For black Britons, this is not the 80s revisited. It's worse

When idealogues are confronted with the reality that thier stupid little theories just don't correspond to reality - they usually just go into denial and double down mode - when the monstous size of their failures becomes percieved as 'too big to fail' - then all hope is lost.

Originally posted by The Revenant

Originally posted by JennaDarling
When you travel abroad, have a different accent etc or do not speak the language, ofcourse people ask where you are from, not out of hatred, it is out of CURIOSITY and to GET TO KNOW YOU. That is called being friendly and sociable.

Yes, and I remember in Tunisia that when I didn't want to get bothered by a salesman, I would put on my famous Scottish accent and say "Nee thanks laddie, I'm nay interested." The salesman would instantly recognise the notorious Scottish accent and leave me alone. They had a stereotypical, and widely held perception of Scottish folks as being loud, volatile and potentially dangerous. Is this true? No of course not.

All it took was a couple of social cues and they 'cast me out' of their normal social operating routine. I was segregated because of my accent and perceived cultural background.

Just like many poor people - not just black people - are in the UK today. The word 'chav' comes to mind. We can't let a chav into our nice school now can we? We cant let a chav into our local shop now can we? See my point?

The Revenant.

You made clear you werent interested, that probably came across as hostile and he went about his business.

Did it ever occur to you that perhaps when in a different country, you should perhaps change your approach that would be seen as less hostile?

When a brit or especially an Irish person uses the word "f cuk" in a normal tone, they see no offense in that use of the word, as we all know, but if you do that in Europe, you will be treated as being hostile, it is very very rude.

Originally posted by The Revenant
I'm afraid I disagree. To be 'black' and 'british' carries with it it's own identity, despite attempts on a varied basis to subsume this identity within the greater national cultural identity. Yes, there are lots of different variations and elements of this identity, but to be black and british means you're automatically going to be more vulernable to stop and search powers for example.

That in and by itself would create a 'black & british' identity.

The Revenant.

Some black people may share an identity based on their own personal experiences, but I wouldn't say that that constitutes a culture on its own. For example, a football fan of one particular team usually forms an instant bond with a complete stranger who supports the same team, because they share similar experiences and aspirations, yet I would hardly class all fans of one football team as an independent subculture.

Disputing the concept of an all-encompassing ''black British culture'' is not an act of pedantry on my part. There is a big distinction between multiculturalism and multiracialism, although, at times, they can intersect with each other.

If the argument is that some less well off black British people have been left excluded and ostracised by society, then that is a societal problem with multiracialism rather than multiculturalism.

While black people from less well off areas may be targeted more by police, I doubt the experiences of teenagers and young men of other races from these same areas are too dissimilar.

It would be naive to think that black people don't still suffer prejudice and discrimination at times, but I can't help feeling that the main cause of discrimination is more along social and class lines.

Where I live, there's one postcode which contains two large council estates and one area which are associated with crime and other problems. These areas are mostly populated by white people, and I've heard on several occasions when talking to people from these areas ( especially young males ) that they are constantly being overlooked and discriminated against because of the postcode that they enter every time they fill out a form.

Race plays a part, but I'm yet to see anything to suggest that the main reason for social exclusion for people of these backgrounds is anything other than class and wealth, and the self-perpetuating cycle of being stuck in a crime-ridden urban area which society at large may look down their noses at.

Originally posted by JennaDarling
You made clear you werent interested, that probably came across as hostile and he went about his business.

Did it ever occur to you that perhaps when in a different country, you should perhaps change your approach that would be seen as less hostile?

When a brit or especially an Irish person uses the word "f cuk" in a normal tone, they see no offense in that use of the word, as we all know, but if you do that in Europe, you will be treated as being hostile, it is very very rude.

I used all sorts of approaches - I didn't just stick to that one. I was often very receptive and did some good deals in the ?Soukhs? of Sousse. I changed my approach all the time, but found it very interesting that a particular set of social cues caused such a strong reaction. Hence why I used them.

I understand the different social cues have different responses in different areas. But does that mean that you're right in suggesting that minorities in the UK seclude and segregate themselves actively because they 'dont want to fit in'? No, definitely not. It just means that the British 'identity' is marginally intolerant, and inherently patronisingly racist - the old imperial attitude.

The Revenant.

I tend to find people are like Mirrors... They reflect what you show them.

I have been in the position where I personally isolated myself during my travels at some point, that is not the way to handle a "minority" situation, the thing to do is take a look at yourself and objectively look at the situation, 9 out of 10 times you will find it is yourself not the other person that is at fault.

You have to be consious of how you project yourself, this helps with all facits of life, including work, probably especially at work.

From my experience people stretch a lot to welcome you, but people are like springs, you have to stretch too. Having one person do all the stretching will cause them to spring back eventually from the effort and stress. They can only stretch so far, an olive branch as it where, you have to do the rest.

