Why do masons get angry at people researching their beliefs?

reply to post by KSigMason


To misquote one of your brother mason getreadyalready,

"That is your interpretation to be made according to your beliefs."

It is laughable that you now try to twist an argument into me attacking masonry by misquoting dead guys when you have as yet provided any evidence as to the true meaning of these symbols, or even at the very least any evidence that they do not associate with what has been presented.

You merely attack my intelligence and character.

Mr. Political Science/Intelligence major, how can you be taken seriously when you resort to such methods?

See I can twist arguments and use deflection also

reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli

So you have yet to answer my questions:

Originally posted by KSigMason
Does my opinion mean less than these men?

Originally posted by KSigMason
So what Lodges practice according to the writings of Hall?

reply to post by KSigMason


I never touched on the lodges practices other than their symbols.

I do not know the intrigues of the lodges nor the variations on their rituals, as it seems neither do you or other fellow masons.

Hall never came out and changed his claims nor have they been refuted since his entrance to masonry.



I am pointing to the signs while you are asking the temperature to define this conundrum metaphorically.




And YES your opinion does mean less than theirs.

Well here is a video of a Shriner explaining what Lucifer is to him.



I get a kick out of going up to the Damascus temple on Friday nights when they have a 400 plus classic car show.

I have never been propositioned from any members. You can see the Eastern stars and squares and compasses everywhere.

Everyone that's referring to Satan and Lucifer as the same entity I believe is wrong.

People seem to forget that Lucifer was Gods right hand man. Until he crossed him.

He was an ANGEL.

But hey to each is own...

If these guys want to get together and conspire to take over the world or just have a cool car show and have some burgers and beer more power to them.

They seem nice.

No one tried to take me out back and drink virgins blood...

Oh there is also a nice little area for crafts so the lady's can do what they do.

reply to post by Zaanny


Haha that vid never gets old, grumpy old guy.

Oh well, live and let live, eh?

As long as they're not trying to control all economic, political and industrial sectors of the globe, whatever they want to engage in privately that is constitutionally protected is A-Ok to me.

That said, I'll never understand how people can talk all day long about being "enlightened" yet still fall for the old trap of luciferian doctrine.

Gnostic dualism I can live with, because it is more "eastern" than "christian" and as such I just look at it as a form of budhism. Luciferianism is just silly.

reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli

You say you never touched on lodge practices and public books, and yet you say this:

Originally posted by FriedBabelBroccoli
As for your comment that they don't influence the practices of the lodges let me remind you that non of your lodges perform the same rituals which was made quite clear by no1smootha, networkdude, and yourself concerning the use of a coffin vs a carpet.

You make it quite clear here that you believe that since we have no central governing authority that someone out there may practice according to their writings. Again, here to try to act as if you know more about Freemasonry than you really do. You make some bold statements without actually backing it up with accurate information.

Originally posted by FriedBabelBroccoli
And YES your opinion does mean less than theirs.

And this why Mason get angry at people is when anti-Masons don't believe what they are told particularly when it goes against the anti-Masonic agenda. Why does my opinion mean less? Do I need to publish a book? Do I need a "33" next to my name? Why is it you think you know more about Masonry? Do you not find yourself arrogant?

reply to post by Zaanny

Actually Lucifer was a Babylonian King who is only mentioned once in the entire Bible. People seem to forget that too.

reply to post by KSigMason


I find it hard to take you seriously when you did not know about the coffin being used in rituals as your fellow masons admitted to. But that can be chalked up to no lodge have the exact same practices, which does make for an easy excuse to say 'not in my lodge it doesn't.'

Neither did you know about the Roman association of operative masonry, which I quoted from living members mind you

At every turn you merely call foul and yet are shown to be either uninformed or attempting to deflect the situation.

I don't know where you got the idea I don't use public books as I have quoted from Hall, Steinmetz, and Mackley among others. However you are right about the rituals and internal workings of masonry which I do not know as it really comes across as a load BS bureaucracy which I have little patience for.

reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli

I never said that I didn't know about the coffin. Now you're making assumptions. I said that not every jurisdiction may practice the same symbols.

You seem to be making loose use of Masonic terminology. Every Lodge doesn't create its own ritual. The Grand Lodge establishes the ritual to be used and each Lodge under their jurisdiction must act in accordance with those establishments.

I knew of the theory. You miss a great deal of what I write as I said earlier on that I have a friend who is writing a paper on early Masonry in England and its historical origins with the Comacine Builders and the Roman Collegia. It's okay, maybe one day you'll take the blinders off.

