Trying again to learn about Masons and secret clubs

Ok..I have read many of the Masonic threads...but still not learned too much, I even started a thread asking questions, but it just ended up in an argument match....I don't get this secret society stuff. My step-father and step brother were masons, my step brother has his name in some book of masons of top men or something, I can't remember the exact name....now, I have read that masons are supposed to be people that better themselves and hold a religious value, but my step father cheated on my mother...lied big time....my step brother looked at a lot of porn, blaa, blaa, blaa..... they sat their butts up in church every Sunday.....someone explain these secret society things to me....it seems from what I have read, there basically just like clubs for men...what are their purposes?

my last thread on this
www.abovetopsecret.com...


[edit on 8/18/2004 by LadyV]

Im sorry to hear that LadyV

Do masons close to your step-father and step-brother know this?

Originally posted by LadyV
Ok..I have read many of the Masonic threads...but still not learned too much, I even started a thread asking questions, but it just ended up in an argument match....I don't get this secret society stuff. My step-father and step brother were masons, my step brother has his name in some book of masons of top men or something, I can't remember the exact name....now, I have read that masons are supposed to be people that better themselves and hold a religious value, but my step father cheated on my mother...lied big time....my step brother looked at a lot of porn, blaa, blaa, blaa..... they sat their butts up in church every Sunday.....someone explain these secret society things to me....it seems from what I have read, there basically just like clubs for men...what are their purposes?

my last thread on this
www.abovetopsecret.com...

LV, there is a cornucopia of Masonic information on ATS, but it is the proverbial wheat from the chaff scenario, and unless your ready to immerse yourself in the Secret Societies Forum for an extended period of time, determining the players and their veracity can be tedious.

As I have just posted a good primer that will give both sides of the �perception� of Freemasonry, I will do so again:

Freemasonry Primer, plus links elsewhere.

As to the unfortunate circumstances regarding your family members, the impetus for these transgressions are unique to the individual, and are in conflict with the teachings of Freemasonry. For some reason, there seems to be a predisposition to first identify the perpetrator of ill will as a Freemason, ignoring all other (and just as irrelevant affiliations), my point being, your family members are members of a particular religion, political affiliation, economic strata, education level, practitioner of vocation, marital status, even citizenship of a specific country. None of these rose as a particular prima facie cause for their exploits (obviously one has to be married to cheat on their wife, but lets categorize that as monogamous infidelity), yet Freemasonry appears to have stuck out as a cause (I make no excuse for their actions, they are reprehensible� in the case of the pornography this obviously was some overt, and inappropriate use, such as around children?). There have even been threads started on the premise of �my dad abused me because he was a Freemason�, no your dad abused you because he was a sociopath (insert jerk if it makes it easier), who unfortunately was a Mason (and probably some kind of every other demographic previously listed), and quite honestly had no business being one.

I hope your second query into this subject is more successful, and the urge of other �contributors� to usurp this attempt keep their passions in due bounds. If events overtake your current efforts feel free to u2u myself, AlexKennedy, Senrak, Masonic Light, Theron Dunn, or Leveller with a specific question (my apologies to anyone who felt left out). I�m sure you can determine who would be most appropriate based on previous posts, and the subject in question.

Good Luck in your quest.

Monkeys of Diplomacy, not just for �International Crises� anymore�

Originally posted by LadyV
I have read that masons are supposed to be people that better themselves and hold a religious value, but my step father cheated on my mother...lied big time....my step brother looked at a lot of porn, blaa, blaa, blaa..... they sat their butts up in church every Sunday.....
[edit on 8/18/2004 by LadyV]

The masonic order is not a babysitting service. There is no big brother following people around to make sure they follow morals. We are a fraternity that strives for high morals and values. People need to follow these morals in their heart and masonry helps provide some ideas and values. If they break them or do not follow them, then they will have to deal with it internally within themselves. I do not see how pornos or cheating have any relevance to your question, unless you are trying to blame them on the masons? Many priests also went to church every week, and some did allot worse than pornos. So, as you can see, your statements about internal morals are not really valid here. MM, has provided some good information on masonry in general, so no need to hit that topic again.

