Is it possible that all religions sprang from God?

Originally posted by thethirdmovement
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

Religion is bull# its designed to keep the population under control, you really think there is a great being in the universe that controls everything? Why do innocent people die then?

God decreed it "rains on the just and unjust alike". Its a dogmatic answer, but is it not true? Innocent people wouldnt die if there truly were innocent people. However, there are no innocent people. We are all born to die because of our forebears sins of disobeying God. I am christian so that explains my answer for you.

The only reason you believe that religion is a tool to keep the population under control is because of how it has been used in the passed. Namely the Roman Catholic Chruch, who wrongfully flaunted its power in the Dark Ages by blasphemously selling real estate in heaven, and threatening to excommunicate anyone that dared to threaten their power. The Spanish Inquisition was also backed by the Holy Roman Catholic Church which gave authority to the Dominicans to torture protestant christians or kill them for witchcraft if they didnt confess and convert, which they killed them anyway if they confessed and converted.

Religion is an evil institution, used by FALSE christians to do exactly as you say "control the population". Christianity in itself is not a religion, its a FAITH. Islam,Judaism,Christianity all are derived from the same belief in the One True God, with 1 distinction between the two. Jews do not believe the savior has come yet, Muslims do not believe that Jesus (real name Yeshua) is the savior, while Christians believe he IS the savior.

Due to religion, great evil is perpetrated on the world because corrupt MEN using it for their own selfish purposes and God will set the matter straight in the end, their reckoning will come. Do not make the mistake of judging all people that have faith with the monsters who are corrupt and use it for their own gain or to commit evil acts. Belief in God is not religion, its a way of life. We choose to obey his laws because he is right, without his laws mankind is left to chaos and anarchy, there would be no order. MOST of mankinds laws are based off of God's laws, even more so in the U.S.

Originally posted by SumerianSoldier
First, this is accepting that the bible is a historicical document, (Maybe not the correct term) but there are no other documents that truly corroborate the bible. It has to stand by itself and, IMO, I don't think it does. My personal beliefs are that the bible is plagiarized from the Sumerian texts. (As evidenced by my name.)
Yet, Even the biblical God acknowledges the existence of other Gods in his commandment: Thou Shalt have no other God before me for I am a JEALOUS God... (Jealousy being synonymous with Envy, envy being one of the 7 deadly sins, obliterating the belief that God is without sin, but that's another argument)

So that (again,IMO) kind of undermines the singularity of God's deity and perfection, Else, I think he (God) would have worded the commandment differently. Maybe like, Thou shalt not put lesser gods before me, or Thou shalt not worship any of the lesser Gods in my pantheon, or...well, you get the point.

Ever confusing, I'm still searching for the answers since I walked away from Christianity 30 years ago. (And paganism 2 years ago)

As an archeologist, wouldn't you have to acknowledge that the Sumerian texts were written BEFORE the bible and from there try to establish that the one true God is Ea?

When moses was asked who had sent him He replied "I was sent by he who is called I AM." Ea is hebrew for I am

Just some observations, not trying to start a holy war.

As you say, yes the Sumerian texts WERE indeed written before the Bible. The Bible was written LONG after the sumerians were forgotten to have existed. It is true that the Bible derives alot of it's Old Testament content from Sumerian stories. Enoch himself was a Sumerian from the city of Ur, so it is not hard to say that the Sumerians or a population of them believed in God (much like how american has many religions in one nation), but you have to realize that the Old Testament was written by men inspired by God a.k.a, Moses who started the first half dozen books, and God told Moses of the time before the great flood down to Moses' current time.

