Originally posted by LadyV
Why are three clubs needed for enlightenment? It makes no sense...

Oh, come now... now you're just grasping at straws. Why shouldn't there be three organisations (they're not clubs). Beside that, Freemasonry doesn't claim to be the only road to Enlightenment, simply one that some people choose to follow.

Here's my experience with women and Freemasonry -- see if you fit in here. A couple of women I knew were very upset that they couldn't become Freemasons. "It's sexist," etc., were the battle-cries. So, I told them that if they could find five other women (seven is the minimum number necessary to make up a Masonic Lodge), I would do everything in my power to help them start a women's Lodge in my city. Both of them rapidly decided they didn't want to be Masons after all. The only reason they wanted to be Freemasons was because it was something the boys could do and they couldn't. As soon as they discovered they could do it too, it lost all fascination.

I see the same thing from you, LadyV (and forgive me if I'm seeing something that isn't there). You're all high-and-mighty about how Freemasonry is bad because it doesn't accept women, and how can women gain the knowledge of Masonry if they're not let in? So, someone tells you how women can join Freemasonry, either in Lodges that accept both men and women or in Lodges that only accept women... but even that is good enough for you.

I don't think you mean it this way, but this is the way it sounds to me: "Men have something they are doing on their own which gives them pleasure... we can't have that! The only proper way for things to be is either men and women being miserable together, or men getting enjoyment only when it is regulated and dispensed by women." Am I upset by this? Yes. I hear it all too often from some women. On the other hand, I'm encouraged, because the vast majority of women I know do not think that way -- they are decent, reasonable, and only wish the best for everyone -- even if it means that the men sometimes have nights to themselves.

Originally posted by LadyV
will also put other exploitive films...if you support one, you are support it all with your money.....that's the point I was making....

That's nonsense. If I choose to buy a book from Harper-Collins, am I supporting the heroin habit of an editor who works for that company*? If I buy a Suzuki, am I supporting the wife-beater who is the son of a woman who works as a car designer*? I guess, in a sense, my money is going to them, but that doesn't mean I approve of their activities or that I am in any sense of the word supporting them. If you dig deep enough, you can see how spending any money whatsoever supports something unwholesome somewhere down the line. Heck -- I give $100 to Christian Children's fund... they use it to provide a vaccine that saves the lives of 40 children... one of those children grows up to be a murderous tyrant, who kills 10,000 innocent civilians. Does that make me a murderer?

*NB none of these organisations have any connection to heroin or wife-beating, to my knowledge. The examples are purely fictitious.

No..I have no desire to be a mason, or be involved in other club! I don't even belong to Coven for my own religion...just not into it at all. I am also not much of "cry sexist" person at all...I do go for equal pay for equal work, as long as the female in a man's job is actually "doing" the same work....My interest here is that I keep reading at this board, about Masonic enlightenment and morals ect.....yet, those masons I have met in my life, were not that at all, the Masons was a club for men to go and get away from the woman in there lives and I have heard of other goings on at these meetings that did not correspond to enlightenment or moral values....I am trying to learn and respectfully take offense at your purporting my intentions to be otherwise. I have always seen the Mason as something close to a collage fraternity...and well know what that's all about...I'm waiting to be proven wrong.........

Originally posted by LadyV
yet, those masons I have met in my life, were not that at all, the Masons was a club for men to go and get away from the woman in there lives and I have heard of other goings on at these meetings that did not correspond to enlightenment or moral values....

I have always seen the Mason as something close to a collage fraternity...and well know what that's all about...I'm waiting to be proven wrong.........

It is the tradition of our order not to reply to slander and attack.

Since time immemorial, it has been the tradition of Freemasonry and Freemasons not to reply to slander and attack. It is felt that nothing can be gained from striving with the hateful. Although his philosophy is foreign to the order, we must recall the words of Nietzsche :

"Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster,
and if you gaze into the Abyss, the Abyss gazes also into you."

If a man is to improve himself, he must take practical steps to do so, and for this reason I will not reply to this attack. Please do not take my silence for assent... it is merely an indication that the argument presented is self-evidently false and baseless.

Those with serious questions about Masonry or my experiences therein are invited to contact me by U2U or through a message in the "Secret Societies" forum.

I am not slandering nor attacking you or the masons....I am telling you what "I" have always heard and what I have seen...and trying to learn truth, which is the just of this site. I'm sorry you see it otherwise...by not responding to those who wish to honestly learn, and clumping them with those that wish to belittle, you are doing your own club a huge disservice in teaching others something positive and dispelling what you say are myths....this is very confusing...

