The Abomination That Causes Desolation

I had a discussion about this quite a while back and I finally wrote out the verses as a literal translation so we could get a look at what it was that we were talking about. Doing that pretty much stopped that thread.
I thought it might be good to try doing some of that again, since we have a lot of new people on this forum.
All I am doing is copying the word for word translation which anyone can do by going to the Biblos web site.
Daniel 8:13
Heard and another a holy speaking said and another one certain was speaking against how will the vision the regular the transgression causes to allow the holy and the host tread -ing
Daniel 9:26
after weeks threescore and two will be cut the Messiah and have the city and the sanctuary will destroy and the people of the prince come in a flood even to the end will be war are determined desolations.

These are the key verses in Daniel concerning the abomination of desolation.
Feel confused now? You should. Just making a regular translation, from this word for word translation, into normal English requires a huge amount of interpretation, and that is just the beginning of what happens with these otherwise obscure verses.

Here let me translate that for you properly:

Obama Nation is the cause of desolation.

I don't get what you are trying to say, the desolation is mentioned a few times in the New Testament.

Matthew 24:15
“So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—

Mark 13:14
“When you see ‘the abomination that causes desolation’ standing where it does not belong—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Revelation 17:5
The name written on her forehead was a mystery: BABYLON THE GREAT THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

2 Thessalonians 2
The Man of Lawlessness

Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

reply to post by jmdewey60


It makes the translations of the Nag Hammadi scriptures look like kindergarten stuff.

For those of us not familiar with the finer points of bible-translation, - interpretation and advanced doctrinal/propaganda-use of such, what is the 'official' christian conclusion on this?

Well knowing, that there probably are several options to choose between, please take a mainstream version or two and relate it to the specific ideological twist of that part of christianity.

reply to post by The time lord

I don't get what you are trying to say, the desolation is mentioned a few times in the New Testament.

Alright give me a minute.
Oh, you beat me to it.
I figured someone would cite the NT verses that refer back to Daniel.
I was just laying out what the foundation of it all is, from the Hebrew.

reply to post by jmdewey60

The abomination that caused the desolation suffered from constipation caused by the regulation that resulted from the proclamation regarding the interpitation. Therfore we can with no certian uncertianity presume that the explenation of the situation can mitigate the anticipation of the coronation which would lead to annihilation of the congregation that failed to understand the proper translation...

I hope that clears things up a bit.

Originally posted by bogomil
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

It makes the translations of the Nag Hammadi scriptures look like kindergarten stuff.
For those of us not familiar with the finer points of bible-translation, - interpretation and advanced doctrinal/propaganda-use of such, what is the 'official' christian conclusion on this?
Well knowing, that there probably are several options to choose between, please take a mainstream version or two and relate it to the specific ideological twist of that part of christianity.

I'm not exactly advanced in doing translations and I can do like one verse if I work at it.
Right, I could quote some different versions for comparison.

Originally posted by redzareptile
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

The abomination that caused the desolation suffered from constipation caused by the regulation that resulted from the proclamation regarding the interpitation. Therfore we can with no certian uncertianity presume that the explenation of the situation can mitigate the anticipation of the coronation which would lead to annihilation of the congregation that failed to understand the proper translation...

I hope that clears things up a bit.

I think so. I guess we can close the thread now.
I think we need to delve into the implications a bit, though.

reply to post by jmdewey60

LOL... Thnaks for understanding my humor... Not trying to bring the thread down. I just felt like a little humor was in order.

I do know that there are too many stand-up bible scholars holding the newspaper in one hand while holding the bible in the other. They fail to fully grasp the tricky interpitaions of the bible while applying their meaning to CNN.

I

reply to post by redzareptile


that brought a smile to my face!! loved it!

Originally posted by jmdewey60

Originally posted by bogomil
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

It makes the translations of the Nag Hammadi scriptures look like kindergarten stuff.
For those of us not familiar with the finer points of bible-translation, - interpretation and advanced doctrinal/propaganda-use of such, what is the 'official' christian conclusion on this?
Well knowing, that there probably are several options to choose between, please take a mainstream version or two and relate it to the specific ideological twist of that part of christianity.

I'm not exactly advanced in doing translations and I can do like one verse if I work at it.
Right, I could quote some different versions for comparison.

You are usually quite good with positioning various doctrinal directions though.

Daniel 9:25
know and discern at the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince weeks seven weeks and threescore and two again will be built plaza and moat of distress times
9:26
after weeks threescore and two will be cut the Messiah and have the city and the sanctuary will destroy and the people of the prince come in a flood even to the end will be war are determined desolations
9:27
will make covenant the many week one the middle of the week will put to sacrifice offering and on the wing of abominations makes until a complete is decreed is poured and desolate

So this is this one grouping of verses which I only quoted the central one of earlier.
This is a good web site that I use all the time and they are very accurate and reliable translations.
Like I said, this is done to it certain things, beyond this direct sort of translation, in the sake of putting it into supposedly, the way we would speak today. Which may or may not be a legitimate thing to do but is probably what is demanded by people who spend money to buy a Bible.

I will quote a few versions to see how the original text faired the transition into a more modern mode of speach.

NIV Daniel 9:25
"Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven 'sevens,' and sixty-two 'sevens.' It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble.
9:26
After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed.
9:27
He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing [of the temple] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."

