Trying again to learn about Masons and secret clubs

Originally posted by LadyV
I have learned a lot here.......but I don't really understand in our modern time, why it's an all male club, but I don't really care either...I just find it puzzling.

Why? You're a Wiccan -- have you ever heard of Dianic Wicca? It's all women, after all... does that make it bad?

How about the National Organisation of Women?

How about the "W" channel for women? (I don't know if you have that down in the states... it's up here in Canada?)

How about sororities on college campuses?

Is it OK to have women-only societies, but not men-only societies?

phantompatriot....
from your keystrokes it seems your fairly young...I hope you do well and find what you are looking for.

Originally posted by RANT
Actually, it was strictly in the anatomical sense I used the word "penis" as that is the defining factor it seems that forbids LadyV from joining anything but an offshoot of the fraternal order of Freemasonry.

NO, NOT AN OFFSHOOT! Sorry. But it's not. It's a different Grand Lodge! It's the same as any other Grand Lodge! Jeez!

Originally posted by AlexKennedy

Originally posted by LadyV
I have learned a lot here.......but I don't really understand in our modern time, why it's an all male club, but I don't really care either...I just find it puzzling.

Why? You're a Wiccan -- have you ever heard of Dianic Wicca? It's all women, after all... does that make it bad?

How about the National Organisation of Women?

How about the "W" channel for women? (I don't know if you have that down in the states... it's up here in Canada?)

How about sororities on college campuses?

Is it OK to have women-only societies, but not men-only societies?

Oh yes...I have heard of them, but I would never join them...not into the club thing at all, and I also don't feel in the year 2004 there are needs to have male female segregation., I never once said it was ok for woman and not ok for men...where did that come from? Not I ...just my not so humble opinion...

As a matter of fact I am fairly young.I am also terrible at typing. But yes I am fairly young i am only 20.

Originally posted by AlexKennedy

Originally posted by Jamuhn
So, I was curious about the inclusion Thoth's supposed works in Masonry, because it seems that the pyramid thing comes from somewhere...

What pyramid thing? Sorry, Jamuhn, but can you blame me for being irritated when you repeatedly refer to things you "know" about Freemasonry that aren't actually, you know, true?

I agree with this!!!
Another reason would be people dislike what they don't know, almost as jealousy. They feel they are excluded and react negatively.

I mean, can you blame people? Plus, there's a difference between fearing something and staying away from it and being excluded by not meeting certain expectations.

So, wait, are you saying there's something wrong with the requirements of being a Freemason, namely a belief in a supreme being and upright morals? So no society has a right to determine who can and cannot become a member?

Well, it seems Alex Kennedy that I was right about Hermes Trismegistus.

the pyramid appears in the ritual as a representation of the great builders of the past

www.masonicinfo.com...

Christ Alex Kennedy, I might not be a Mason, but I know how to read. What is wrong with you man, all of a sudden you are trolling this board and flaming everyone who isn't a Mason.

And to your second statement, I was talking in a general sense. And even if I was, what of it? I am no more of an authority on what is "right" than you are. *Mockingly*So, wait, I don't have a right to question the requirements of masonry.

And I think what RANT was talking about was the fact that Masonry has to set up a seperate organization from its own for women and then call it equal, you know, like segregation.

Originally posted by LadyV
I also don't feel in the year 2004 there are needs to have male female segregation.

Alright, well, I respectfully disagree. And since I presume you would never use your rightful powers as a human being to deny me the right to attend my all-male Lodge meetings, I have no problem with you holding this belief. But please don't expect me to agree -- I think time for male bonding (or female bonding) is a good thing.

[edit on 18-8-2004 by AlexKennedy]

Originally posted by AlexKennedy

Originally posted by LadyV
I also don't feel in the year 2004 there are needs to have male female segregation.

-- I think time for male bonding (or female bonding) is a good thing.

[edit on 18-8-2004 by AlexKennedy]

I am for anyone doing what they want as long as it harms none...I do respectfully disagree however, I think it's time for human kind to bond together un segregated.

Originally posted by Jamuhn
Well, it seems Alex Kennedy that I was right about Hermes Trismegistus.

the pyramid appears in the ritual as a representation of the great builders of the past

www.masonicinfo.com...

As I said before, I've never encountered any reference to a pyramid anywhere in any ritual I've encountered. Certainly not in Craft Lodge. And I stand by that. I don't know what Ed King is talking about there... it's weird.

What is wrong with you man, all of a sudden you are trolling this board and flaming everyone who isn't a Mason.

If that's how you feel, fine. But I'm not "flaming" anyone or trolling, since I haven't once told any lies about anyone, or even used offensive language, for goodness sake.

