Why do masons get angry at people researching their beliefs?

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posted on Jul, 4 2012 @ 09:46 PM
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reply to post by no1smootha
 


Unlike you I never swore a blood oath. And I think I have an obligation to expose evil works. The oath itself is full of nasty utterances.





J.P. Solas -
_____________________________________________________

The Truth shall set ye free...

Learn everything you need to know about the Freemasons with this collection of rare out-of-print books, texts and manuscripts.


[www.secrets-of-freemasons.tk]
[www.freemason-freemasonry.blogspot.ie]




posted on Jul, 4 2012 @ 09:47 PM
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Originally posted by jpsolas
reply to post by no1smootha
 


Unlike you I never swore a blood oath. And I think I have an obligation to expose evil works. The oath itself is full of nasty utterances.





J.P. Solas -
_____________________________________________________

The Truth shall set ye free...

Learn everything you need to know about the Freemasons with this collection of rare out-of-print books, texts and manuscripts.


[www.secrets-of-freemasons.tk]
[www.freemason-freemasonry.blogspot.ie]


Its voluntary. Nobody makes you utter it, and it technically isn't an "oath," it is an obligation. Sure the penalties for violating it include some blood, but we rarely hold anyone to that. I can't remember the last time we spilled any guts on the altar.



posted on Jul, 4 2012 @ 09:52 PM
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Originally posted by getreadyalready

Originally posted by FriedBabelBroccoli
reply to post by getreadyalready
 

To Getreadyalready

What exactly was the flaws of Christianity I was using to argue against masonry?

All you Masons accusing me of things I never claimed to be . . . based on what?

You are projecting it based on past experiences on these boards or simply can not fathom a non religious (dogma) type laying claims against your beliefs.
edit on 2-7-2012 by FriedBabelBroccoli because: 101


Maybe we are a bit jaded by past experiences of outrageous claims, but you sure are quoting a lot of scripture. Why use Christian scripture as evidence unless you are arguing as a Christian? To someone who is not a Christian, all the scripture you quote is just irrelavent, and the only way to respond to you is to point out the flaws in the faith. Nothing you are posting has anything to do with Masonry, but it has everything to do with religion?

*****
You know what? I have just gone back through all of your posts in this thread, and you are right. You have not used all that much Christianity in your posts, and you have not been all that attacking. Perhaps we are hyper-sensitive.

You have mostly referred to Zeus, Capricorn, Astrology, Baphomet, and Satan. To me all those things are just silliness anyway. I'm not really interested in the Roman Soap Operas. Satan wasn't even imagined at the time Masonry claims its roots, and Satan is still imaginary to this day. You already admitted in This Post that you are merely offering insight into our symbolism. That is fair enough. We use symbols and allegory intentionally so that any individual may interpret it in their own way. You are more than welcome to your opinion of our symbols.

It seems we hardly disagree on anything, and maybe I have been arguing for the sake of arguing? I think all of your "insight" is just silly, but then again you aren't stating it for the likes of me; you've already said that.

I'll stop attacking your notions. In my opinion, as a Mason, and as one that has actually experienced the degree work, and administered the degree work, and spent years absorbing the opinions of brother Masons, I think you are way off base, but your opinion is your opinion, and you're welcome to it.
edit on 2-7-2012 by getreadyalready because: (no reason given)



Freemasonry is itself rife with Christian and Biblical symbolism so it would be foolish not to look to the Bible (the book that Mason's actually swear an oath over) for guidance on what these symbols mean - when you actually read the bible in a non-dogmatic religious way you say the Freemasonry - for whatever reason - perverts the Bible...which is obviously relevant to the order, particularly the York Rite Knights Templar degree - if anything its Masons who are clearly dogmatic here and Pike himself admits "unfortunately Adonay (Jesus) is God too" - the perversion here is that Lucifer is equal in divinity to God. So I re-iterate, a study of Freemasons without a study of its Biblical connections is not going to merit much reward. Temple of Solomon n' all that like. It's Freemason dogma alright.



posted on Jul, 4 2012 @ 10:01 PM
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Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by jpsolas
 



He needs us to willingly but not necessarily knowingly accept his worship.