Compairing the lteral to the "modern" translation, I notice in verse 25, Moat being substituted with Trench, probably to fit the fact that Jerusalem did not have a moat, but may or may not have had a trench, however you may want to define a trench, which could, technically, be a foot wide. I believe a lot of it had steep hillsides that dropped down past the walls so there would not have been any kind of construction. My guess is they had a camp on one of the hills of Jerusalem that a defence could be thrown up for a small company of men.
In verse 26, I see "will be cut the Messiah " substituted with "the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing". Bit of a difference, and it may be worth seeing where that comes from. Obviously it is an interpretation that takes a single word and replaces it with six.
There are 56 variation of the root word, which just means, cut. Of those that are identical to the spelling in this verse, there are 25 other verses in the OT that use it. We could take a look at how it is sometimes translated, other than this one time.
I sometimes find interesting connections this way, and guess what, I see a really great one right now. I think I will share this with the reader.

Genesis 9:11 I confirm my covenant with you: Never again will all living things be wiped out by the waters of a flood; never again will a flood destroy the earth.”

Any words here sound familiar? Lets see, "confirm", "covenent", "wiped out" (the word I was doing the search on) "destroy", and "flood". All in the verses I quoted earlier.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by The time lord

 

I don't get what you are trying to say, the desolation is mentioned a few times in the New Testament.

Alright give me a minute.
Oh, you beat me to it.
I figured someone would cite the NT verses that refer back to Daniel.
I was just laying out what the foundation of it all is, from the Hebrew.

Ummm, did you have your coffee this morning? You didn't quote the part of Daniel that Christ was referencing when answering the apostle's questions about the end of the age and His return (Matthew 24:15).

Try Daniel 12:11 JM. You can stick with the two verses you described in the OP, but if you do then you're ascribing Jesus the Messiah as the "abomination" and not the coming man of sin.

To continue my comparison, what I see going on here in the "modernization" process, the change in the meaning which clearly, to me based on looking at what Daniel was using as an analogy to explain what he was hearing in vision, just means to be killed, as in a tree being cut down in the way Job uses that precise word, to use a different meaning among those twenty five other verses that use the same precise spelling.
Here's an example of something the translator would be looking at as a way to justify this substitution:

2 Chronicles 7:18 Then I will establish your dynasty, just as I promised your father David, ‘You will not fail to have a successor ruling over Israel.’

This word I am looking at is found by looking at the literal translation:
will establish throne your royal I covenanted David your father saying shall not lack a man ruler Israel

It is here translated as, Lack, but more literally means cut off. ". . .no cut man. . ." is the real word for word.
So the translator says, "Well here is this word being translated this way, and it has to do with a prince, and the word Prince is in Daniel, so we can do this."
Have a good time if you are the average Bible reader and don't realize they are actually reading a Bible commentary written to fit a preconceived idea of what they would like to see as being fulfilled, after the fact.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Ummm, did you have your coffee this morning? You didn't quote the part of Daniel that Christ was referencing when answering the apostle's questions about the end of the age and His return (Matthew 24:15).

Try Daniel 12:11 JM. You can stick with the two verses you described in the OP, but if you do then you're ascribing Jesus the Messiah as the "abomination" and not the coming man of sin.

I'm not ascribing anything, yet.
I went to a web site called Bible Q, Bible questions answered, and the page, What is the “abomination that causes desolation” spoken of by Daniel and Jesus?
I pulled off the verses they cite. I figured that was good enough for my purpose, which is to have at least one verse to put in the OP to start a thread. You are reading things into it that are not there.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Well the verses that website attributes to Jesus answering the apostle's questions regarding the abomination of desolation are incorrect. Are they trying to insinuate that Jesus is the "abomination"? Is it a pro-Judaism website?

Jesus referenced Daniel 12:11 when speaking to His disciples in Matthew 24:15.

reply to post by NOTurTypical
I told you that you are reading something that is not there.
I went to the Google search bar and put in a couple words the I copied off someones post on a prophecy thread here.
I clicked on the first hit and looked up the first verses I saw in Daniel to start a thread.
The thread is about examining the words in these verses to see if they go along with any of the various theories.
My opinion is that it is so ambiguous that the correct interpretation may be impossible.
Anyone who thinks they have the answer are welcome to post it here.
I don't have a particular stand on it at this time, other than it is difficult to draw anything definite from these and will require a lot of looking to come to a conclusion.

ETA: I didn't actually read anything on that site, just looked up the verses on other sites, then closed the window. If you want to use that site to argue its points, go ahead, I'm just saying that all I know is it is for some reason the #1 on Google.

Seek the Lord while he makes himself available;
call to him while he is nearby!
The wicked need to abandon their lifestyle
and sinful people their plans.
They should return to the Lord, and he will show mercy to them,
and to their God, for he will freely forgive them.
“Indeed, my plans are not like your plans,
and my deeds are not like your deeds,
for just as the sky is higher than the earth,
so my deeds are superior to your deeds
and my plans superior to your plans.
The rain and snow fall from the sky
and do not return,
but instead water the earth
and make it produce and yield crops,
and provide seed for the planter and food for those who must eat.
In the same way, the promise that I make
does not return to me, having accomplished nothing.
No, it is realized as I desire
and is fulfilled as I intend.”
Indeed you will go out with joy;
you will be led along in peace;
the mountains and hills will give a joyful shout before you,
and all the trees in the field will clap their hands.
Evergreens will grow in place of thorn bushes,
firs will grow in place of nettles;
they will be a monument to the Lord,
a permanent reminder that will remain.


This is another of the twenty five verses that have that form of the word, Cut, which is out of the 56 or whatever different forms of the word.
I took an interest because it seems to be a prophetic way of looking at the concept of covenent.
The one in particular here is Isaiah 55:13. At the very end, this translation, NETBible, says "that will remain" which come from the Hebrew that says, "not cut".
So here is another meaning for cut but it is used in the negative, while our Daniel verse has it in the positive, that whatever, or whoever is cut. Using the meaning as in this verse in Isaiah, it would mean that what or who that is being cut is not permanent.