And to your second statement, I was talking in a general sense. And even if I was, what of it? I am no more of an authority on what is "right" than you are. *Mockingly*So, wait, I don't have a right to question the requirements of masonry.

Oh, please. We could have this argument forever. Yes, you have the right to question the requirements, and I have the right to vigourously defend them. I wasn't censoring you, I was just illustrating that I think your ideas are incorrect.

And I think what RANT was talking about was the fact that Masonry has to set up a seperate organization from its own for women and then call it equal, you know, like segregation.

The difference being that segregation provided facilities which were not, in fact, equal; and also that segregation was controlled by one of the segregated groups. This is untrue of co-Masonry and Lady's Masonry -- they are both 100% autonomous, and control themselves. Likewise, it's not like there is a crowding of Lodges or Freemasons, so that some Lodges get an unfair access to "Masonic resources" that others do not. Actually, the differences between "Regular" Masonry, Co-Masonry, and Lady's Masonry are nothing at all like American Segregationalism.

I didn't say American segregationalism....I said segregation, seperate but equal. In fact, in of your above posts, you said segregation as well. EDIT: Never mind, it's not there anymore.

As far as segregation and the rest of the qualifiers of masonry, we will have to agree to disagree. I would let women and non-believers of God in my secret club, it would foster more diversity of opinion IMO. Because we are all after all, just making assumptions about philosophy and religion and spirituality.

But, I wish you or another Mason would take my comments seriously and let me know if there is any more specific mention of Egyptian mysticism in the teachings.

[edit on 18-8-2004 by Jamuhn]

Originally posted by AlexKennedy

As I said before, I've never encountered any reference to a pyramid anywhere in any ritual I've encountered. Certainly not in Craft Lodge. And I stand by that. I don't know what Ed King is talking about there... it's weird.

I 2nd that, no where in the Craft Lodge are pyramids of any sort mentioned.

Originally posted by Jamuhn
But, I wish you or another Mason would take my comments seriously and let me know if there is any more specific mention of Egyptian mysticism in the teachings.

Boy oh boy, I'd be yelling this if we were face-to-face...

I have told you several times that no, there is no specific mention of Egyptian mysticism in the first three degrees. There is one brief mention of Egypt in one of the lectures... but the gist of the explanation is that Masonry is heiroglyphic, i.e. symbolic, and meant to be interpreted. There is NO FURTHER MENTION of Egypt or Egyptian mysticism.

Now, I'm not saying that the study of the Ancient Egyptian religions is not a good direction of study for the Mason -- on the contrary, I think it is an excellent thing to study. But the ritual does not mention it.

Originally posted by LadyV
I do respectfully disagree however, I think it's time for human kind to bond together un segregated.

Just to be clear, though, I don't believe in segregating men from women generally. I just mean that I appreciate the fact that I do have the freedom to belong to a society which has only male members, and that men and women have the freedom to join Co-Masonry, which has both, and that women have the freedom to join Lady's Masonry.

If it were up to me, Lady's Masonry would be far more widespread, and it would be much easier for women to become Masons. I look forward to the day when it will be. But it's not up to me... it is up to the Ladies in Lady's Masonry.

Originally posted by Jamuhn
I didn't say American segregationalism....I said segregation, seperate but equal. In fact, in of your above posts, you said segregation as well. EDIT: Never mind, it's not there anymore.

Umm... I haven't edited any of my posts to remove anything, so if it's not there now, it never was.

I would let women and non-believers of God in my secret club, it would foster more diversity of opinion IMO.

Several problems here:

i) First, we're not talking about a "secret club." Masonry is not a social club nor is it a civic club. It is a fraternity, bound by what is sometimes referred to as a "mystic tie." Its teachings are sacremental inasmuch as they speak to man's relationship with God (although they are not religious, as they do not inculcate any specific religious dogma). What would be the point of atheists joining such an organisation? Do many atheists want to understand their relationship with God better?

ii) Second, Masonry isn't yours. Nor is it mine. Nor is it even the Grand Master's. Masonry is a set of traditions, rituals, rules, etc. If you change those rituals and traditions in a violent way, then it's not Masonry anymore. If you're so eager to have a "secret club" that allows in atheists, why don't you make one? For goodness sake, it's not very hard, and I promise you I won't make fun.

Because we are all after all, just making assumptions about philosophy and religion and spirituality.

Sorry, no. I mean no offense to atheists, and I certainly don't deny them the right to believe (or disbelieve) as they wish, but as far as I'm concerned, I know God exists. Now, when we talk about religious doctrines, I agree, we are maybe not making assumptions, but certainly none, or few of us have perfect knowledge.

Has anyone else ever noticed that once a thread reaches about 3 pages, it usually goes off topic? Reading back over it, I just thought it was funny...everything from Freemasonry to sexism to Trotskyism to Egyptology to porn has been argued over. If someone were to introduce theories about evolution and the effects of artificial turf on ground balls to centerfield, I'd say we'd just about covered it all.