[edit on 18-8-2004 by df1]

[edit on 18-8-2004 by df1]

Well, apparently there is a convenient rule with the Masons that will make it impossible for others to truly understand this club. I think it is very clear to most people that I was not ridiculing or attacking them...just asking honest questions that were taken wrong...or they wanted to take them wrong in order to not answer...
SO much for seeking truth and learning...

Lady,

The following may help shed some light on your question, as it a brief synopsis of what is done in Masonry.

When a man applies for membership and is elected, he undergoes three ceremonies of initiation, technically called "degrees", which generally occur at three separate meetings. These ceremonies are generally divided into two sections: "floor work" and "lectures".
In the floor work, the Candidate is an active participant in a staged drama which recounts the lore of the fraternity. In the lecture session, the meaning of the ceremony, and the symbols presented to him there, are explained.

After he has received the third degree, he is a Master Mason and a full member of the fraternity. The majority of our members who reach the third degree in the USA "drop out" after their initiation, and never return, although many continue to pay their dues. The "drop out" rate is, IMO, due to lack of interest in the fraternity's teachings, which are primarily philosophical and moral. About 80% of Americans who are Masons attend Lodge less than twice per year, with a large percentage of these not attending at all. This staggering number indicates that most card-carrying Lodge members are probably not well versed in Masonry or its teachings.

Those who choose to become active in the fraternity will attend meetings of his own Lodge, as well as visit neighboring Lodges, on more or less a regular basis. Lodges meet at least monthly for business meetings. At these meetings, the Lodge is opened ritualistically, and business is decided. Except for the ritualistic opening and closing, these meetings are more or less the same as those of the civic clubs: the Secretary reads the minutes of the last meeting and reads the Lodge's bills for the month, which are approved by the Lodge.
Unfinished business is discussed, then new business. During business, members may make motions which, if seconded, are discussed and voted upon following Robert's Rules of Order.
After business, the Lodge is closed ritualistically, and the members proceed to the dining room and enjoy fellowship and food.

For the most part, if a Mason wishes Masonic knowledge, he must "go it alone", studying it as a hobby in his spare time, since most meetings are for business or initiation. Thankfully, this is beginning to change, as more and more younger men enter the fraternity and have begun demanding Masonic education. Masonic Research Lodges are becoming widespread which are dedicated to Masonic scholarship....but these intellectual pursuits are often frowned upon by the "Old Guard", who still believe that Masonry is all about the hot dogs and cake after the meeting.

So, in a sense, Masonry is divided. One faction, the status quo of the fraternity, maintains the "old boys club" outlook, with little interest for philosophy or symbolism. Some in this clique have even suggested we abandon initiation and degrees entirely, open our meetings completely to the public, and embrace the "civic club" attitude.

The other faction, the opposition of which I am myself a member of (I call us the "Masonic Trotskyists", lol), believes that Masonry is first and foremost a philosophical institution, and that the "civic club" mentality is an innovation and threat to our traditions. We in the opposition faction are generally interested in the esoteric aspect of Masonry, most notably that contained in Kabalah and Hermeticism, and wish to transmit these traditions unsullied to posterity through Freemasonry.

Fiat Lvx.





[edit on 18-8-2004 by Masonic Light]

So your saying that much of masonry is a get together of men...? What do you do at these get togathers? Also...when it is serious with ritual...what types of rituals are they? What is the "means to an end" for them? What "type" of ritual. Are they similar to religious ceremonies? Also...do the mason do any type of outside work, such as charity, ect...thank you for talking to me..

Here in lies the problem with porn...there is NO innocent porn...it is all tied together...people like to think there is innocent porn in order to justify there use of it. Yes, there are those that do it for kicks...but the majority of it is horrifying and involves drugging, kidnapping, and child pornography...they all tie in together and branch out together. in supporting what people consider innocent porn, you are supporting it all...and before someone starts spouting that I don't know what I am talking about...yes, sadly, I do!

Define porn.

-P

Originally posted by LadyV
So your saying that much of masonry is a get together of men...?

A large part of masonry, our stated purpose, is for good men to be better men. One way we achieve this lofty mission statement is through the use of our ritual, which emphasises moral behavior through the use of allegory illustrated in symbols designed to engender serious contemplation. Another way we achieve this is through, what for lack of a better term, is peer pressure and by role modeling, in an informal sense.

Another way we seek to become better men is by subduing our own passions, and sublimating them into more socially and spiritually acceptable outliets, for instance service to the community and to each other. Fraternal bonding is essential to human beings, for the role modeling I mentioned above, and for simple human interaction. For instance, when you associate with good men trying to be good men, you, consciously and unconsciously, seek to be a good man, to be accepted by the group.

What do you do at these get togathers?