At every turn you merely call foul and yet are shown to be either uninformed or attempting to deflect the situation.

I don't know where you got the idea I don't use public books as I have quoted from Hall, Steinmetz, and Mackley among others. However you are right about the rituals and internal workings of masonry which I do not know as it really comes across as a load BS bureaucracy which I have little patience for.

No, you made statements from which I asked if you could back it up with ritual and you quote public books which are irrelevant to the ritual of Freemasonry. I ask for fact and you gave me opinion.

reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli

Variation in the ritual doesn't mean that Brothers aren't aware of what goes on in other Lodges. Brothers who have traveled to Lodges in Jurisdictions that are in amity with their own certainly become aware of some differences, also occasionally degrees of other rites are emulated for educational purposes in a Lodge setting. I have sat in foreign Lodges meeting in a Language that I am not fluent, and I understand the ritual even though some small differences exist.

Originally posted by FriedBabelBroccoli
So now you show your true colors NetworkDude

Originally posted by network dude

So here you are, thinking you are such a smart little girl, yet you fail to comprehend that there are differences.

Once you realized your ignorance you resort to calling me names . . . Okay BIG GUY.

I am very, very sorry if I mis-interpreted your gender. You seem to have at least some interest in Freemasonry and I would assume if you were a male, you would join to actually know instead of guess. Plus you mentioned being hit on by Freemasons. So either you were at a gay bar, or you are a woman. While there are gay Freemasons, I don't believe that is the norm.

Again, very sorry Dude. Hang tough and don't let things bother you so much BIG GUY.

Originally posted by Hardwired
Luciferianism is just silly.

Most of us are just as confused as you are about this. I guess you have to be WAYYYYY up the ladder to go from believing in God to changing over to Lucifer. Although that in and of itself just seems to not make any sense.

It almost seems so fantastic, it's made up?d But if it's on You Tube, it's got to be true.

Originally posted by John_Rodger_Cornman
Why do masons get angry at people researching their beliefs?

Whats the problem? Its not like your disrespecting them or anything.

Great question - I think it's a form of intellectual elitism, feeding the ego to the point of self-professed godhood. They simply don't want the plebs knowing because it will diminish the razzle-dazzle that woos so many. I met with the man being groomed to be Grandmaster of the Dublin Lodge and it was clear from speaking with him that he loved the idea of the glory, the fancy dress and pompous ceremony that just makes him 'feel good, feel important' - his words. Calling themselves Grandmaster's and Sovereign Inspectors because they believe they know secrets about god and the universe - they couldn't do that if every old Joe-soap knew them but thankfully the internet has blown that wide open and there are things being discovered that Masons can no longer deny. Morals and Dogma springs to mind.


J.P. Solas -

________________________________________

The Truth shall set ye free...

Learn everything you need to know about the Freemasons with this collection of rare out-of-print books, texts and manuscripts.

[www.secrets-of-freemasons.tk]
[www.freemason-freemasonry.blogspot.ie]

Originally posted by network dude

Originally posted by FriedBabelBroccoli
So now you show your true colors NetworkDude

Originally posted by network dude

So here you are, thinking you are such a smart little girl, yet you fail to comprehend that there are differences.

Once you realized your ignorance you resort to calling me names . . . Okay BIG GUY.

I am very, very sorry if I mis-interpreted your gender. You seem to have at least some interest in Freemasonry and I would assume if you were a male, you would join to actually know instead of guess. Plus you mentioned being hit on by Freemasons. So either you were at a gay bar, or you are a woman. While there are gay Freemasons, I don't believe that is the norm.

Again, very sorry Dude. Hang tough and don't let things bother you so much BIG GUY.

You see this is a BIG problem - telling people if they want to find out just join up? Masons think that because they go through the Blue Lodge and have attained Master Mason degree they have all the secrets - Masons even say that there are only really three main degrees but this is obviously not true. Telling people to join is very dangerous when you are asking them to swear a blood oath especially if at the end of the day it is in fact secretly concerned with the worship of lucifer - gives a whole new meaning to playing with fire! Besides we can find out more today from leaked materials than you would learn from years of Masonry and by then you're in so deep you can't remember where you were when you went in. How can a Mason claim to know the secrets without having read Morals and Dogma by Albert Pike and yet still claim that the upper degrees don't teach the worship of the Biblical character 'Lucifer' known by many today as Satan. I'm sorry but I am not going to take the word of a mere Master Mason over the most revered and respected man in Scottish Rite Freemasonry.