Originally posted by LadyV
looked at a lot of porn, blaa, blaa, blaa.....

Wait -- looking at porn makes you a bad person? I guess most men are bad people then, eh?

Seriously, though... my brethren have given very good answers on this issue so far, but I wanted to add that someone who cheats cruelly on his wife would probably be liable to Masonic prosecution (the only consequence of which, of course, is expulsion or suspendion from the Order), since the offence would probably fall under cruelty to women, which is a constitutionally un-Masonic activity. Woah, that was a long sentence.

To expand a tad on what my brohter Alex has stated, there is a general class of offense, immoral activities, which can lead to charges before the lodge and expulsion or suspension from the order. An outsider, under California Masonic Code anyway, can even bring the charges against a brother.

The Junior Warden of the lodge investigates the charge, then makes a determination as to the veracity of the charges, makes a report to the master and Senior Warden, and if necessary, proceeds with a Masonic trial.

ANY immoral activities can lead to masonic charges in other words... if the lodge knows. Our stated purpose is to make good men better, but we are not the thought police. However, if a brother is acting in a manner that would bring discredit to the fraternity, we do act, IF we know.

Ok...what is the just of being a Mason? What do you do, and why do you do what you do....for what means?

Hey there LadyV,

This is the book they give you when you turn 32, and graduate.

www.freemasons-freemasonry.com...

It'll give you a huge insight into the inner meanings of the degrees, the philosophy behind them, lessons learnt, etc. You couldn't start with a better book.

Why don't you just join the Masons LadyV and learn all about Liberty, Equality and Tolerance first hand?

Oh, that's right you don't have a penis. Never mind.

SO what do you guys do at your meetings? Eat, talk..do some rituals? All of the above? To what end are the rituals done for?

I think this post from Lady V confirms many of the criticisms levied by Pike in "Morals and Dogma", and touches upon my own thoughts as well.

MM is certainly correct that we have no babysitters or thought police, whose goal is to purge the Order of anyone "unorthodox". But there is nevertheless a problem here.

Pike mentions in his book that during the 18th century, the Blue Lodges were composed entirely of intellectuals and serious thinkers, who were extremely adamant about proper ethics.
Then, according to Pike's theory, over time, the Blue Lodges increasingly became populated by the mediocre as membership grew at an unprecedented rate. Many of these men were good and decent men personally, but had no inclination toward philosophical and scientific learning.

This, according to Pike, led the Masonic intelligentsia to institute the new �higher degrees�. The Blue Lodges contained rudimentary instruction for the masses, while the higher degrees were to be populated by only the most serious of the Masonic students.

And so it was in Pike�s day; he himself had observed many of the Brethren of the Blue Lodges treating Masonry as a social club, and not taking its moral and philosophical teachings seriously. This is what led him to state unequivocally in M&D that many in the Blue Lodges deserve to be misled by what he considered a simpleton�s interpretation of Masonic symbolism. This quote of Pike�s is still used ad nauseum by anti-Masons as �proof� that �higher ups� deceive Blue Lodge members, but they show in this context they have absolutely no understanding of what Pike was saying. He was merely here pointing out that since the masses, who had no desire for learning or self-improvement, had entered the Fraternity, it was useless to try to force it upon them, who were incapable of understanding it anyway.

This is why in Pike�s time the higher degrees of the Scottish Rite were limited to only the most studious. But even this has changed. With the advent of the Ancient Arabic Order of Nobles of the Mystic Shrine, a policy was instituted that only those who held the 32� in the Scottish Rite, or the Order of the Temple in the York Rite, could become Shriners. This was originally intended to provide an incentive for Blue Lodge to become more serious about Masonry and advance in the traditional way through study, but in reality it had the opposite effect. Instead, it eventually caused both the Scottish and York Rite leaderships to rush new members through their systems in order to �get them to the Shrine�. Today, it is common to have �all the way in one day� classes, where non-Masons come in during the morning, and leave that night being 32� Scottish Rite Masons, Knights Templar, and Shriners, without any understanding of what Masonry is, and with many not even caring.