First off, Satan and Lucifer are two different entities. Satan is definitely imaginary, Lucifer might be also, but he also might be the light-bringer and savior of mankind. I don't know. BUT I do know there is no way to "willingly" do something "unknowingly?" That is an oxymoron isn't it?



So you think that if you sign a contract without having read it your not bound to the terms?



posted on Jul, 4 2012 @ 10:06 PM
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Originally posted by getreadyalready

Originally posted by jpsolas
reply to post by no1smootha
 


Unlike you I never swore a blood oath. And I think I have an obligation to expose evil works. The oath itself is full of nasty utterances.





J.P. Solas -
_____________________________________________________

The Truth shall set ye free...

Learn everything you need to know about the Freemasons with this collection of rare out-of-print books, texts and manuscripts.


[www.secrets-of-freemasons.tk]
[www.freemason-freemasonry.blogspot.ie]


Its voluntary. Nobody makes you utter it, and it technically isn't an "oath," it is an obligation. Sure the penalties for violating it include some blood, but we rarely hold anyone to that. I can't remember the last time we spilled any guts on the altar.



Just more typical semantics - what is an Oath?
Noun:
A solemn promise, often invoking a divine witness, regarding one's future action or behavior.

Synonyms:
vow - curse - imprecation - adjuration - swearing

If you have an orange, and instead describe it as an apple...is it an orange or an apple? A sworn obligation IS an oath!



posted on Jul, 4 2012 @ 11:44 PM
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Originally posted by no1smootha
reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli
 


I understood that Samael was blind but I have never read any lore that he was only blind in one eye. Can you cite a source?


Ah now I see the confusion. It is another name given to Samiaza which is Ouza.

en.wikipedia.org...


Ouza, also Samiaza, Shemhazai, Amezyarak, Azza, Uzza, Semyaza, a major leader of the fall from heaven in Christian mythology, he was also one of the angels that came down from heaven alongside Azazel to interbreed with humans. Ouza before the fall was of the rank of Seraphim.[1] In legend, he is the seraph tempted by the maiden Ishtahar to reveal to her the Explicit Name of God. Often it is speculated that a main reason for Azza's expulsion from heaven is that Azza objected to the high rank given to Enoch when the latter was transformed from a mortal into the angel Metatron. In Solomonic lore the story is that Azza was the angel who revealed to the Jewish king the heavenly arcana, thus making Solomon the wisest man on earth. Of the 2 groups of angels headed by Metatron, one of the groups, the angels of justice, were under the rulership of Azza, who at this time had not yet fallen. Uzza is the tutelary angel of the Egyptians.[2] The name Semyaza means literally "the name Azza."

Semyaza's sons, Hiwa and Hiya, by one of Eve's daughters, were so mighty that they daily ate 1000 camels, 1000 horses, and 1000 oxen.[3]

Azza, according to the rabbinic tradition, is suspended between Heaven and Earth along with Azael as punishment for having had carnal knowledge of mortal women. Ouza (Azza, Uzza, Semyaza, etc.) is said to be constantly falling, with one eye shut and the other open, to see his plight and suffer the more. It is said that he now hangs, head down, and is the constellation of Orion.[4]

It is also worth mentioning that Ouza was one of the major items of worship in the pagan Arabic culture, before the rise of Islam. Al Ouza and Al Lat (The Ouza and the Lat) were considered the Daughters of God and were prayed for. However, with the appearance of the monotheistic religion of Islam, the worship of any other god beside God (Allah) was defeated. The mention of Al Lat and Al Ouza was made in the Chapter of the Star (Surat Al Najm) [chapter no. 53] in the Quran:

References

^ Gustav Davidson, A Dictionary of Angels: Including the Fallen Angels, Scrollhouse, 1967 ISBN 0-02-907052-X pg. xiii
^ Ginsberg, The Legends of the Jews III, 17
^ The Zohar (Genesis)
^ Gustav Davidson, A Dictionary of Angels, 1967, Free Press


The Zohar would be the Kabbalah is a Hebrew word (קבלה) meaning tradition, which was handed down from exile out of Babylon among others. Thus the connection to Babylon's Ea/Enki the sea-goat Capricorn a.k.a. Pan

Also of note is the connection of Samyaza to Orion's Belt which is the constellation to which the great pyramids of Giza are aligned to.

edit on 5-7-2012 by FriedBabelBroccoli because: additional info



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 02:31 AM
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reply to post by jpsolas
 

In Freemasonry the Craft degrees are the most important and really are the pinnacle. The other degrees are not superior. Too many people equate a degree with ranking in the Fraternity.

