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Trying again to learn about Masons and secret clubs

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posted on Aug, 18 2004 @ 06:30 PM
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AlexKennedy, what degree are you at?




posted on Aug, 18 2004 @ 06:44 PM
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Originally posted by stoneskull
AlexKennedy, what degree are you at?


Stoneskull, to quote Martin Prince from the Simpsons, "Your very question is faulty!"

Just to make it clear: Freemasonry has three degrees. That's it. There are several organisations called "Appendant Bodies" which only Master Masons can join, and which provide other degrees -- but they are not a part of Regular Masonry, have no authority within Regular Masonry, and are not "higher," just, perhaps, "deeper."

That being said, in the interest of disclosure, I will indicate the degrees I have taken within various appendant bodies:

In Craft Lodge, I am a Master Mason.

In the Scottish Rite Valley, I am a Master of the Royal Secret, or "32nd degree."

In the RAM Chapter, I am a Royal Arch Mason, or "VII degree"

Hopefully, this Winter, I will join the SRIA, at which time I will be a Zelator, "I degre."

As well, I may join the Masonic Knights Templar... if I finish all thos degrees, I will be a Masonic KT, or "XIV degree" or "XI degree" depending on whether you view the Cryptic Council as a standard part of the York Rite Bodies or a side body.

Confused? That's because you've listened to people who have told you (wrongly) that there are 33 degrees in Freemasonry.



posted on Aug, 18 2004 @ 06:52 PM
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I appreciate your honesty. Thanks.



posted on Aug, 18 2004 @ 07:01 PM
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Originally posted by stoneskull
I appreciate your honesty. Thanks.


And I appreciate your not i) claiming I'm not really in posession of the degrees I say I have, or ii) claiming that I'm actually subservient to Satanists of a "higher degree," which are some experiences I've had in the past. I can tell you are man of sensibility and good taste


[edit on 18-8-2004 by AlexKennedy]



posted on Aug, 18 2004 @ 07:22 PM
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To be honest, I actually find it refreshing being on a conspiracy-related forum, with real-live freemasons. Usually, and you're right, masons get all sorts of abuse and ignorance thrown at them. It's as bad as the many forms of racism that abound, against jews and arabs, or "uncivilised tribes", etc.

I think the main part of that hostility is the secretiveness. That it's exclusive and is not often talked about in the mainstream. People tend to fear the unknown, and allow their prejudice to be influenced by the negative force.

To believe things like masonry is satanic is very ignorant of what masonry is. The lessons taught go back all the way to Egypt, to Babylon and Sumer. It is old knowledge, passed down through the Mystery Schools, the Astronomers and the Mathemeticians.

I've done a fair bit of "correspondence" learning of masonry. I find the fact that King James I redesigned the structure into what is still used today (400 years later) quite astounding. I'd probably join up if I believed in God, but I don't. (And that's a debate that belongs in another thread).



posted on Aug, 18 2004 @ 07:26 PM
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Yea, a think another reason Masonry is so debated is because of the religious/spiritual implications.

But anyway, I remember seeing a picture where all the degrees were listed and it did seem that there were 33 degrees at one point. And I thought I remembered Masons saying it was real or something. The picture also included levels of all the varying organizations of Masonry and how they connected with each other. Does anyone know the picture I'm talking about?



posted on Aug, 18 2004 @ 07:41 PM
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Originally posted by stoneskull
I've done a fair bit of "correspondence" learning of masonry. I find the fact that King James I redesigned the structure into what is still used today (400 years later) quite astounding. I'd probably join up if I believed in God, but I don't. (And that's a debate that belongs in another thread).


I'm not trying to be nitpicky here (once again, lol) but modern Freemasonry has only a very little to do with King James, although it is often claimed otherwise, even by Masons.

By the time James IV of Scotland took the throne in London and became James I of England, the system of feudalism was rapidly petering out, and the guilds were practically defunct. Architecture was now being taught in the universities, and with its trade secrets being publicized, organized Freemasonry was in decline.

