American invasion.

en.wikipedia.org...

No one is sure of the total casualties during the Iran-Iraq war, but estimates range from 500,000 to 1 million dead, 1-2 million wounded, and more than 80,000 prisoners. There were approximately 2.5 million refugees, and whole cities were destroyed. The financial cost is estimated at a minimum of $200 billion.
Text

Secondly they are always fighting each other, if not themselves Christians, most of the worlds conflicts involve Islam and Islam is about submission and control down to its core, give them nuclear weapons I am sure they will fulfil Armageddon and the Gog and Magog war that the Bible warns us about.

Information is one way in the West, we know our evils because we question it, no one hears about theirs or remember their wars and attacks because they keep quiet about it, it’s always 'the crusades' but how many crusades under Islamic Conquest before the British fought back did it take?

reply to post by The time lord

Maybe the Arabs have not invented the technology the rest of the world has in terms of weapons and used them but does not mean they are not also responsible with genocide and death across Africa and recent history, including max exodus of refugees from their lands. The sword still swings in those nations its even on their flags as a warning of their justice.

That stuff was probably instigated and there are always racial animosities to be played on.
Now we have two Sudans and one can be bought up by China so you blame Muhammad, and by extension, you attack Iran.
There is a big game going on and you are caught in the smokescreen with the powers that be playing havoc using fear based religion to get people up in arms for no rational reason. War is deception, otherwise there would be no wars.

reply to post by The time lord

The Christian Jesus will come back at Zion it is not the fault of believers if that is what is written

Do you have a Christian verse for this, or are you relying on the Old Testament here?

Maybe the Arabs have not invented the technology the rest of the world has in terms of weapons and used them but does not mean they are not also responsible with genocide and death across Africa and recent history, including max exodus of refugees from their lands. The sword still swings in those nations its even on their flags as a warning of their justice.

What? Are you deluded into thinking Iranians are Arab? The US backed Arab Iraq against Persian Iran, supplied Saddam with the chemical weapons. The US is massively building up Arab military in the Gulf States against the Persian Iranians.

most of the worlds conflicts involve Islam

What??? Do you mean European and American invasion of Muslim countries?

Information is one way in the West, we know our evils because we question it,

I suggest that you question it a little more.
Here: You can read what I posted on
Iran vows to protect nuclear scientists

Originally posted by pthena
reply to post by The time lord

The Christian Jesus will come back at Zion it is not the fault of believers if that is what is written

Do you have a Christian verse for this, or are you relying on the Old Testament here?

Maybe the Arabs have not invented the technology the rest of the world has in terms of weapons and used them but does not mean they are not also responsible with genocide and death across Africa and recent history, including max exodus of refugees from their lands. The sword still swings in those nations its even on their flags as a warning of their justice.

What? Are you deluded into thinking Iranians are Arab? The US backed Arab Iraq against Persian Iran, supplied Saddam with the chemical weapons. The US is massively building up Arab military in the Gulf States against the Persian Iranians.

most of the worlds conflicts involve Islam

What??? Do you mean European and American invasion of Muslim countries?

Information is one way in the West, we know our evils because we question it,

I suggest that you question it a little more.

Also relying on the Old Testament Zion is mentioned a few times but the NT says so too.

Romans 9:33
As it is written: “See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame.”

Romans 11:26
and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.

Revelation 14:1
[ The Lamb and the 144,000 ] Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads.

Matthew 21:5
“Say to Daughter Zion, ‘See, your king comes to you, gentle and riding on a donkey, and on a colt, the foal of a donkey.’”

I know Persians are Iranians, but their agenda is Islamic pro Arab these days I mentioned it else where on ATS.

Todays conflicts around the world.

The world is seperated between the Islamic world and the non islamic world and the two can not meet in the middle nor can a non-Muslim element in one part of the world fit in with peace for all religions within its belief system, let alone society and even public places has where demand of separation is needed, even the smallest details like types of food, crosses, alcohole, pets like dogs that has demanded seperation in everyday life so that on a grand scale these things bring about war.