Therefore, as long as we continue down this road, we should not be surprised if our ranks are being filled with philandering husbands and porn freaks. I�ve been preaching this for years now; many respectable Brethren have agreed with me, while other respectable Brethren continue to disagree. Yet I do not see how it is possible to ignore the consequences before our very eyes. I have no reason to doubt Lady�s word, and I�m sure we could find similar testimony elsewhere among concerned Brethren.

What is important to remember is that each individual Mason represents the Fraternity to the public. It may be that one single guy is a Mason, and has only been to 3 meetings his entire life, being those of his own degrees. He may not have stepped within a Lodge room for years, and if he did, no one would remember him. But to the public, he is a �Mason�, and his actions, whether we like it or not, represent all of us, whether he�s a drunkard, or cheats on his wife, or whatever.

I do not claim to have all the answers, but if we get back to basics I think we would at least be on the proper path. My criticism here is directed mostly at American Masonry; on the Continent, Masonry remains very traditional, and does not suffer the same problems we do. They still require Candidates to submit scholarly essays and demonstrate personal growth before advancing. This may not be perfect, but it at least impresses the Candidate that they take Freemasonry very seriously, and that true Masonry is practiced out in the world, not only in the Lodge.

Fiat Lvx.

Originally posted by AlexKennedy

Originally posted by LadyV
looked at a lot of porn, blaa, blaa, blaa.....

Wait -- looking at porn makes you a bad person? I guess most men are bad people then, eh?

No....Not if your not purporting to be a good [I] moralistic, religious
human being...if you are, then yes, it makes you on the immoral side...and not practicing what you preach or purport to be.

Thank you Masonic Light, for your answer....now let me ask this. Why is it of any importance that it be only for men? If the just of this club is to enlighten and become a better person, why is it for men only?

Originally posted by LadyV
No....Not if your not purporting to be a good [I] moralistic, religious
human being...if you are, then yes, it makes you on the immoral side...and not practicing what you preach or purport to be.

Woah, woah, woah! There are a bunch of unsupported assumptions here. I purport to be a good, moralistic, religious human being -- at least I try. But I don't see huge problems in people looking at pornography provided the people involved have not been injured or coerced. I'm not saying that pornography is all puppies and rainbows (unless it's a very specific kind of pornography (by which I mean rainbow-puppy pornography)), but just because you're moral, it doesn't mean that you hate pornography a priori. I mean, that kind of thinking winds up with taking "Sex and the City" (a show, I admit it, I find tremendously stupid and offensive -- but not anti-moral) off the air.

[edit on 18-8-2004 by AlexKennedy]

Originally posted by AlexKennedy

Originally posted by LadyV
No....Not if your not purporting to be a good [I] moralistic, religious
human being...if you are, then yes, it makes you on the immoral side...and not practicing what you preach or purport to be.

Woah, woah, woah! There are a bunch of unsupported assumptions here. I purport to be a good, moralistic, religious human being -- at least I try. But I don't see huge problems in people looking at pornography provided the people involved have not been injured or coerced.

Here in lies the problem with porn...there is NO innocent porn...it is all tied together...people like to think there is innocent porn in order to justify there use of it. Yes, there are those that do it for kicks...but the majority of it is horrifying and involves drugging, kidnapping, and child pornography...they all tie in together and branch out together. in supporting what people consider innocent porn, you are supporting it all...and before someone starts spouting that I don't know what I am talking about...yes, sadly, I do!

But that's another thread...I'd like to keep this on the mason topic, though I still stand by what I said above about morals and pornography....it would certainly go against the Christian view of morals.