A blood oath requires one to spill blood at the time of the oath, we don't. Nor is there any worshiping done within the Lodge and it certainly isn't to Lucifer.

There really isn't anything leaked that is of importance.

Nowhere in Morals & Dogma does Pike say we worship Lucifer. Occult Theocrasy is irrelevant.


"Lucifer, the Light-bearer! Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit of Darkness! Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who bears the Light, and with its splendors intolerable blinds feeble, sensual, or selfish Souls? Doubt it not!" (Morals and Dogma, p.321)

I don't see where it says we worship him. In fact you'd should read the paragraph preceding this one.

Albert Pike is revered in the Scottish Rite, but the Scottish Rite doesn't represent all of Freemasonry nor does it exist as the supreme authority over all of Freemasonry. They are but one branch in the tree.

reply to post by jpsolas
 

There is no perversion of the Bible in Freemasonry. Particularly in the Order of the Temple (Knights Templar), there is nothing but reverence for the Bible and for Christ.



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 11:17 AM
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Originally posted by KSigMason
reply to post by jpsolas
 

In Freemasonry the Craft degrees are the most important and really are the pinnacle. The other degrees are not superior. Too many people equate a degree with ranking in the Fraternity.

A blood oath requires one to spill blood at the time of the oath, we don't. Nor is there any worshiping done within the Lodge and it certainly isn't to Lucifer.

There really isn't anything leaked that is of importance.

Nowhere in Morals & Dogma does Pike say we worship Lucifer. Occult Theocrasy is irrelevant.


"Lucifer, the Light-bearer! Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit of Darkness! Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who bears the Light, and with its splendors intolerable blinds feeble, sensual, or selfish Souls? Doubt it not!" (Morals and Dogma, p.321)

I don't see where it says we worship him. In fact you'd should read the paragraph preceding this one.

Albert Pike is revered in the Scottish Rite, but the Scottish Rite doesn't represent all of Freemasonry nor does it exist as the supreme authority over all of Freemasonry. They are but one branch in the tree.

reply to post by jpsolas
 

There is no perversion of the Bible in Freemasonry. Particularly in the Order of the Temple (Knights Templar), there is nothing but reverence for the Bible and for Christ.


Seriously? I could literally give you a list of the perversions of the bible!!! Wow i think you need to go back to the source material.



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 11:21 AM
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reply to post by jpsolas
 




Seriously? I could literally give you a list of the perversions of the bible!!! Wow i think you need to go back to the source material.


You could give us a list of ways Freemasonry perverts the Bible? I would love to see that list, I think you are full of it.



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 11:46 AM
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reply to post by jpsolas
 



The Apocalypse, that sublime Kabalistic and prophetic Summary p. 321 of all the occult figures, divides its images into three Septenaries, after each of which there is silence in Heaven. There are Seven Seals to be opened, that is to say, Seven mysteries to know, and Seven difficulties to overcome, Seven trumpets to sound, and Seven cups to empty. The Apocalypse is, to those who receive the nineteenth Degree, the Apotheosis of that Sublime Faith which aspires to God alone, and despises all the pomps and works of Lucifer. LUCIFER, the Light-bearer! Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit of Darkness! Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who bears the Light, and with its splendors intolerable blinds feeble, sensual, or selfish Souls? Doubt it not! for traditions are full of Divine Revelations and Inspirations: and Inspiration is not of one Age nor of one Creed. Plato and Philo, also, were inspired.


Linky

Just to keep you honest. Not that a fine upstanding person such as yourself would KNOWINGLY quote a masonic author out of context.



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 11:58 AM
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reply to post by getreadyalready
 


You are quite entitled to think what you want, it's your choice. Although I must say resorting to a form of argumentum ad hominum says a lot more about you than I. I would prefer if you kept your irrelevant personal premises about me to yourself it detracts from the debate, thanks.