We work ritual, we talk, we eat, we plan (not world domination) but in working together, we model behaviors necessary to being better men. That's psycho babble for fraternal association.

Also...when it is serious with ritual...what types of rituals are they?

Now here's where I invoke my obligation to keep keep secrets. The ritual is the work of the lodge, degree conferral, stated meetings, memorials, funerals, cornerstone layings. all are types of rituals in masonry.

What is the "means to an end" for them?

I am sorry, but I do not think I understand what you mean.

What "type" of ritual. Are they similar to religious ceremonies?

I guess in the sense that ALL rituals are similar, then yes, but the ritual does not invoke, it is more meant to impress certain truths upon the candidate, where religious ritual is meant to invoke the deity or certain outcomes.

Also...do the mason do any type of outside work, such as charity, ect...thank you for talking to me..

Masons are a group, donate over $760 MILLION dollars per year through various charitable activites, and give millions more per year in college scholarships, Angel Funds, community service and other activities meant to improve the communities in which we live and the lives of those around us.

Originally posted by theron dunn[/]

Masons are a group, donate over $760 MILLION dollars per year through various charitable activites, and give millions more per year in college scholarships, Angel Funds, community service and other activities meant to improve the communities in which we live and the lives of those around us.

WOW! I had no idea!

Charity should be private, and we do not necessarily go around shouting it at the top of our lungs, but when it comes up, as in your question...

The figure is MOSTLY from the Shrine Hospitals run in the US and Canada. Shriners are ALL masons, and the Shrine is the Charitable "wing" of the blue lodges... also a great group of guys... I know because I am one.

Originally posted by LadyV
So your saying that much of masonry is a get together of men...?

A very large part, yes.

What do you do at these get togathers? Also...when it is serious with ritual...what types of rituals are they? What is the "means to an end" for them? What "type" of ritual. Are they similar to religious ceremonies? Also...do the mason do any type of outside work, such as charity, ect...thank you for talking to me..

Most meetings are business meetings, the description of which I've posted earlier. As for the rituals, they are of several types: initiations, memorial services for deceased members, and installation of officers compose the largest part of Freemasonry's rituals.

The initiation rituals are scripted dramas in which the candidate takes part; in this sense they are similar to theatrical plays. According to Masonic legend, our fraternity began at the building of the Temple in Jerusalem during the reign of Solomon, third king of Israel. In the initiation ceremonies, legendary semi-historical events are reinacted concerning the construction of the Temple; like with Aesop's fables, these legends teach morals that are further inculcated in the degree's lectures.

Memorial services and installation of officers are generally open to the public. Each Grand Lodge has its own distinct ceremony for these events, although they are all similar.

As for charity, as Bro. Dunn mentioned, the fraternity is actively involved in philanthropy. At the Grand Lodge level, most Masonic organizations have funds that assist Veterans Hospitals, with some sponsoring retirement homes. But charity t the Blue Lodge level often comes in the form of non-organized charity, i.e., it is common for a member to request at a business meeting that the Lodge help a widow who lives on his street pay a power bill, and things to this effect.
Other Masonic groups are most focused on organized charity. The Supreme Councils of the 33° have instituted the Scottish Rite Foundation for the treatment of pre-school children with speech and language disabilities. The Scottish Rite also operates two orthopedic hospitals for children.
The York Rite sponsors the Knights Templar Eye Foundation, which assists surgical expenses for the elderly whose sight would be at risk without surgery.
The Shrine operates a broad system of Shriners Children Hospitals that exist in the US, Canada, and Mexico. The Shrine also operates two Shrine Burn Centers, which are consdered the most advanced hospitals in the world for the treatment of burn victims.
None of the above Masonic organizations have ever charged a patient or patient's family a single cent; they are all operated by the generosity of our individual members who voluntary contribute, as well as the generosity of the general public who decide to donate.

Fiat Lvx.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
So, in a sense, Masonry is divided. One faction, the status quo of the fraternity, maintains the "old boys club" outlook, with little interest for philosophy or symbolism.

I must say that either I disagree with your take on the situation, or Freemasonry is in a very different place up here in Canada. Up here, it is most certainly NOT the status quo for Lodges to be purely social. I fact, you might split Freemasonry up here (in my experience) into three generations:

i) The older members, 50 + : these members tend to have a very strong interest in moral and complex philosophical teachings of the order, and try very hard to make those teachings known to new Masons in an appropriately gradual way. These members similarly tend to be those who have the greatest interest in maintaining traditions, and also those with the greatest experience in appendant bodies (such as the Scottish Rite) and Paramasonic bodies (such as the Martinists). I met one Martinist at Scottish Rite (who had the provocative name of Simon, if you can believe it!) gave me extensive information on Theosophic philosophy and mysticism, while all the time stopping himself "oops, I'm not supposed to tell you that!" etc. It was a tremendously cute conversation... anyway, I'm getting off my central point.

ii) The middle-aged members. These members appear to have the greatest interest in moral teachings, and generally are those who are running the Craft. They tend to put an _awful_ lot of work into administration, and so sometimes are at odds with the older generation. The middle generation tends to produce the highest number of non-traditional ideas.

iii) The younger members. We have the greatest interest in simple philosophical teachings and moral classification. We tend to be highly traditionallist.