And what did HE say?
"The Blue Degrees are but the outer court or portico of the Temple. Part of the symbols are displayed there to the Initiate, but he is intentionally misled by false interpretations. It is not intended that he shall understand them; but it is intended that he shall imagine he understands them. Their true explication is reserved for the Adepts, the Princes of Masonry" (Morals and Dogma, p.819)

“[Freemasons] worship a God, but it is the God that one adores without superstition. To you Sovereign Grand Inspectors General, we say this, that you may repeat it to the Brethren of the 32nd, 31st and 30th degrees - The Masonic religion should be, by all of us initiates of the high degrees, maintained in the purity of the Luciferian doctrine...." (Occult Theocrasy, p.220-221)

Now if you disagree with this, you are not disagreeing with me, you are disagreeing with Pike himself so you should therefore produce better citations from a more respected Freemason - or you can accept the real truth staring right at you: the 'light of Freemasonry' is:

"Lucifer, the Light-bearer! Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit of Darkness! Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who bears the Light, and with its splendors intolerable blinds feeble, sensual, or selfish Souls? Doubt it not!" (Morals and Dogma, p.321)

"Albert Pike remains today an inspiration for Masons everywhere. His great book Morals and Dogma endures as the most complete exposition of Scottish Rite philosophy. He will always be remembered and revered as the Master Builder of the Scottish Rite." (The House of the Temple of the Supreme Council 1988)

And I don't mean to offend but I have to be blunt, I don't think that the real Freemasons, those who are really in the know would be frequenting conspiracy forums. What was that old one: "those who know don't speak, those who speak don't know" - Just one more thing Morals and Dogma was never intended to be available to the public but you can now access it online, the ball of secrets and deceit is unraveling quite rapidly now, and it seems that there are none more deceived than lower initiate Masons as they are being tricked into lucifer worship. It would be folly for any Mason below the 31st degree to believe that they know more than Pike did, that they know better than he did and they don't need any non-masons trying to tell them otherwise. Well, that's quite sad. The evidence is there if you care to see it.


J.P. Solas -

______________________________________

The Truth shall set ye free... Learn everything you need to know about the Freemasons with this collection of rare out-of-print books, texts and manuscripts.

[www.secrets-of-freemasons.tk]
[www.freemason-freemasonry.blogspot.ie]

reply to post by jpsolas

if at the end of the day it is in fact secretly concerned with the worship of lucifer

How can one worship Lucifer so secretly that even they don't know?

So, you join up, you go along until they mention Lucifer, and then you say, "What? Nope, sorry, I'm out, see ya." It isn't that hard? We ask the candidates at every step of the way if they are still willing to continue, and if this is an act of their own free will and accord. We ask it repeatedly. If at anytime they feel uncomfortable, they can walk away.

If we actually worshipped Lucifer, then I think we would know.

Now, I don't believe any of the ridiculous theories out there, but even if they were true, and even if some elite group at the top did worship Lucifer, and even if my $70 per year fed a few bucks to their Lucifer worship, it doesn't mean I worship Lucifer, it just means they do. In fact, there used to be the old rumors about Proctor and Gamble being a Satanic company, so by your logic, anyone that used toothpaste or shampoo was also a Satan worshiper?

reply to post by jpsolas


"those who know don't speak, those who speak don't know", an ironic statement from someone who has so much to say on the subject.

Some of the quotes you posted are Pike, but others are a known hoax. One of the brothers will provide the info, I am on my smartphone and it's a pain to type on it.

I would hazard a guess that most if not all Freemasons on ATS are over 30th degree in the AASR. In USA all candidates become 32 degree at the conclusion of the reunion weekend.

Originally posted by no1smootha
reply to post by jpsolas

 

"those who know don't speak, those who speak don't know", an ironic statement from someone who has so much to say on the subject.

Some of the quotes you posted are Pike, but others are a known hoax. One of the brothers will provide the info, I am on my smartphone and it's a pain to type on it.

I would hazard a guess that most if not all Freemasons on ATS are over 30th degree in the AASR. In USA all candidates become 32 degree at the conclusion of the reunion.

To know someone in the biblical sense means to fornicate.

Perhaps those who know are insinuating something other then knowledge in the common english?

The book of Enoch speaks of a fallen angel of God who has been blinded in one eye and bound in the pit.

He is identified as Samiaza (samyaza)

The other eye is open (all seeing eye or crown chakra aka third eye) to see the failure of his endeavors.
The horns of Moses/Enki signify enlightenment or the opening of the crown chakra, the third eye.

Interestingly Saturn Cronus and the such are often depicted as bound.

Also interesting is that Osiris is also associated with Saturn and Isis with Jupiter, not necessarily the sun and moon.