There are MANY stories from the Bible that parellel Some of the Sumerian texts, such as the story about the great flood. I honestly believe that the great flood happened around 12,000 B.C. as some Sumerian texts alude to, which means that Sumeria was around for ALOT longer than what mainstream archeology says. Archeology is a science of facts. We have theories and then try to prove or disprove them by finding physical evidence, but we have an old saying "absence of evidence, is not evidence of absence". We've only discovered a number of cuneiform Sumerian texts and its still up to debate on how those are translated because Sumerian is a LONG dead language, it hasnt been spoken in around 6,000 years and there arent any "rosetta stone" texts to help us translate except for Babylonian transcripts which the Hebrew peoples came into contact with when Nebuchadnezar sacked Jersalem and destroyed the Temple of Solomon the first time. As per those babylonian transcripts theres no way to tell if the translations would be right because the word for "bathtub" in sumerian could mean the word for "toilet" in babylonian.

It is a very likely possiblity that the Old Testament in the Holy Bible is a watered down or condensed version of the Sumerian stories. I myself have often wondered and felt like something was missing everytime i read the Bible, because some passages just cut off in the middle of a story or parable. Whatever the case, were likely to never know the true answer. The Holy Roman Catholic Church saw fit to steal and either hide or destroy the oldest texts to suit their own purposes, thus impeding archeology's search for truth, answers and physical proof.

Originally posted by SumerianSoldier
You didn't comment on God acknowledging other gods, and we are off topic now, but...

Actually, yes I did, but if you need me to be more explicit, I will be.

The Bible acknowledges the existence of other gods. Most people are under the strange impression that "god" is some kind of magic creature with astronomical powers. Actually, "god" is a title. The hebrew word for "god" (El) merely means "mighty" or "powerful". The Bible calls the elected judges that ruled over the people of Israel before the age of kings "gods". Why? Because they wielded a great deal of power as judges.

That's why the Bible, in Revelation 4:11 as I pointed you, tells you that you should worship Jehovah, not because He is a "god", but because He is the creator of everything, including you, and you owe Him your existence. The angels themselves do it for this very reason. Hence, there is absolutely no problem for a Christian to acknowledge the existence of other gods.

Originally posted by SumerianSoldier
jeal·ous·y (...) en·vy

So you understand, I presume, that envy implies covetousness while jealousy does not. Are you still insisting that they are the same thing?

Originally posted by SumerianSoldier
As to whether I have read Revelations? Multiple times.

And yet the answer for your considerations was written there, and you missed it every single time you read.

Originally posted by SumerianSoldier
As for my observation of Ea, A binyan is a 3 letter word or element, Ea is two. And phonetically speaking, Ea is Ehyeh, as in Ehyeh asher Ehyeh. (I AM that I AM) Am I right? I don't know, I have only started dabbling in hebrew. But considering that the primary argunment AGAINST the Sumerian texts coming first is that the bible was passed along in verbal orations for many years until someone jotted them down.

A binyam is not a 3 letter word. You're confusing the binyam with the root, that is a 3 letter word, which gives the meaning. A binyam is the placement of the vowels in the root, that gives it is sintatic value.

As per if it is phonetically the same, I wouldn't be able to say. As I mentioned, I have no idea where you get this "Ea" from, what I know is that it isn't Ancient Hebrew.

The correct translation for Ehyeh is "I will be" or "I shall be". It is the imperfect tense first person singular of the verb to be. "I am" is perfect tense. There is no grammatically justified way to get the sentence "Ehyeh asher ehyeh" and find the translation "I am that I am."

reply to post by Leahn


Ea, is a Sumerian word i believe.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


Then the language is most likely Akkadian, not Hebrew or Aramaic.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

Actually, all Religions were started by man, to try to explain things they saw, heard, and experienced that they could not understand. Then came the time when the Church of Rome saw opportunity to not only control the masses, but to make a great profit, and to have power over even the King.
I have studied and researched the religions of mankind for many years now, and in my own opinion, most sprang from Ancient Sun Worship. And, before you laugh, go outside and look around, and tell me what object you can see with your eyes, and feel on your skin that is more deserving of our worship more than any other thing?

So you understand, I presume, that envy implies covetousness while jealousy does not. Are you still insisting that they are the same thing?

I do insist they are the same, they both imply that an individual is not complete enough as they are with what they have.

