What next? Astronomers, Celebrities or the CIA?

As some of you may have noticed, I’ve recently posted a few rather long threads (e.g.
(“Massive UFO disclosure in USA : A challenge for ATS”, “Canadian disclosure: “UFO Found” and other documents/photos”, and “Debunked! The FBI alien bodies memo – A case study in the reinvention of the wheel”).

So, what next?

I probably have time in the near future to finish sorting out my notes and exploring ONE out of three of the various topics I’ve been working on during the last few years. Each of these topics would result in another rather long thread. I’d find it interesting to finish off my work on any of them. Rather than spend my time trying to decide which one to complete next, I thought I’d bash out a brief summary of each and invite you to indicate which you’d like to see the most. If the indications of interest are mixed or fairly close, I’ll give particular weight to the views of anyone that can help with any of the outstanding matters I’d like to deal with in relation to the relevant item.

If no one is interested in any of these potential threads, well, I'll think again...

*** 1. Astronomers and UFOs:

*** 2. Celebrities and UFOs:

*** 3. UFO disclosure by the CIA

Since I'd be happy producing a thread on any of these three items, I'll leave the choice to you guys (and gals).

After outlining these three fairly large items I've been working on, I’ll just mention in passing a few other projects as well.

All the best,

Isaac

Option 1: Astronomers and UFOs

Short summary: This article highlights various statements made by some prominent skeptics in relation to astronomers and UFOS which were, quite simply, wrong. It deals with various myths relating to astronomers and UFOs, including considering some obvious problems in the polarized debates between skeptics and believers in relation to this issue. It covers some examples of sightings by individual astronomers and - more importantly – explores at some length some of the relevant statistical issues (including considering Sturrock’s survey and Gert Herb’s survey).

I need:

i. A bit of time…

ii. Ideally, I’d like a show of hands to be arranged at a meeting or two of amateur astronomers to respond to one or two questions. I’m thinking about emailing a couple of local groups that have regular meeting, but if anyone on ATS attends such meetings and is willing to ask the questions or pass on my requests to someone in charge then that would be great.

iii. I’d like to get some comments from contact Tim Printy and Chris Rutkowski (both of which will probably be fairly amenable to providing me with comments) and also from Phil Plait (which may be a bit harder to obtain, unless someone can make some sort of introduction for me).


iii. A brief introduction to someone at CUFOS, to improve my odds of getting some cooperation with a small part of the relevant thread.

Option 2: Celebrities and UFOs

Short summary: This article covers some problems with UFO sightings by celebrities (including unveiling the details behind some UFO hoaxes they have been involved in and misperceptions they have made) and how they could open doors. At least one of the hoaxes covered in this article includes a series of videos that appear on ATS on a regular basis and one of them is the foundation of a thread that has over 100 flags…

I need:

i. A bit of time…

ii. Not much else really. Of course, if anyone is able to pass on a few questions to any celebrity with an active interest in ufology, that could allow some rather interesting additions to this item…

Option 3 : UFO disclosure by the CIA

Short summary: This article is along the lines of two of my recent ones on
(“Massive UFO disclosure in USA : A challenge for ATS” and“Canadian disclosure: “UFO Found” and other documents/photos”) but with a focus on documents disclosed by the CIA. It also discusses a couple of the CIA employees that have worked in this area.

I need:

i. A bit of time…

ii. I would like to impose upon one member of ATS, Idealord, to create a spreadsheet relating to the CIA UFO documents along the lines of his work on the Canadian files in my thread “Canadian disclosure: “UFO Found” and other documents/photos”. The relatively small relevant section of the CIA’s FOIA website has quite a few similarities to the Canadian website, so presumably Idealord’s method can be adapted fairly easily (e.g. the PDF documents appear at URLs with consecutive numbers so we can use Flashget or a similar downloading manager again, and the GIF files have associated information that I’d like to extract – particularly the number of pages for each document). My one query is whether it is appropriate to use such Idealord’s automatic search process on the CIA’s website … but this is only the CIA’s FOIA website.

iii. A brief introduction to Dr Christopher “Kit” Green (which I may be able to arrange through Springer – who interviewed Kit Green a while ago - or via Mark Pilkington, the author of the relevant book “The Mirage Men”. I could simply try to contact Kit Green myself, via his art website or some other means, but I’d rather improve my odds of getting a response.

iv. Similarly, I’d like to put a few questions to Ron Pandolfi – but this is a lower priority.

v. I think Bruce Maccabee will be amenable to providing me with some comments and information.

I’m not planning on completing any of the following in the near future, but I’ll just mention a few possibilities in case anyone had strong feelings about them:

4. Small to medium projects:
a. UFO documents from Australia, New Zealand and Ireland
b. Untrue statements made by various government agencies
c. Gaps in the documents disclosed by the Air Force and CIA
d. Odd theories about UFOs
e. Some statistical projects
f. Rendlesham
g. More on how ATS members could make more of a contribution to ufology



5. Longer term projects:
a. Applying psychological and sociological insights gained from Ufology to the financial markets
b. My own website…


6. None of the above:
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/e38f49a56fd2.jpg[/atsimg] tg

Personally I'd like to see some info on the astronomers topic however I cannot provide any help unfortunately.