Conflicts around the world today:

Country and Main religious groups involved

» 1. Afghanistan Extreme radical Fundamentalist Muslim terrorist groups & non-Muslim Osama bin Laden heads a terrorist group called Al Quada (The Source) whose headquarters were in Afghanistan.
» 2. Bosnia Serbian Orthodox Christians, Roman Catholic, Muslims
» 3. Cote d’Ivoire Muslims, Indigenous, Christians
» 4. Cyprus Christians & Muslims
» 5. East Timor Christians & Muslims
» 6. Indonesia, province of Ambon Christians & Muslims
» 7. Kashmir Hindus and Muslims
» 8. Kosovo Serbian Orthodox Christians, Muslims
» 9. Kurdistan Christians, Muslims Assaults on Christians (Protestant, Chaldean Catholic & Assyrian Orthodox). Bombing campaign underway.
» 10. Macedonia Macedonian Orthodox Christians & Muslims
» 11. Middle East Jews, Muslims, &Christians
» 12. Nigeria Christians, Animists, & Muslims
» 13. Pakistan Suni & Shi’ite Muslims
» 14. Philippines Christians & Muslims
» 15. Russia, Chechnya Russian Orthodox Christians, Muslims. The Russian army attacked the breakaway region. Muslims had allegedly blown up buildings in Moscow. Many atrocities have been alleged.
» 16. Serbia, province of Vojvodina Serbian Orthodox & Roman Catholics
» 17. Sri Lanka Buddhists & Hindus Tamils
» Additional conflicts
» 19. Thailand: Pattani province: Buddhists and Muslims
» 20. Bangladesh: Muslim-Hindu (Bengalis) and Buddhists (Chakmas)
» 21. Tajikistan: intra-Islamic conflict
Text

Muslims kill Muslims anyway it is evident but on top of that they will never get along with another religion unless that religion is subdued in some way and on their terms.

It would be better if the world left them to it, I agree America and Britain should stop any form of help towards the people of these nations so that at least they don't make the rest of us look guilty when they go wrong.

Hopefully America has learned never to supply weapons to the Middle East again, or be tempted by money, I don't think they just gave it to them.

But now Russia is looming who are filling the void and getting rich from selling missiles to Iran and America and Israel do not trust them as they await their Mahdi to arrive in their preparations.

reply to post by The time lord

Romans 9:33
As it is written: “See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame.”

Already done, the first time.

Romans 11:26
and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.

Already done, the first time.

Matthew 21:5
“Say to Daughter Zion, ‘See, your king comes to you, gentle and riding on a donkey, and on a colt, the foal of a donkey.’

Done.
I hope you aren't claiming that the Christ is yet to come in the flesh, because:

2JN 1:7 Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.

Revelation 14:1
[ The Lamb and the 144,000 ] Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads.

Now look what you've done!!! You left out huge portions of Revelation. Great!

Rev22:19 And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

You can't just take a quote and leave the rest without suffering this curse. You either must recite the whole book or leave it alone. Oh man! Now look what I've gone and done!

The world is seperated between the Islamic world and the non islamic world and the two can not meet in the middle nor can a non-Muslim element in one part of the world fit in with peace,

The US fits in quite nicely, thank you very much, while supplying weapons.

reply to post by The time lord

Revelation 14:1
[ The Lamb and the 144,000 ] Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads

It also seems to be in very close proximity to heaven where you could hear harp music coming from it and and close enough to the throne where the elders were listening to 144,00 singing.

reply to post by jmdewey60

I think I'm done here. My conclusions are these:

1) The verses under discussion show clear signs of tampering.
2) The tampering has been done to cause further invasion, over and over, of the city of Jerusalem.
3) Herod's temple was an abomination in and of itself, simply by being Herod's temple.
4) Jesus had every intention of ending the jurisdiction of the Law and Prophets
5) James stuck it out to the end, until he got killed anyway.
6) The destruction of 70 AD was the final unambiguous end for any temple nonsense
7) Any quest for or desire for stone temples is sheer unbelief in Christ, of the evil one, and is idolatry plain and simple.
8) Yahweh is not God
9) Any advantage in being an Israelite or Jew or anything else ended in 70 AD with the abominable temple.

I don't feel like arguing with people who just don't get it, and ignore evidence presented plainly for rational consideration.

As a pagan gentile, I really don't consider the Old Testament as anything but a source material for what some people once believed and taught. Of no value whatsoever in trying to live one's life by. Every "law" in it leads to the requirement that someone must kill me violently. No thank you.