That's why the Bible, in Revelation 4:11 as I pointed you, tells you that you should worship Jehovah, not because He is a "god", but because He is the creator of everything, including you, and you owe Him your existence. The angels themselves do it for this very reason. Hence, there is absolutely no problem for a Christian to acknowledge the existence of other gods.

What you have pointed out to me is atypical quotation to suit a purpose, not the quotation in it's entirety. Revelations 4:10 says that "The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne saying..." 4:11

As read, THE 24 proclaim this TO GOD that he is worthy,IN THEIR OPINION. As I said in the beginning of my posts, "accepting that the bible is a historical document" and later post where I stated that Revelations was a dream. (A dream, generally accepted, written by John upon waking)

Revelation 14: 4 states that only 144,000 Jewish men who have not defiled themselves with women were redeemed. Which means, in some opinionis, the latter part of the revelations was written by a Jew.
The word "Dragon” never appears in the four gospels, not in Jesus' teachings, but it appears numerous times in the revelation and John never heard Jesus use the word dragon. Jesus never taught “the wrath of God” throughout his life. so it wasn't in the apostle John’s vocabulary. However, the writer of the revelation mentions “wrath of God” 6 times. John and the revelator are two different personalities. Old Testament authors and even John the Baptist mention the wrath of God. Also, John never mentioned hades or hell in his Gospel. Hell is an important concept in the revelations.

A binyam is not a 3 letter word. You're confusing the binyam with the root, that is a 3 letter word, which gives the meaning. A binyam is the placement of the vowels in the root, that gives it is sintatic value.

As per if it is phonetically the same, I wouldn't be able to say. As I mentioned, I have no idea where you get this "Ea" from, what I know is that it isn't Ancient Hebrew.

The correct translation for Ehyeh is "I will be" or "I shall be". It is the imperfect tense first person singular of the verb to be. "I am" is perfect tense. There is no grammatically justified way to get the sentence "Ehyeh asher ehyeh" and find the translation "I am that I am."

This has given me food for thought and definitely made me think that I need to study more upon Hebrew and its binyanims, and likely may be a bad assumption on my part or a bad leap of logic.

Enoch himself was a Sumerian from the city of Ur, so it is not hard to say that the Sumerians or a population of them believed in God

And lonewolf19792000: You raised an interesting question in my mind. Was the E-noch in the Sumerian texts the same E-noch as the son of Cain? Or was there and Enoch in the texts that existed prior to? I can't say as the bible says E-noch was born in the land of Nod. Ahhh... the mind boggles...

reply to post by SumerianSoldier


Hm, well from between the Sumerian texts to the Bible, the story between the 2 Enochs' pretty much matches up, not word for word but its a good chance it is. What archeology cannot say is how popular the name Enoch was. People of the times (like today) had favorite names they named their children. Like today how the names Mathew,Mark,John or Samuel are common names between the nations of the world. It's a conundrum. I WANT to say in my heart of hearts the 2 Enoch are the same because they share the same story even though the Bible's Enoch has a more condensed version than Sumerian text Enoch. Its a good bet that both texts refer to the same man since its hard to believe that 2 works or literature would be about the same story and not the same man. As the Brittish say "if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, its a duck!"

Anthropologist Zecharia Sitchin knows more about the Sumerian Enoch than i do, he's spent the last 30 years translating Sumerian texts, although i don't exactly agree with this stuff about (can't believe im saying this) anunnaki. I specialize in the ancient world so i have a bit of knowledge about all of the old civilzations but my emphasize on the ancient Romans which is my chosen specialty.

Originally posted by autowrench
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

Actually, all Religions were started by man, to try to explain things they saw, heard, and experienced that they could not understand. Then came the time when the Church of Rome saw opportunity to not only control the masses, but to make a great profit, and to have power over even the King.
I have studied and researched the religions of mankind for many years now, and in my own opinion, most sprang from Ancient Sun Worship. And, before you laugh, go outside and look around, and tell me what object you can see with your eyes, and feel on your skin that is more deserving of our worship more than any other thing?