I would like to add however that I'm surprised to NOT see the O'hare 2006 sighting in your list of projects. In my opinion it's got to be THE best sighting in recent years.

I'm glad you got your thead started seamlessly finally and thank you for your work here, it's got to the best on ATS in this field.

Let me also add I would very much like to see your website up and running with a smooth presentation of all the data you must be colloecting from the Canadian and American document sites.

Originally posted by IsaacKoi
f. Rendlesham

I was hoping you were going to say Rendlesham next. I've seen some poor threads on it and considered covering it in a comprehensive thread but haven't taken the time apart from this quickie that went on a fascinating tangent but didn't turn into the more comprehensive thread I had hoped.

Rendlesham Incident: A Test of Virtual Reality Projectors (Jacques Vallee)

Just to remind you.

Originally posted by IsaacKoi www.abovetopsecret.com...
I've collated quite a bit of material on Rendlesham, but have not yet subjected all that material to a sustained attack. I've got another few UFO related projects to finish off first, but some serious work on Rendlesham is now getting close to the top of my list of ufological priorities.

It seems it isn't just my list that it keeps moving down.

Astronomers! As much as I like to bat the CIA and UFOs around, that Astronomer angle would answer some of my long-held questions.

Thanks for all your excellent posts, Isaac!

Astronomers don't see UFOs, so that's out

Definitely the CIA aspect

This is my order of preference … lol

1. CIA
2. Astronomers
3. NO NEED for celebrities… unless we are talking about JFK and his arm candy

Isaac you are the best!!!! Thank you!

Ok, so it looks like astronomers are roughly tied with the CIA so far, with no real interest in the celebrities thread (although perhaps my summary should have included a few of the more juicy details from the celebrity material...).

I'll give this thread a bit more time, then use it to make a decision.

(By the way Pimander, I'm still planning on doing something on Rendlesham in the fairly near future and have recently been making a few relevant contacts so that I can resolve some of the issues that arise from the fairly considerable volume of material relating to Rendlesham I've accumulated).

All the best,

Isaac

Originally posted by The GUT
Astronomers! As much as I like to bat the CIA and UFOs around, that Astronomer angle would answer some of my long-held questions.

Thanks for all your excellent posts, Isaac!

My thoughts exactly...

second...

reply to post by IsaacKoi
I think the CIA subject has the most legs and goes beyond the 'Wow Factor' that John Lennon saw a UFO or David Bowie thought he saw a news broadcast. Likewise, the astronomers angle is interesting yet has a limited shelf-life beyond accepting that it's a myth they don't, haven't or never saw a UFO.

With the CIA angle, it overflows into a lot of belief systems within ufology. Gordon Novel, Bob Collins, Kitt Green and Doty (amongst others) have been spinning the fabric of 'aliens' for decades. Holloman landings, evil aliens, cattle mutes and all the extras that go with it are sourced in the darker motivations of national security. The CIA hasn't been monitoring UFO researchers for no reason or for the sake of the legendary 'cover-up,' it's been a way of monitoring other agencies as well as counter-espionage. This aspect is almost unknown on ATS.

CIA technology like Project Palladium hasn't had a good treatment that examines the possibility that some early 60s UFO incidents were dry-runs for exercises in the Far East. Most of the available information on PP is limited to one edited paper although, I think, there's potential to extrapolate from the information.

Dr Dave Clark would probably be amenable to providing some evidence of the late 1940s infancy of psy-ops and adventures in Intel that preceded CIA involvement. Some of his research illustrates the motivations and methodology behind some of the late '70s and 80s assault on ufologists.

On the other hand, threads about astronomers or celebrities would be less contentious and easier to write than the CIA angle. Of the three, the celebrities idea would probably gain the most interest on ATS and further afield.

ETA: No links to avoid *spoilers*

Hi Kandinsky,

Thanks for your thoughtful comments.

Originally posted by Kandinsky
I think the CIA subject has the most legs

It certainly has the most depth - but there would be a limit to the extent I could explore those depths in a thread here. But a thread could be useful to identify further areas to be developed and also could be something that I could point to when contacting, say, Kit Green - if I'm not able to contact him for the purposes of writing that thread.

goes beyond the 'Wow Factor' that John Lennon saw a UFO or David Bowie thought he saw a news broadcast.

My notes for the celebrities thread have developed into quite a skeptical look at celebrities and UFOs, including a few hoaxes that involved household names and basic errors as to perception/reporting of UFOs. Also, I was thinking about exploring the doors that celebrities interested in UFOs could open, if they put their minds (and names) to it.

Likewise, the astronomers angle is interesting yet has a limited shelf-life beyond accepting that it's a myth they don't, haven't or never saw a UFO.

That would certainly be the focus of that thread - but possibly putting some of the key points to Tim Print, Plait and one or two other skeptics in a less contentious way than some ufologists have some so in the past, in an attempt to start a more constructive - and factually accurate - dialogue.