Some in this clique have even suggested we abandon initiation and degrees entirely, open our meetings completely to the public, and embrace the "civic club" attitude.

There are very few up here who would dare to suggest such a thing.

The other faction, the opposition of which I am myself a member of (I call us the "Masonic Trotskyists", lol), believes that Masonry is first and foremost a philosophical institution, and that the "civic club" mentality is an innovation and threat to our traditions.

I agree that the "club" mentality is an innovation and a threat, but I find it odd you consider yourselves revolutionaries a la Trotsky. This is very much the opposite of the way it is up here.

We in the opposition faction are generally interested in the esoteric aspect of Masonry, most notably that contained in Kabalah and Hermeticism, and wish to transmit these traditions unsullied to posterity through Freemasonry.

These interests tend to be universal among the Grand Lodge Officers, etc., up here. In fact, there has been only one District Deputy Grand Master for my district, to my knowledge, who has not been a member of an appendant body.

Originally posted by AlexKennedy
I must say that either I disagree with your take on the situation, or Freemasonry is in a very different place up here in Canada. Up here, it is most certainly NOT the status quo for Lodges to be purely social.

As mentioned, the bulk of my criticism was directed to US Masonry, which is the only Masonry of which I have direct knowledge. However, I have heard similar complaints from Canadian Brethren, via Philalethes and other organizations. One of the biggest recent controversies was a Canadian Grand Master revealing esoteric modes of recognition to a journalist while visiting the UK, with the journalist then publishing it. The defense of this Grand Master was taken up by many a Canadian Brother, who said that he had the right to reveal "club secrets", ostensibly because he carried a "Grand" in his title.

I agree that the "club" mentality is an innovation and a threat, but I find it odd you consider yourselves revolutionaries a la Trotsky. This is very much the opposite of the way it is up here.

I use Trotsky here as an example because he was, after all, the ideological "purist" who the Stalinist innovators ran out of town. This is not to necessarily say that we are somehow "Masonic revolutionaries"; only that, like the Trotskyists, we keep preaching theoretical traditionalism (us in Masonry like Trotsky in Marxism). And, like Trotsky, our arguments are often frowned upon by the status quo (note: I'm not here comparing the Masonic status quo to the brutal Stalinist status quo; I'm merely drawing the analogy that the Stalinists, who did indeed twist Marxism in order to transform it into what they themselves wanted, were innovators in their system, and frowned upon the orthodox).

These interests tend to be universal among the Grand Lodge Officers, etc., up here. In fact, there has been only one District Deputy Grand Master for my district, to my knowledge, who has not been a member of an appendant body.

As mentioned, I have no direct personal experience with Canadian Masonry, but from what I've read by the Canadian Brethren, conditions there are very similar to those here. Here, most of our Grand Officers are also members of the higher bodies, but being a 33° Grand Poohbah does not necessaily make one a Qabalist or Hermeticist, or even a Masonic student. I attended the conferral of the 32° recently, where the word "Kabalah" was mispronounced in the same way by each of the officers during their respective lectures. If they don't know how to pronounce it, chances are they have no idea what it means.

Fiat Lvx.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
As mentioned, I have no direct personal experience with Canadian Masonry, but from what I've read by the Canadian Brethren, conditions there are very similar to those here. Here, most of our Grand Officers are also members of the higher bodies, but being a 33° Grand Poohbah does not necessaily make one a Qabalist or Hermeticist, or even a Masonic student. I attended the conferral of the 32° recently, where the word "Kabalah" was mispronounced in the same way by each of the officers during their respective lectures. If they don't know how to pronounce it, chances are they have no idea what it means.

Well, of course, given my slight experience, I can only speak for the Grand Officers in my jurisdiction, but they all seem to have some appreciation for hermetica and esoterica, or, if not that, at least they feel that our traditions should be maintained. I had not heard of a Grand Master up here revealing modes of recognition -- that's atrocious.

The one thing about all of this is that as long as there are those with respect for hermetica, the tradition will be continued. There have always been those who, while they may be within the temple physically, are still profane in their minds and spirits. In other words, Masonic Light, Trotsky on!