You are right there are alot of ancient civilizations that practiced sun worship. The ancient egyptians worshiped Ra, or as Ahkenaten would say Aten Ra which is the sun deity. There have been ruins discovered that date back to nearly 15,000 years that have megalithic structures much like stonehenge that show the placements of the stars, moon,sun and planets. I admit sometimes i wonder if civilization has been around for far longer than even we can guess. My reason for wondering this is simple. If God made the adama and eve to be eternal, then before they fell they could have lived for eons, maybe even during the dinosaurs time before they fell into time that my theory may be around 40,000 years ago when the neanderthals were roaming around, and perhaps some of them, Cain and any others could have mated with them and thus began the cross breeding of human species. It could account for the cross breeding of homo sapiens sapiens with homo sapiens neaderthalensis (modern day man with neanderthal) which may be what the Bible aludes to when Cain goes ot the land of Nod to take a wife.

The problem with archeology is we can't prove that pre-history civilzations existed if we can't find ruins, and nature LOVES to conquer mankinds cities. It takes about 100 years once man stops tending structures for nature to reclaim lost real estate. Trees can tear a building apart in a matter of years and leave no trace that a building was ever there, which is one reason why the Pyramids in Egypt are still intact.

One thing the Sumerian texts seems to clarify to me as compared to The Bible, is that issue of the missing link. The texts state that they took a local hominid and genetically engineered them so they would have a more efficient slave force. (I'm paraphrasing, of course.) One that they could have mine gold for them.To me, this explains the jump from neanderthal to homo-sapien. It also seemed to explain something to me that I never understood in Genesis.

Genesis 2:11- it's talking about the location of eden and it says "in Havilah where there is Gold." That always seemed a strange statement to me because in Genesis you have God, Adam and Eve. (Well, either the first or second creation of them Because I believe that Genesis implies two creations of Adama and 3 creation of woman.) Anyway, if it's just them and they are ignorant of anything, having not yet eaten from the tree of knowledge, why would Gold be of any consequence to any of them? Also, it leads you to believe that there are already existing countries. (Havilah, Nod, etc..)

reply to post by SumerianSoldier


Well somewhere in the Bible, i believe its Genesis it talks about the first, second and third earth ages where God had created other earths and other people and then it shuts down and says nothing more after that. My theory is that these other peoples from other ages were the pre-existing incarnations of man. This is where science and creationism gets tricky. Scientific proof that there were other people (albeit quite animalish in nature) exists in the form of fossils that we have for hominids as far back as 4.4 million years.

This raises the question of evolution or creation. Did God create man out of a clump of dirt and breathe life into him? Or, did God create man by splitting the molecules and atoms inside dirt to create the building blocks of life that man would evolve from? Well take a look at the order of creation. Genesis says animals came before Man, so animals were first as is suggested by science. Most likely God did create man from evolutionary methods, everything we know is but a fraction of his knowledge. God knows all about science, molecules,atoms,gravity,energy, physiology,genetics etc. Ancient peoples had no concept of what God was telling them because in their day their technology and terms were what we call archaic today. Oh ancient peoples knew what blood was in the sense that if you lost too much you died, and how to cauterize severed limbs and arrow wounds, and they knew of disease but they had no concept of the WHY of it. This is why the Bible reads like a 4th graders knowledge of the universe, God could only use the terms and technologies of their day otherwise they wouldnt have the foggiest idea what he was talking about. It could also be why God walked with Man, to nurture him and teach him right from wrong (otherwise we would stay ignorant).

Anytime God told Man to either do something or to NOT do it had a reason. Eating this plant would poison you and kill you, or not eating these types of fruits would cause you to get scurvy, eating figs is good for your teeth and gums because it keeps bacteria down and acid that eats at the enamel of your teeth etc

Many people are afraid science will disprove God, when it in fact validates his existence. Nothing in this universe was created by its own will power, the Big Bang didnt happen on a fluke. Everything has a catalyst, thats catalyst is God.