Several operative Lodges around the London area still existed, and petitioned the monarch for a Charter; he granted the Charter, and these Lodges reorganized themselves under the trade name "The Masons of Company of London". This is the extent of the influence of King James in Masonic history, and the Masons Company still consisted entirely of professional stonemasons.

In the latter half of the 17th century are the first records indicating that non-stonemasons were admitted to the Company, the most important being Elias Ashmole, the celebrated Oxford intellectual.

The Company had re-chartered the subordinate Lodges, and then went extinct itself. It was replaced in 1717 when 4 of the Lodges that had been chartered by the Company held a joint meeting on St. John the Baptist's Day, and voted to create the Grand Lodge of England. By this time, we believe that all of the delegates were non-professionals, the professional stonemasons having abandoned competition with the feudal serf masons, and organizing under capitalist labor.

Even at this point, the transition to modern Freemasonry was not complete; it was a not until a decade later that the modern Master Mason degree was introduced into the Masonic system.

Fiat Lvx.



posted on Aug, 18 2004 @ 07:42 PM
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ah i could fill 10 thread pages with pics like that.

here's one:



As you can see, it is the Scottish rite that goes to 33. It is a common path for the Blue Lodge graduate, and so is the most well known.



posted on Aug, 18 2004 @ 08:00 PM
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Originally posted by Jamuhn
But anyway, I remember seeing a picture where all the degrees were listed and it did seem that there were 33 degrees at one point. And I thought I remembered Masons saying it was real or something. The picture also included levels of all the varying organizations of Masonry and how they connected with each other. Does anyone know the picture I'm talking about?


There are several such representations, all of them similar.

The number of degrees depends upon the Rite. Most historians believe that the earliest Masonic Rite is the York Rite, which originally consisted of two degrees (Apprentice and Journeyman). This Rite can at least be traced to the 13th century, and possibly before the 9th century. The Rite was, at the time, one for practicing stonemasons only.

In the early 18th century, a Third Degree was added, which was followed by a schism that Masonic historians still disagree on. What appears to have happened is that the opposing factions had different versions of the Third Degree, and refused to deny their own rituals at the expense of accepting their opponents'. This led to a complete break in the fraternity, with one faction calling themselves "Antients" and the other faction "Moderns".

Eventually, the schism was healed, and the two factions in England merged into the current United Grand Lodge of England. Similar mergers occured here in the States.

The agreement reached was that the Moderns' version of the Third Degree would be recognized as official, while the extra ceremonies found in the Antients' version would be made into a new degree, called the Royal Arch, which could be conferred on Master Masons.

At the same time, Orders of Chivalry, popluar in France, became widespread in the UK, and several of these were also adopted into the York Rite.

Today, the York Rite is a complete system of Masonry with 9 degrees and three orders of chivalry, conferred in 4 separate bodies: the Lodge of Master Masons, the Chapter of Royal Arch Masons, the Council of Royal and Select Master Masons, and the Commandery (or Preceptory) of Knights Templar.

Each of these organizations are governed by a "Grand" representative body of the same name, but the Grand Lodge exercises ultimate authority.

The Scottish Rite is a distinct rite of Masonry, and was formed in Charleston, South Carolina in 1801 by members of the extinct French Rite of Perfection. This Rite consists of 33 degrees, beginning with Apprentice.

After the Antients and Moderns of the York Rite merged, a Concordant was reached with the Supreme Council of the 33 of the Scottish Rite. The Scottish Rite agreed to recognize the first three degrees of the York Rite, as well as agreeing it would begin its system with its own 4. Since the founders of the Scottish Rite were all also York Rite Masons, they were under obligation to submit to the rules and regulations of their various York Grand Lodges, which has allowed both Rites to prosper and exist in fraternal relations with each other. Indeed, most active Masons in the US today belong to and support both Rites.