The Sumerian tablet so often shown as proof of alien contact, the 'Sun' is actually a six pointed star.

Saturn is also associated with eating children which is unnerving when one realizes Moloch was associated with Saturn and child sacrifice.

Then comes along Saturn's Golden age along with Ea/Enki's teaching mankind civilization. Saturn is associated with constellation Capricorn the sea-goat just as Ea/Enki was.

More interesting then the Knights Templar being accused of worshiping the Baphomet which is merely a depiction of Capricorn in a magic circle.

The Templars claimed to inherit the knowledge of Solomon, Solomon's seal is the seal of Saturn (as evidenced by the hexagon on Saturn's pole) with the constellations surrounding it, when one realizes Saturn's connections with Capricorn things get interesting.

Also interesting is Saturn's association with the constellation Aquarius.
(Once and Future king/ Age of Aquarius anyone?)

There seems to be a very common interpretation of Saturn/Capricorn through the ages.

Now the association of the Freemasons with the Knights Templar comes into question.

They even have an Order of the Red Men which is what the Romans (Rome - Saturnia) called the Phoenicians who worshiped Saturn as Moloch.

Riddle me this . . .

Originally posted by Zaanny
Well here is a video of a Shriner explaining what Lucifer is to him.

People seem to forget that Lucifer was Gods right hand man. Until he crossed him.

He was an ANGEL.

That's right he was and still is an Angel - but carry the Biblical story to its full conclusion. A created being rebelled against his creator swearing to make himself greater than God and in opposition to his will. How does he become like God? Why he gets man, who was created to worship the true creator, to instead worship him. He was referred to as lucifer in his pre-fallen state but later in the Bible he is referred to as 'Satan' the 'temptor' and 'your accuser' - what does this mean? Biblically speaking Satan and God communicate and Satan basically tempts us away from God by feeding the ego with sensual desires - making man belief they can be greater than God if they simply accept the truth that Satan/Lucifer is the real god. Here's the thing though, this being is also referred to as the "prince of this world" in the Bible - he HAS power to make people powerful, give them riches and worldy desires - Jesus didn't question Satan's authority when he was offered all the Kingdoms of the Earth by him in the desert - because Satan has that power...in THIS world, in THIS life. But what of the next? Satan is the ego, he feeds the ego in this life so he can devour your soul in the next. He is referred to today as Lucifer by what some might call 'white-satanists' although this is a bit of a misnomer, the difference between satanism and luciferianism is in theme only, not in substance.


J.P. Solas -

_______________________________________________

The Truth shall set ye free... Learn everything you need to know about the Freemasons with this collection of rare out-of-print books, texts and manuscripts.

[www.secrets-of-freemasons.tk]
[www.freemason-freemasonry.blogspot.ie]

reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli


I understood that Samael was blind but I have never read any lore that he was only blind in one eye. Can you cite a source?

reply to post by getreadyalready


Don't you see? Lucifer/Satan is a deceiver and it's always been about our free will! He needs us to willingly but not necessarily knowingly accept his worship. Do you think people listening to satanic messages in music are knowingly worshiping Satan? Of course not he's a deceiver who feeds the ego i.e. self-hood, with delusions of grandeur - and draws people so deep into the ego that by their own free will they choose utter isolation in the afterlife.




J.P. Solas -

_______________________________________

The Truth shall set ye free... Learn everything you need to know about the Freemasons with this collection of rare out-of-print books, texts and manuscripts.

[www.secrets-of-freemasons.tk]
[www.freemason-freemasonry.blogspot.ie]

reply to post by jpsolas

He needs us to willingly but not necessarily knowingly accept his worship.

First off, Satan and Lucifer are two different entities. Satan is definitely imaginary, Lucifer might be also, but he also might be the light-bringer and savior of mankind. I don't know. BUT I do know there is no way to "willingly" do something "unknowingly?" That is an oxymoron isn't it?

Just for discussion points, even though I don't think they are really necessary....

Personally, I've read a lot about Luciferianism, and I kind of like it. It really isn't all that different than Christianity, except Lucifer supports the power of mankind to become God-like, instead of using Jesus as the vessel for redemption. Other than that significant difference, the two doctrines are similar enough that either one could exist in Masonry without issue.

Still, the fact is, Masonry does not choose any denomination of worship. It is impossible for the organization to worship Lucifer, when in any given Lodge we have Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, and Deists all participating side by side, and none of them are doing any worshiping, and none of them are discussing religion in Lodge.

If you were a Mason, you would realize the things you say are impossible.