>


New International Version (©1984)
You alone are the LORD. You made the heavens, even the highest heavens, and all their starry host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them. You give life to everything, and the multitudes of heaven worship you.
New Living Translation (©2007)
"You alone are the LORD. You made the skies and the heavens and all the stars. You made the earth and the seas and everything in them. You preserve them all, and the angels of heaven worship you.

English Standard Version (©2001)
“You are the LORD, you alone. You have made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them; and you preserve all of them; and the host of heaven worships you.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"You alone are the LORD. You have made the heavens, The heaven of heavens with all their host, The earth and all that is on it, The seas and all that is in them. You give life to all of them And the heavenly host bows down before You.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
You alone are the LORD. You made heaven, the highest heaven, with all its armies. You made the earth and everything on it, the seas and everything in them. You give life to them all, and the armies of heaven worship you.

King James Bible
Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.

American King James Version
You, even you, are LORD alone; you have made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and you preserve them all; and the host of heaven worships you.

American Standard Version
Thou art Jehovah, even thou alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth and all things that are thereon, the seas and all that is in them, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.

Bible in Basic English
You are the Lord, even you only; you have made heaven, the heaven of heavens with all their armies, the earth and all things in it, the seas and everything in them; and you keep them from destruction: and the armies of heaven are your worshippers.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Thou thyself, O Lord alone, thou hast made heaven, and the heaven of heavens, and all the host thereof: the earth and all things that are in it: the seas and all that are therein: and thou givest life to all these things, and the host of heaven adoreth thee.

Darby Bible Translation
Thou art the Same, thou alone, Jehovah, who hast made the heaven of heavens, and all their host, the earth and all that is therein, the seas and all that is therein. And thou quickenest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.

English Revised Version
Thou art the LORD, even thou alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth and all things that are thereon, the seas and all that is in them, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.

Webster's Bible Translation
Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are in it, the seas, and all that is in them, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshipeth thee.

World English Bible
You are Yahweh, even you alone. You have made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their army, the earth and all things that are on it, the seas and all that is in them, and you preserve them all. The army of heaven worships you.

Young's Literal Translation
Thou art He, O Jehovah, Thyself -- Thou hast made the heavens, the heavens of the heavens, and all their host, the earth and all that are on it, the seas and all that are in them, and Thou art keeping all of them alive, and the host of the heavens to Thee are bowing themselves.


Barnes' Notes on the Bible
The host of heaven worshippeth thee - i. e the angels. See 1 Kings 22:19; Psalm 103:21.


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Clarke's Commentary on the Bible
Thou preservest them all - ואתה מחיה את כלם vettah mechaiyeh eth cullam, and thou givest life to them all: and the host of the heavens, לך משתחוים lecha mishtachavim, prostrate themselves unto thee. How near is this to the opinion of Kepler, that all the heavenly host are instinct with life, and navigate the great expanse on pinions adjusted to their situation in their respective orbits! But to preserve in life, or in being, is a very good meaning in the original, which does not necessarily imply vitality. We say a tree is alive when flourishing, a plant is dead when it withers, etc.


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Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
Thou, even thou art Lord alone,.... Whose name alone is Jehovah, the one only true and living God:

thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host; the airy and starry heavens, and the sun, moon, and stars in them, and the third heaven, the seat of God, angels, and saints:

the earth, and all things that are therein; men, beasts, trees, metals, minerals, &c.

the seas, and all that is therein; fishes, sea plants, &c. see Acts 4:24,

and thou preservest them all; they consist in thee, and are upheld in their being by thee, Hebrews 1:3

and the host of heaven worshipped thee; not the sun, moon, and stars, only in their way, Psalm 148:2 but the angels chiefly, Hebrews 1:6.