Quickly back to the Egyptian stuff:

The only direct reference made to Thoth in regular Freemasonry that I'm aware of is in the 31� ritual, S.J.
This degree is based on the 124th Chapter of the ancient Egyptians' Papyrus of Ani, and Thoth is one of the characters in the degree ceremony.

Concerning Jahmun's question, the relation to Thoth to Hermes and/or Trismegistus still confuses historians. It is possible that these names/titles alluded to an actual historical person who was later deified in the Greco-Egyptian cults, but it is also possible that his entire existence is mythological. I tend to believe that Thoth-Hermes was probably a real person, as most myths begin with at least a grain of truth.

Some Masonic writers and scholars go to great lengths telling us about the Egyptian Mysteries (Pike, Mackey, Hall, Waite, and Buck fall into this category), but, perhaps strangely, there is very little outright "Egyptianism" in the actual rituals of the fraternity. Excepting Pike's version of the 31�, there is practically none at all, unless one includes the Egyptian Rite of Memphis and Oriental Rite of Mitzraim, both of which have been tabled by regular Masonry.

Yet Pike spends about 300 pages total in Morals and Dogma elaborating on the Egyptian Mysteries, and comparing them to the rites of Solomonic Masonry, and Mackey does basically the same in his Masonic Encyclopedia. I believe many of their analogies or more or less correct, but it would also be easy for the non-Mason who reads these materials to draw false conclusions from them.

Fiat Lvx.





[edit on 18-8-2004 by Masonic Light]

Originally posted by Masonic Light
Has anyone else ever noticed that once a thread reaches about 3 pages, it usually goes off topic?

LOL.....yeah pretty typical, someone mentions something and someone else grabs it and so on and so on and so on ............

Originally posted by Masonic Light
unless one includes the Egyptian Rite of Memphis and Oriental Rite of Mitzraim, both of which have been tabled by regular Masonry.

... sadly. I hate to admit it, but I'm a degree junkie, and the thought of 99 scrumptious degrees of esoterica -- how exciting!

Originally posted by AlexKennedy

Originally posted by Jamuhn
But, I wish you or another Mason would take my comments seriously and let me know if there is any more specific mention of Egyptian mysticism in the teachings.

Boy oh boy, I'd be yelling this if we were face-to-face...

I have told you several times that no, there is no specific mention of Egyptian mysticism in the first three degrees. There is one brief mention of Egypt in one of the lectures... but the gist of the explanation is that Masonry is heiroglyphic, i.e. symbolic, and meant to be interpreted. There is NO FURTHER MENTION of Egypt or Egyptian mysticism.

Now, I'm not saying that the study of the Ancient Egyptian religions is not a good direction of study for the Mason -- on the contrary, I think it is an excellent thing to study. But the ritual does not mention it.

Wow, yelling?, do all masons get irritated and upset that easily?*just poking fun.

Thats actually though what I was getting at. I wasn't differentiating between the teachings of Masonry and those supplemental to it. IMO, id think it would be the same, but I wasn't thinking in terms of required teaching.

But anyway, I guess it would be easier ( ) for everyone to believe the same thing as far as God is concerned. I still think it would foster more thoughtful discussion, but hey, thats not your thing.

If you "know" God exists, then in your mind its not an assumption, in mine it is, just another point of difference. And when I say "my," I am referring to the club I would belong to....petty semantics. It helps people communicate better right?

EDIT: Well, it seems Masonic Light answered my question once again. Thanks Masonic Light, thats what I was curious about. I've already printed out that list of works you pointed out earlier and I now have some more to add to it.

[edit on 18-8-2004 by Jamuhn]

As ML and AK have both stated there are really no connections in our degrees to Egypt or ancient Kemet. Yet many Masons such as myself have long felt there is a connection of some sort to the mystery systems of Kemet, and have gone through great lenghts to prove them. Yet these are our own independant theories, and are not supported by the order. Additionally even if a connection the egyptian mysteries (or any other ancient esoteric mystery system for that matter) is proven, there still remains no mention of them in our degrees, and thus wouldn't really matter as far as the craft and our practices are concerned.

Originally posted by Khonsu
As ML and AK have both stated there are really no connections in our degrees to Egypt or ancient Kemet. Yet many Masons such as myself have long felt there is a connection of some sort to the mystery systems of Kemet, and have gone through great lenghts to prove them.

Khonsu, if you're saying there is some kind of connection between Egyptian mystery teaching and Freemasonry (even if it is a connection of common ancestry rather than descent, or perhaps similar sources in the collective unconscious), then I, for one, agree with you (just my opinion, mind).