I must admit that I'm surprised that the astronomers thread has as much support so far as the other two options, because I thought that thread would seem rather dry and academic. (I omitted to mention that it would include a few graphs of relevant data - which should cut the number of readers considerably...).

With the CIA angle, it overflows into a lot of belief systems within ufology. Gordon Novel, Bob Collins, Kitt Green and Doty (amongst others) have been spinning the fabric of 'aliens' for decades.

Well, I thought to (largely) leave the Aviary aside. While I can (and will) cover the Robertson Panel etc, some of the more recent (alleged) activities of the CIA and other agencies are - so far as I'm aware - less well covered by disclosed documents. I'll have to have a look at "Project Beta", "Saucer Spies", "Mirage Men" and a few other books again to see if there is any related documentary material I really should look into and cover in the CIA thread.

Dr Dave Clark would probably be amenable to providing some evidence of the late 1940s infancy of psy-ops and adventures in Intel that preceded CIA involvement.

I'll have a lot at Dave's books again and send him an email. I think Mark Pilkington, author of "Mirage Men", has looked into this area in quite a bit of depth - although (as I've mentioned to him) I don't agree with all his conclusions. I have a few interesting points to make about this area...

On the other hand, threads about astronomers or celebrities would be less contentious and easier to write than the CIA angle. Of the three, the celebrities idea would probably gain the most interest on ATS and further afield.

I think you are right on each of these points. In terms of ease, I'm biased in favour of writing the astronomers thread - but I think it will probably be less interesting to most members of ATS than the other threads. I'll see what other opinions are expressed in this thread in the near future.

All the best,

Isaac

Originally posted by IsaacKoi
It certainly has the most depth - but there would be a limit to the extent I could explore those depths in a thread here. But a thread could be useful to identify further areas to be developed and also could be something that I could point to when contacting, say, Kit Green - if I'm not able to contact him for the purposes of writing that thread.

I like the CIA idea too; it certainly has far more teeth than the astronomer or celebrity ideas. While the medium you are working with is limited, I think it would be a disservice to just do an overview of the CIA's involvement with UFOs. Instead, focus on one particular aspect or angle. For example, Project Palladium as Kadinsky brought up or how the CIA has used UFO mythology as a cover for it's own activities. I think the CIA's interest (along with other government entities) in UFO groups and contactees during the early days of Ufology would make for a great topic.

Hey Isak.

I really enjoy reading your threads,so i'm sure what ever your thread is going to be about,we will enjoy it .

But you should write a thread about Astronomers and UFOs because they are educated people and i think we should trust them.

Cheers and all the best.

Originally posted by WingedBull
While the medium you are working with is limited, I think it would be a disservice to just do an overview of the CIA's involvement with UFOs. Instead, focus on one particular aspect or angle.

Hi WingedBull,

I have to disagree with you here.

In relation to the CIA, I think a thread giving an overview (and, importantly, dealing with obtaining and organising the available material) is the place to start.

I have not seen, for example, a basic index to the documents disclosed by the CIA. A bit boring, I know, but this is the sort of thing I would produce if I wanted to identify gaps or areas to be explored in more detail.

As with the Canadian and USA disclosure threads, these indexing tasks would be the objective of the CIA thread - even if most of the discussion is outlining the relevant history and providing some highlights from the documents. Since the volume of disclosed material is relatively small, I could (with a bit of help from, say, Idealord) probably produce an index BEFORE making the initial thread available so that subsequent discussion could focus on dealing with the gaps that I could identify.

Of course, an introduction to Kit Green could help make the CIA thread something a bit more special...

All the best,

Isaac

A quick tally of the views expressed so far:

4 in favour of Astronomers and UFOs
4 in favour of UFO disclosure by the CIA
0 in favour of Celebrities and UFOs

Well, that helps me narrow down which project to finish next - but two candidates are still standing.

Hello Isaac,

I'd also like to see a deeper investigation in the connection between the CIA and the UFO-Phenomenon. That's because it might bring up a different perspective on the UFO-complex as a whole. Because I think it's very important for all serious investigators of that phenomenon to know, how much of it is just a myth fabricated by the CIA to use it as the fundament of psyops or as a cover-up for secret military projects

I remember having seen once a german documentation about UFOs and how the US and the SU exploited them during the Cold War.

By the way, I just remember the strange case of the chase for a triangle-UFO above Belgium in the early 90ies. Recently I saw another german documentation about that case, and that it really confused the military of Belgium.

Considering, that many people assume, that the triangles are less of extraterrestrial origin, but rather of very earthly origin, this case (that happened right after the end of the Cold War) might bring another interesting light to the topic (in the way, that if UFOs were just a psy-op tool during the Cold War, so why were they still in use after the end of the Cold War, and the more, to play fool with a small allie like Belgium?)

Those are my initial thoughts to your question. Please forgive me for my bad english, but it isn't my first language.

kind regards and all the best!

Originally posted by Peloquin
Those are my initial thoughts to your question. Please forgive me for my bad english, but it isn't my first language.

Hi Peloquin

Many thanks for your comments.

As for your "bad English", it is better than the English of some people born in this country...

All the best,

Isaac