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Keil and Delitzsch Biblical Commentary on the Old Testament
In Nehemiah 9:6 this praising of God begins with the acknowledgment that Jahve, the Creator of heaven and earth, chose Abram and made a covenant with him to give the land of Canaan to his seed, and had performed this word (Nehemiah 9:6-8). These verses form the theme of that blessing the name of His glory, to which the Levites exhorted. This theme is then elucidated by facts from Israel's history, in four strophes. a. When God saw the affliction of His people in Egypt, He delivered them by great signs and wonders from the power of Pharaoh, gave them laws and judgments on Sinai, miraculously provided them with food and water in the wilderness, and commanded them to take possession of the promised land (Nehemiah 9:9-15). b. Although their fathers rebelled against Him, even in the wilderness, God did not withdraw His mercy from them, but sustained them forty years, so that they lacked nothing; and subdued kings before them, so that they were able to conquer and possess the land (Nehemiah 9:16-25). c. After they were settled in the land they rebelled again, and God delivered them into the hand of their oppressors; but as often as they cried unto Him, He helped them again, till at length, because of their continued opposition, He gave them into the power of the people of the lands, yet of His great mercy did not wholly cast them off (Nehemiah 9:26-31). d. May He now too look upon the affliction of His people, as the God that keepeth covenant and mercy, although they have deserved by their sins the troubles they are suffering (Nehemiah 9:32-37).

Nehemiah 9:6

"Thou art Jahve alone; Thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, and all their host, the earth and all that is thereon, the sea and all therein; and Thou givest life to them all, and the host of heaven worshippeth Thee. Nehemiah 9:7 Thou art Jahve, the God who didst choose Abram, and broughtest him forth out of Ur of the Chaldees, and gavest him the name of Abraham: Nehemiah 9:8 And foundest his heart faithful before Thee, and madest a covenant with him to give the land of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Jebusites, and the Girga#es, to give to his seed, and hast performed Thy word; for Thou art righteous." Jahve alone is God, the Creator of heaven and earth, and of all creatures in heaven and on earth. In order duly to exalt the almightiness of God, the notion of heaven is enhanced by the addition "heaven of heavens," as in Deuteronomy 10:14; 1 Kings 8:27; and that of earth by the addition "the sea and all therein;" comp. Psalm 146:6. כּל־צבאם, Genesis 2:1, here refers only to heaven. מחיּה, to cause to live equals to give and preserve life. כּלּם relates to all creatures in heaven and earth. The host of heaven who worshipped God are the angels, as in Psalm 148:2; Psalm 103:21. This only God chose Abram; comp. Genesis 12:1 with Genesis 11:31 and Genesis 15:7; Genesis 17:5, where God bestowed upon the patriarch Abram the name of Abraham. The words, "Thou foundest his heart faithful," refer to בּיהוה האמין there mentioned. The making of a covenant alludes to Genesis 17:5.; the enumeration of six Canaanitish nations to Deuteronomy 7:1; Exodus 3:8; comp. with Genesis 15:20. This His word God performed (fulfilled), for He is righteous. God is called צדּיק, inasmuch as with Him word and deed correspond with each other; comp. Deuteronomy 32:4.






.

Everything has a catalyst, thats catalyst is God.

YOU, my friend, are a devout Christian in an archeologists clothing!

This is like saying which came first, the chicken or the egg. Who created God? Who created the universe? God couldn't exist unless he had the universe to exist within, the universe couldn't exist unless God created it.

Unless, God IS the universe and all nature based religions are suddenly justified.

This is why the Bible reads like a 4th graders knowledge of the universe, God could only use the terms and technologies of their day otherwise they wouldnt have the foggiest idea what he was talking about.

New International Version (©1984)
You alone are the LORD. You made the heavens, even the highest heavens, and all their starry host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them. You give life to everything, and the multitudes of heaven worship you.

Really? He's God. He's all powerful, all knowing, He created all these vast and wonderful things, and yet, he can't endow man with knowledge and comprehension whilst creating him? This is a bit contradictory and, either says that A.) God is NOT all powerful and some things are beyond his capability. or B.) He has created man for his own personal amusement to see what he will do while demanding that we worship him without question and hanging an eternal punishment overhead for not worshipping him for good measure.