Originally posted by Sherlock Holmes
Race plays a part, but I'm yet to see anything to suggest that the main reason for social exclusion for people of these backgrounds is anything other than class and wealth, and the self-perpetuating cycle of being stuck in a crime-ridden urban area which society at large may look down their noses at.

As usual, you've made some great points and created an excellent post.

I can't dispute what you're saying - but I do feel that the association between being a poor, urban area dwelling citizen, and being a generic 'black-British' person is far too strong in the public minds-eye. Hence why people suggest that said black folk seclude themselves, people are literally wondering why they don't get themselves out of said situation....

And my answer would be, because for the most part, us white folk wont let them.

The Revenant.

Originally posted by JennaDarling

I tend to find people are like Mirrors... They reflect what you show them.

This, I totally agree with. If you plant a label on someone for long enough, they will start acting the part. Hence the recent riots.

The Revenant.

Originally posted by The Revenant

Originally posted by JennaDarling

I tend to find people are like Mirrors... They reflect what you show them.

This, I totally agree with. If you plant a label on someone for long enough, they will start acting the part. Hence the recent riots.

The Revenant.

The only label that got planted onto them was "rioters" "trouble makers" and that was because of their own actions and it applies to ALL of them regardless of who what where they are.

I think it's also important to remember that not all black and asian Britons live in segregated inner city slums. I live in an area of Bristol which is about 80% white, a mixture of working and middle class, but there are also quite a few blacks and asians around here too. However around here the different types are not at all segregated, most people around here mix and socialise together regardless of race or class, and there are quite a few inter class and inter racial couples as well. For the most part we just identify with the area itself, and if two people fall out it's just a personal thing. I wish all of England was like it is here. A far cry from the sink estate I grew up in.

Originally posted by JennaDarling
The only label that got planted onto them was "rioters" "trouble makers" and that was because of their own actions and it applies to ALL of them regardless of who what where they are.

I disagree.

The relevant people have had the labels "young hooligan", "chav", "criminal", "hoodie", "feral youth" etc etc applied to them for FAR TOO LONG now - simply because of the lifestyles they lead (criminal or not), the way they look, their poverty, and their place of living. All you have to do is read the Daily Mail to see daily examples of this...

They are acting up to the publics expectations of them. Hence why they don't care about the police or common decency.

The Revenant.

reply to post by The Revenant

They are acting up to the publics expectations of them. Hence why they don't care about the police or common decency.

It's called the self fulfilling prophecy.

Self-fulfilling prophecy is a phenomenon by which people’s expectations about the future events lead them to behave in particular ways that, on occasion, can cause the expected event to occur. People tend to find what they are looking for. More than that, they may even tend, unwittingly, to create what they seek.

www.motivation-tools.com...

reply to post by woodwardjnr


Indeed - that's an excellent way of summing the issue up neatly.

If we could all understand that we are all creating this self-fulfilling prophecy in this area, as well as others, we'd begin to walk down the road of putting an end to it.

The Revenant.

Originally posted by The Revenant

Originally posted by JennaDarling
The only label that got planted onto them was "rioters" "trouble makers" and that was because of their own actions and it applies to ALL of them regardless of who what where they are.

I disagree.

The relevant people have had the labels "young hooligan", "chav", "criminal", "hoodie", "feral youth" etc etc applied to them for FAR TOO LONG now - simply because of the lifestyles they lead (criminal or not), the way they look, their poverty, and their place of living. All you have to do is read the Daily Mail to see daily examples of this...

They are acting up to the publics expectations of them. Hence why they don't care about the police or common decency.

The Revenant.

So prove those expectatons wrong.

There is a saying "reputation precceds you", well that usually is based on past events. So go prove that reptuation wrong.



Basically it comes down to 2 choices.

1) Meet their expectations, do what they expect or accuse you off in retiliation / revenge / hatred / anger
2) Prove them wrong, take the high road, walk away.

Most people choose option 1) , I myself have at times, when option 2) is what should have been chosen.

Everything I am saying comes down from first hand experience. I do know what I am talking about, because I have been in those situations.

im sorry Reverant but i have just been watching sky channel 370 and it struck me! .....the dizzy rascals lost their Tiny Tempers because they diddnt have 50cents to feed their Snoop Dogs, sorry could not resist,lol.
and in great yorkshire fashion, the blacks have been lucky you should have a look at the state of the white trash of yorkshire who are literally second class citizens in those predominantly black ghettoes.

reply to post by The Revenant


If you are one of the slowly fading middle classes or lower classes etc in Briton, you are purely a serf, regardless of what colour you are. Its always been like this, its nothing new, in fact if many people coming here actually knew this country's historical attitude towards its serfs, you probably would think twice before arriving.

I don't think the rise in the far right is especially about blacks or any other particular group, its more about the fact that more people than ever before are moving into Europe and this is threatening jobs and placing the infrastructure of European countries under threat.