Fiat Lvx.

[edit on 18-8-2004 by Masonic Light]



posted on Aug, 18 2004 @ 08:10 PM
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You know, it seems that Masonry has its roots in the ancient Egyptian civilization with the stone-building and pyramids and quest for truth.

I remember the Egyptian God Thoth, the god of wisdom and earthly messenger of the Gods is purported to have designed the Great Pyramids.

I wonder how prevalent Thoth is in Masonry or even Egyptian mysticism in general?

Another note, Hermes is considered the Greek equivalent of Thoth, which is one reason why Thoth's city of worship is called Hermopolis (I think, I'm kind of fuzzy on that). But anyway, I know that the claimed works of Hermes are included somewhat in Masonic teaching. Just wondering if you take this back to Thoth. I have always been interested in this man/god/man-god.



posted on Aug, 18 2004 @ 08:29 PM
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I have been a mason for some time its in my blood as is politics. much of my family served as mayor.If you want to learn about masonry pick up a masonic bible.



posted on Aug, 18 2004 @ 08:33 PM
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Originally posted by Jamuhn
I wonder how prevalent Thoth is in Masonry or even Egyptian mysticism in general?


No mention of Thoth whatsoever in any degree I've ever been a part in. I believe that the Southern Jurisdiction Scottish Rite 30th degree may mention Thoth -- I could be wrong.



But anyway, I know that the claimed works of Hermes are included somewhat in Masonic teaching.


Nope, that's not true either. First of all, it's Hermes Trismegistus, who is different from the Greek God Hermes, who, let's face it, is only associated with Thoth because of Greek conquest (although I don't object to their being associated). Serapis, I believe (and perhaps ML will shed some Masonic light on the issue) is far closer to the idea of Thoth-Hermes.

Secondly, yes, Hermes Trismegistus is mentioned in Morals and Dogma, and very seldom but somewhat mentioned in the SR. He is not mentioned at all in the Craft Lodge, nor in the Royal Arch Chapter. Please be cautious about using the word "I know" about things you don't actually know.



Just wondering if you take this back to Thoth. I have always been interested in this man/god/man-god.


Neither Thoth nor Hermes were man-gods. You might be more rewarded in studying Bacchus (although he wasn't a man-god... it's complicated). Hermes Trismegistus was supposedly a man, but in fact was probably a myth (although his books are real, probably written by several people).



posted on Aug, 18 2004 @ 08:33 PM
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Originally posted by phantompatriot
pick up a masonic bible.


Thank you for your politeness and willing for others to understand....very good of you.



posted on Aug, 18 2004 @ 08:38 PM
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Originally posted by stoneskull
I think the main part of that hostility is the secretiveness. That it's exclusive and is not often talked about in the mainstream. People tend to fear the unknown, and allow their prejudice to be influenced by the negative force.

I agree with this!!!
Another reason would be people dislike what they don't know, almost as jealousy. They feel they are excluded and react negatively.


________________
LADY V~~
These are comments from another woman to you.
I am sorry your brother and father acted as they did and, esp. your father disrespecting you.
FWIW, I think that although Masons strive for betterment in their lives, they are also human, just as we all are. Sometimes, Masons fail on their path. Also, you must remember some Masons take their oaths more seriously than others.
TD, MM, ML, AK, and JCMJ ( I just know I will forget some
)are examples of what a Mason should be, IMHO. It seems more of us should act as they do, even if we are not cut out to be a Mason.

[edit on 18-8-2004 by DontTreadOnMe]



posted on Aug, 18 2004 @ 08:40 PM
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Nope, that's not true either. First of all, it's Hermes Trismegistus, who is different from the Greek God Hermes, who, let's face it, is only associated with Thoth because of Greek conquest (although I don't object to their being associated). Serapis, I believe (and perhaps ML will shed some Masonic light on the issue) is far closer to the idea of Thoth-Hermes.