This takes me back to the first commandment: Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me 4: Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath or that is in the water under the earth: 5:Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them: For I am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me.

There are alot of problems here. The one that I pointed out in a previous post. (Jealousy) The fact that Christians have made a religious icon out of Christ (A graven image) after God expressly forbids it. And then, states that he will punish the children for the father's sins for several generations. A truly loving God would never punish multiple generations for something the father did. (Do you have children? grandchildren? I do, and even though my kids do things that I don't approve of, I would NEVER punish my grandchildren for their parents trangressions. Now who's more loving and benevolent?)

This leads me to looking at the God of the OT and the God of the NT. Wouldn't you say there is a difference in personality of the God described in these two testaments? OT God is wrathful and vengeful, NT God is more forgiving. And the commandment: Thou Shalt Not Kill - This is OT, but it's okay for God or his chosen people to kill multitudes for not following his word or worshipping him? (It doesn't say Thou Shalt Not Kill, except....) This is hypocritical, self-serving, and throws free will out the window. Even the concept of dangling the punishment of hell is not a fair argument for free will. Nobody in their right mind would want to experience hell, but you either worship God or he punishes you and your children's children, kills you, or you go to hell. If anything, this is coercion. It is observations like this that make it hard for me to accept the status quo on God, let alone as my God. In essence, it comes down to "He who wins the war, writes the history." And this is what the bible is, in my opinion.since biblical timelines just don't add up, especially concerning when it comes to Satan. The accepted view in Christianity tends to run that:
1.) The devil was cast down in Genesis and appears in the garden to tempt Eve.
and, on top of that
2.) He is supposed to have come to earth and married in Genesis 6:4 in his bid to corrupt the seed of man.(I have a different view of this passage as well.)
3.) At the time of Job he is said to have had access to both Heaven and earth.
4.) By the time of Isaiah 14 he is thrown out of Heaven onto earth.
5.) In Zechariah 3 he is in Heaven again.
6.) He is on earth in Matthew 4. and is "cast out" at the time of Jesus' death, according to the popular view of "the prince of this world" being "cast out" at that time.
7.) There is a prophecy of the devil being 'cast out' in Rev.12.
8.) The devil is "chained" in Rev. 20, but he and his angels were chained in Genesis, according to the common view of Jude verse 6. If he was bound with 'eternal chains' then, how is he chained up again in Rev. 20?

Maybe the mind gets in the way of the heart, but my thought is that a perfect God shouldn't have had these failures. If God is without flaw, then he CREATED Satan to fall, his first(?) attempt at creating man was DESIGNED to fail and ended with him destroying all but a few and starting over with an existing model. And he DESIGNED THAT to fail, `cause we are MESSED UP!

reply to post by SumerianSoldier


No one created God, he has always existed. As i said science corroborates his existence. Science says that creation happened exactly as God told Moses it happened in Genesis: First the universe and stars were born, then came the earth, night and day (sun flared into life), then came water, then atmosphere and then finally life, animals with man coming last. Thats exactly how science says it happened as well. Now tell me, If God didnt exist, who told all this to Moses whom had NO idea what science was, nor what had happened or how it was started? Some people would say aliens, because its easier for them to accept extraterrestrials than it is to accept that there is a being in the universe who is the master of the universe, a being who put into place all the laws of physics and reality that currently exist. Its not hard for me to accept that God exists because of the things i know, have experienced, researched. There comes a point in a persons life when you no longer have to believe because you KNOW.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


You started this thread by applying an imperfect methodology and by using twisted 'facts' adapted to your pre-determined answer.

And now you turn this into a tradition by making comment s like......


Quote: ["As i said science corroborates his existence."]

Not standard science. Possibly this special kind of 'science' theists have cooked up, which to a high degree fills out the gaps with semantic acrobatics or rhetocric.

Quote: ["Science says that creation happened exactly as God told Moses it happened in Genesis: First the universe and stars were born, then came the earth, night and day (sun flared into life), then came water, then atmosphere and then finally life, animals with man coming last."]