I am concerned with the Truth and I maintain that Freemasonry is littered with Biblical references, allegory and symbolism - this is pretty undeniable. However, when you compare these symbols etc to the actual source material you will see for yourself that freemasonry in fact grossly perverts the teachings of the Bible - you don't need to be Christian to see this, in fact it doesn't matter what you believe in to be honest that's irrelevant to the fact that Freemasonry warps the Biblical message.

"Every Masonic Lodge is a temple of religion; and its teachings are instruction in religion." (Morals and Dogma, p.213. The instructions of this religion requires one to be anti-Bible and anti-God whether knowingly or not. And again it does not matter what you actually believe, what form of god you worship if any - belief does not change the substance of this matter.

Take the oaths as but one example...a requirement of membership - it asks men to swear an oath by God that they will have their flesh cut if they reveal the secrets of the degrees. Firstly the very act of swearing an oath, especially a blood curdling oath, contradicts the prohibition on swearing oaths in the Bible, let alone swearing to have your flesh (the temple of God) lacerated if you expose the secrets. "Swear no oaths, not even to me." Secondly, if a man joins up, but doesn't fully appreciate what he's getting involved with, maybe he's joining to make business connections, further his career or to get away from the wife for a couple of hours a week, he might swear this oath on his lips but not mean it in his heart, he might be doing it vainly just to get in. If so the mason is taking the lords name in vein creating a catch-22 situation where the new initiate is bound, one way or the other, to go against the teachings of the bible and this is how to get in! and just the tip of the ice-berg. I really could go on but I haven't got time right now.


Peace



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 12:12 PM
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reply to post by jpsolas
 


everything we do is open to interpretation. If you don't like it, you don't have to be a part of it. For the members who join and have questions, they are encouraged to ask them and understand the answers given. If at any time a person feels they are going against their faith, they should do exactly what their heart tells them to do. Nobody forces you to become a mason. It's OK if you don't like it. Some other people do.



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 12:16 PM
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Originally posted by network dude
reply to post by jpsolas
 



The Apocalypse, that sublime Kabalistic and prophetic Summary p. 321 of all the occult figures, divides its images into three Septenaries, after each of which there is silence in Heaven. There are Seven Seals to be opened, that is to say, Seven mysteries to know, and Seven difficulties to overcome, Seven trumpets to sound, and Seven cups to empty. The Apocalypse is, to those who receive the nineteenth Degree, the Apotheosis of that Sublime Faith which aspires to God alone, and despises all the pomps and works of Lucifer. LUCIFER, the Light-bearer! Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit of Darkness! Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who bears the Light, and with its splendors intolerable blinds feeble, sensual, or selfish Souls? Doubt it not! for traditions are full of Divine Revelations and Inspirations: and Inspiration is not of one Age nor of one Creed. Plato and Philo, also, were inspired.


Linky

Just to keep you honest. Not that a fine upstanding person such as yourself would KNOWINGLY quote a masonic author out of context.


What's out of context? If anything you've just proven my point about perverting the teachings of the Bible which Pike obviously knew quite well. So what you're saying if i have this right -
when Pike says that for those in the 19th degree the Apocalypse (i.e. the total destruction of the world) is the culmination of (or ends with) faith in God alone...? Faith in God alone signifies destruction to the 19th degree mason...then what? I mean you're not for real putting this up are you? If you are I can't tell if you're trying to help me or go against me? Thanks though.

Go back and read the Bible, particularly revelations and realise what the real apotheosis of sublime faith is according to the source material.

And please please please guys - your sarcasm is nothing more than a veiled ad hominum attack - is it really necessary? It is getting quite weak. Don't make presumptions about me good or bad. My character is really quite irrelevant to this discussion. When you focus on that instead of the content it really starts to justify the OP's question. Why are you getting offended...?



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 12:17 PM
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reply to post by jpsolas
 


It isn't ad hominem to say you are full of it. You promised a list, and instead you came up with a couple of extreme stretches that are far from what you claim they are.

First off, you misquote Morals and Dogma, Here is a screen shot of page 213.