Secondly, yes, Hermes Trismegistus is mentioned in Morals and Dogma, and very seldom but somewhat mentioned in the SR. He is not mentioned at all in the Craft Lodge, nor in the Royal Arch Chapter. Please be cautious about using the word "I know" about things you don't actually know.

quote:
Just wondering if you take this back to Thoth. I have always been interested in this man/god/man-god.

Neither Thoth nor Hermes were man-gods. You might be more rewarded in studying Bacchus (although he wasn't a man-god... it's complicated). Hermes Trismegistus was supposedly a man, but in fact was probably a myth (although his books are real, probably written by several people).


Oh, I thought the Greek God Hermes and Hermes Trimegistus were the same person/diety/myth?

But anyway, thats who I was thinking of, Hermes Trismegistus. And I have been waiting to read some of Hermes alleged works. But there are some interesting connections between Trismegistus and Thoth, thats another thread though, I made one about it actually.

I am just interested in Egyptian mysiticism and philosophy predating Socrates. But, I think Hermes work is supposed to have been written post AD.

So, I was curious about the inclusion Thoth's supposed works in Masonry, because it seems that the pyramid thing comes from somewhere...


I agree with this!!!
Another reason would be people dislike what they don't know, almost as jealousy. They feel they are excluded and react negatively.


I mean, can you blame people? Plus, there's a difference between fearing something and staying away from it and being excluded by not meeting certain expectations.

I guess there are a multitude of reasons that cannot be generalized though.

[edit on 18-8-2004 by Jamuhn]



posted on Aug, 18 2004 @ 08:48 PM
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LadyV if you would like i will post the Masonic Belief out of my Masonic Bible. Let me get it.


[qoute]
THE MASONIC BELIEF
There is one God,the Father of all men.
The Holy Bible is the great light in masonry,and the rule and guide for faith and practice.
Man is immortal.
Character determines destiny.
Love of man,is next to love of god., mans first duty.
Prayer, communion of man with god, is helpful.
Recognizing the impossibility of confining the teaching of Masonry to any fixed forms of expression, yet aknowledging the value of authorative statements of fundamental principles, the following is proclaimed as [/qoute]

and then the masonic teaching part starts. just wanted to give you a start.

EDIT: how do you make it be in a qoute?


[edit on 18-8-2004 by phantompatriot]

[edit on 18-8-2004 by phantompatriot]



posted on Aug, 18 2004 @ 08:50 PM
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mmm, yeah.

Look at this picture of the reverse-Great Seal:



As well as the spelled-out "Mason", and as well as the hexagram, you can see, by the angle of the front wall of the pyramid (straight going across) compared to the viewable side-wall that this is a 5-corner pyramid... like if the Pentagon was the base of it. If you were to fold down the walls, they would make the points of the pentagram.

BTW, the other half of the Great Seal, also holds a hexagram:



Add the "masonic" two-headed eagle, the active 33 symbol,



the snake eating its own tail,



and the hex-knowledge, you get this:





[edit on 18/8/04 by stoneskull]



posted on Aug, 18 2004 @ 08:53 PM
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why the sickle and the hammer that is not masonic? Thats from the Soviet flag. And the snake eating his tail is from another society.



posted on Aug, 18 2004 @ 08:57 PM
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Originally posted by phantompatriot

EDIT: how do you make it be in a qoute?


[edit on 18-8-2004 by phantompatriot]


at the beginning of your quote you need quote in brackers []
at the end you need /quote
also in brackets

Also, in the section right above where you type type your reply is the formatting mode click on the yellow symbol, second from the right. It is the quote symbol.
Feel free to u2u me if you have any other questions, I'll try to help







[edit on 18-8-2004 by DontTreadOnMe]



posted on Aug, 18 2004 @ 09:02 PM
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DontTreadOnMe thats exactly what i did. i dont see anything wrong. maybe ats does this to all newbies.



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