YOUR 'science' says that.

Quote: ["Thats exactly how science says it happened as well."]

YOUR 'science'.

Quote: [" Now tell me, If God didnt exist, who told all this to Moses whom had NO idea what science was, nor what had happened or how it was started?"]

Obviously Moses related to the same kind of 'science' as you do.

Quote: ["Some people would say aliens, because its easier for them to accept extraterrestrials than it is to accept that there is a being in the universe who is the master of the universe, a being who put into place all the laws of physics and reality that currently exist."9

This is a postulate concerning your 'god'. With some circle-argumentation included.

Quote: ["Its not hard for me to accept that God exists because of the things i know, have experienced, researched."]

Everyone is entitled to a private, subjective faith. If you want to claim objectivity, you have to switch to objective procedure instead of your kind of 'science'.

Quote: ["There comes a point in a persons life when you no longer have to believe because you KNOW."]

The world is filled with people, who just 'know' the way you do. Most of them disagree with each other.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

No one created God, he has always existed. As i said science corroborates his existence. Science says that creation happened exactly as God told Moses it happened in Genesis: First the universe and stars were born, then came the earth, night and day (sun flared into life), then came water, then atmosphere and then finally life, animals with man coming last. Thats exactly how science says it happened as well. Now tell me, If God didnt exist, who told all this to Moses whom had NO idea what science was, nor what had happened or how it was started? Some people would say aliens, because its easier for them to accept extraterrestrials than it is to accept that there is a being in the universe who is the master of the universe, a being who put into place all the laws of physics and reality that currently exist. Its not hard for me to accept that God exists because of the things i know, have experienced, researched. There comes a point in a persons life when you no longer have to believe because you KNOW.

This is like me taking an infant child and bringing it up telling it that I am God and I created everything and that everyone else around them are evil people who refuse to acknowledge all the things I have done for them. .Kill them all and take this down... First, I created light...

reply to post by bogomil


You can attack me all you want. I give you proof, and you are still too blind to see. I gave you questions to ask yourself and you attack my methods and reasoning. This is not the act of a rational person, but a person lashing out. In order to TEACH people, you get them to start asking questions of their own. The question i postulated was HOW did Moses know the universe and world were formed the same way that science today now states? The answer i gave, was God told him. Now debate wether or not it was God or as ancient astronaught theorists think "a man from a UFO" will rage on until the final moment comes and one is proven right and the other proven wrong. I believe is was God, many more do and just as many believe it was little green men from planet marshmellow.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

Remember, way back to the beginning. We were all one people with one faith,

Actually, no I don't. It happened like this:

He was in the woods gathering firewood, the one chosen to be the new Rememberer of the Tribal Lore. Then they of the True Faith came. With their swords they slew the elders, the teachers of the Tribal Lore. With their fire they burned the hut with the notched memory stick. The one who was to be the Rememberer was enslaved and forced to renounce all, but the "one True god" of the "True Faith".

So no, none of what you wrote rings a bell at all.

Think on that. As an Archeologist, it is my life mission to prove this theory.

Oh, may the gods help us! A researcher who already has all the answers! Your grasp of history and mythology are at about a 6th grade level.

I think all religions sprang from man, that's just my opinion though......

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

We've only discovered a number of cuneiform Sumerian texts and its still up to debate on how those are translated because Sumerian is a LONG dead language,

So all these Sumerian texts translated into English I have lying about my room are frauds? Perpetrated by some of the most renowned archeologists and linguists in the world?

What do you mean that you are an archeologist? Is that like "Junior Archeologist for Jesus, 5th street chapter"?

reply to post by autowrench

go outside and look around, and tell me what object you can see with your eyes, and feel on your skin that is more deserving of our worship more than any other thing?

The blue dome of Sky. The Sun is obviously subservient for it is under the Sky dome. Sure modern science tries to dupe us away from the True Blue, by saying the Sun is millions of miles above the Sky, but personal eye sight is of greater religious value than "science".