Originally posted by LadyV
Thank you Masonic Light, for your answer....now let me ask this. Why is it of any importance that it be only for men? If the just of this club is to enlighten and become a better person, why is it for men only?

There are different reasons given for this, depending on whom you ask.

The first reason, which is the historical one, is that only men were admitted to the trade guilds in the middle ages. While this reason is not applicable to modern times, modern Freemasonry is a direct descendent of the stonemason guild, which operated as a fraternity for construction workers. Although the Lodge is no longer a construction firm, it still retains the form of a fraternity; in like manner, sororities admit only women.

A second reason is that, in 18th century Europe when Masonry developed its modern character, it was often dangerous to be a Mason. If the fraternity had admitted women, they would have been subject to arrest, torture, rape, and execution, by the authorities. This, of course, is also why Masonry became a secret society.

A third reason is psychological, and is dependent on the first above. A fraternity affords the opportunity for male bonding, and has here taken a cue from the pre-Christian tribal cultures. Upon reaching a certain age, usually 13 or 14, a young man would be brought before the elders and be initiated into the legends and lore of his society, after which he would no longer be considered a child, but a man. Freemasonry can be, at least partially, seen a modern continuation of this.

Fiat Lvx.

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by LadyV
Thank you Masonic Light, for your answer....now let me ask this. Why is it of any importance that it be only for men? If the just of this club is to enlighten and become a better person, why is it for men only?

There are different reasons given for this, depending on whom you ask.

I think Fred Flintstone explained this best to Wilma as don't you worry your pretty little head about it before going off to host a beauty pagent.


Okay, I'm done. I'm really just kidding guys.

Originally posted by LadyV
But that's another thread...I'd like to keep this on the mason topic, though I still stand by what I said above about morals and pornography....it would certainly go against the Christian view of morals.

Sorry, but if you want to make comments like that, you really should prove them. I'm not saying that child pornography is a good thing (in fact, I'll go out on a limb, and say it's a bad thing). Nor am I saying that there is not exploitative pronography. But I am saying that there does exist pornography which is not exploitative. The whole subject is hard to talk about, fine. I understand that... I don't like talking about it any more than you do. But if you want to demonize pornography, a little evidence might be in order (just like if you want to demonize anything else).

Beside what ML is saying (which is completely correct), you must remember that there IS Lady's Freemasonry (I don't like the term "women's Freemasonry," as the Ladies involved in Lady's Freemasonry are most definitely of exalted charater, and therefore appropriately "Ladies") and Co-Masonry (which accepts both men and women). To pretend that women don't have access to Freemasonry is simply incorrect. Yes, sadly, they do have to work harder to get initiated, and if it were up to me, it wouldn't be so. But do you know the best way for women to ensure that Lady's Freemasonry expands and is more easy to join? Why, they simply need to join and work hard for their Order, just as men do.

Originally posted by AlexKennedy

Originally posted by LadyV
But that's another thread...I'd like to keep this on the mason topic, though I still stand by what I said above about morals and pornography....it would certainly go against the Christian view of morals.

Sorry, but if you want to make comments like that, you really should prove them. I'm not saying that child pornography is a good thing (in fact, I'll go out on a limb, and say it's a bad thing). Nor am I saying that there is not exploitative pronography. But I am saying that there does exist pornography which is not exploitative. The whole subject is hard to talk about, fine. I understand that... I don't like talking about it any more than you do. But if you want to demonize pornography, a little evidence might be in order (just like if you want to demonize anything else).

Well...I know what I know because I am a childhood survivor of sexual abuse which involved porn, waaaay back then...and I do not want to get into it again here at this board, as I have already once before.....more recently I have been involved in other ways, in preventatives.....they all tie in together is the best way I can explain it, many of the same people that may put out something viewed as not exploitive....will also put other exploitive films...if you support one, you are support it all with your money.....that's the point I was making....


Back to the masons....I understand why, in the past it was or had to be, an all male club, but why now? Times change, things advance....