In Briton you have always had a huge class divide. When the Queen's cousin runs parliament you see the old ties operating. Look at the front Benches and find one who isn't a millionaire. How many of us ordinary people relate to any of this ruling class regardless of our skin colour.

Originally posted by The Revenant
As usual, you've made some great points and created an excellent post.

Cheers, mate.

Originally posted by The Revenant
I can't dispute what you're saying - but I do feel that the association between being a poor, urban area dwelling citizen, and being a generic 'black-British' person is far too strong in the public minds-eye.

Yes, I know what you mean. A lot of people seem to form a prejudiced view of black people, as a whole, because they lap up the stereotypic image of an ''urban'' black male and all the negative aspects associated with that stereotype - guns, crime, drugs, absent father, etc. - and indiscriminately apply that image to all black people in Britain.

Originally posted by The Revenant
Hence why people suggest that said black folk seclude themselves, people are literally wondering why they don't get themselves out of said situation....

As has been mentioned, it's a self-perpetuating cycle, with crime-ridden, inner-city areas, populated by large numbers of black people, leading a lot of people to - consciously or sub-consciously - associate black men with criminality. A lot of people then discriminate against black people based on this association, which leads some black men to feel hostile to authority, or society in general, and this makes them slide towards the urban subculture lifestyle, and the rampant criminality which goes along with it, leading to the perpetuation of crime in these communities, which, in turn, leads some people outside these communities to continue to automatically link black men with crime... and so it goes on ad infinitum.

The cycle needs to be broken, but both sides need to make changes. Wallowing in victimhood is counter-productive for anybody in any given situation. It doesn't help the wallower, nor does it help to improve the situation on a broader scale.

I still believe that the problems are predominantly social and class related, rather than racial. For example, if there was a white manger interviewing two interviewees, one being a 40-year-old smart, professional black man, and the other being a slouching, gold-chain wearing, baseball cap and saggy pants attired 18-year-old white man, do you really think the interviewer would, on first impressions, favour the ''street'' looking white guy over the professional looking black guy ? I doubt it.

Which would lead me to believe that the main reason someone would immediately look favourably or unfavourably on someone's appearance in that situation, would be because of stereotypical views of someone's class, rather than race.

Originally posted by Lynda101
reply to post by The Revenant

 

If you are one of the slowly fading middle classes or lower classes etc in Briton, you are purely a serf, regardless of what colour you are. Its always been like this, its nothing new, in fact if many people coming here actually knew this country's historical attitude towards its serfs, you probably would think twice before arriving.

I don't think the rise in the far right is especially about blacks or any other particular group, its more about the fact that more people than ever before are moving into Europe and this is threatening jobs and placing the infrastructure of European countries under threat.

In Briton you have always had a huge class divide. When the Queen's cousin runs parliament you see the old ties operating. Look at the front Benches and find one who isn't a millionaire. How many of us ordinary people relate to any of this ruling class regardless of our skin colour.

Britain a classless society? Lol never will happen without a revolution French style.

As for jobs. The same could be said for all the British people working abroad taking their jobs. That is a two way door. One cannot just take, they have to give aswell.

reply to post by JennaDarling


I would love to see a guillotine being set up in London and elsewhere. I am sorry Cromwell reinstated Royalty here, he made a huge mistake.

I take your point about Brits going abroad to live and work. However, you forgot to acknowledge the huge amounts of foreign aid, and extra aid given by the people of this country year in and year out. Which ameliorates to an extent any Brit arriving simply with a begging bowl. Many arrive with money, qualifications and a willingness to work to blend into their new life. and many scamper back home after a while.

One of my grievances about this situation is that the government should have seen this coming especially had they connected with the people. the situation here is dire, my son sent over 80 letters out trying to get an apprenticeship. He had 3 replies none of which wanted him. Its the same whatever skin colour you are, a lack of investment without which there is little opportunity, cheaper labour abroad.

I read on another thread that similar riots occurred in Canada albeit noone was prosecuted. Some of the sentencing is astonishing and I am astounded at the alacrity with which it is being carried out. Clearly a message from 'Big Cam' he means business for the serfs. One cannot but notice how the FTSE has risen, some of its good fortune is clearly connected to the fact that rioting has been stamped out. Amazing how Briton's lack lustre resources can be galvanised so fast when it comes to helping the stock exchange.

I am a tad hazy on the whole*Cromwell reinstated royalty* bit.
WTF?

In my experience, the most under represented people are white ENGLISH, where by England and English was made illegal by Labour, instead we had to be British! I don't agree with any of this, in my experience recent decade has been nothing but pushing ethnic minorities, in particular black people, above everyone else. In the work place, socially, media, entertainment. However, this has simply served to INCREASE the victim mentality of we are persecuted, you owe us a living. However, this is just inner city black people. There are many successful black people who would shrug their shoulders at this thread and I know a few who openly state that it's simply bone idle lazy people with excuses that shout the loudest in this country. I agree with that, if you want to achieve, you will achieve.