But on top of that Morals and Dogma is not a book used in any Masonic degree. It is just a book. It does not constitute the whole of Freemasonry. It is a book written by a Mason. I am a Mason, I could write a book, but it wouldn't mean my opinion of Freemasonry is the only opinion.

As for a man swearing an oath with false intentions, that is not a problem with Freemasonry, that is just a problem with that particular man. If he perverts his own word, it is not Masonry doing it, it is just him doing it to himself. Masons would not be happy with a man doing such a thing. In that regard, I guess I agree that it would be a perversion of that man's own faith, but that is just a bad man, it doesn't reflect on Freemasonry, because if he were caught doing such a thing, he wouldn't be allowed to continue in the degree anyway.

So, I'm still waiting on the list you promised. I said you were full of it, not ad hominem, but simply factual, because no such list exists. Prove me wrong.



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 12:27 PM
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reply to post by getreadyalready
 


I didn't promise you anything, I said I could write a list - never said I would. And to be blunt it is an ad hominum attack look it up if you really need to. An irrelevant premise about the character of your opponent

This is getting tedious now.



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 12:29 PM
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reply to post by jpsolas
 


Um, well, I guess you can interpret this to mean anything you want. But if you quote the old, "Pike said masons worship Lucifer" passage as you did, and not include the previous sentence that says "The Apocalypse is, to those who receive the nineteenth Degree, the Apotheosis of that Sublime Faith which aspires to God alone, and despises all the pomps and works of Lucifer. " then you are being intellectually dishonest. That was all I was pointing out.

If you think masonry is a bad deal, then great, don't join. Don't even worry about it. It's not for you. But don't think you can tell others what their thoughts are. Each person has the freedom to form their own.

I don't personally believe the Bible is a history book that can be taken literally. I think it's more of a guide to how to live a good life.

Each person has the right and obligation to form their own personal relationship with their creator. Personal.



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 12:30 PM
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Originally posted by jpsolas
reply to post by getreadyalready
 


I didn't promise you anything, I said I could write a list - never said I would. And to be blunt it is an ad hominum attack look it up if you really need to. An irrelevant premise about the character of your opponent

This is getting tedious now.


I asked you to produce what you said you could produce. Saying you are full of it is only illogical or irrelevant if you can disprove it. Sure, maybe it is ad hominem, but if it is true, then it is pertinent to the argument.

Write your list, and then I'll withdraw it. Until then you are full of it.
edit on 5-7-2012 by getreadyalready because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 01:12 PM
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Originally posted by network dude
reply to post by jpsolas
 


Um, well, I guess you can interpret this to mean anything you want. But if you quote the old, "Pike said masons worship Lucifer" passage as you did, and not include the previous sentence that says "The Apocalypse is, to those who receive the nineteenth Degree, the Apotheosis of that Sublime Faith which aspires to God alone, and despises all the pomps and works of Lucifer. " then you are being intellectually dishonest. That was all I was pointing out.

If you think masonry is a bad deal, then great, don't join. Don't even worry about it. It's not for you. But don't think you can tell others what their thoughts are. Each person has the freedom to form their own.

I don't personally believe the Bible is a history book that can be taken literally. I think it's more of a guide to how to live a good life.

Each person has the right and obligation to form their own personal relationship with their creator. Personal.


YOU might surmise it to be intellectual dishonesty - but as I have pointed out the full quote does nothing more than reinforce what I am saying - if it wasn't for that fact you would be correct. You are I believe trying to make out that I am intentionally deceiving people, no that's ironic


And you're still being ridiculous! Oh if you don't like it don't join and I can't tell other people what to think?!? what are you even talking about?! I think your getting a bit touchy all i'm doing is presented objective observations...no need to shrug, put your fingers in your and say...well i guess it just isn't for you then! Riiight...that's the conclusion here?
edit on 5-7-2012 by jpsolas because: extra added



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 01:14 PM
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Originally posted by jpsolas
I am concerned with the Truth and I maintain that Freemasonry is littered with Biblical references, allegory and symbolism - this is pretty undeniable. However, when you compare these symbols etc to the actual source material you will see for yourself that freemasonry in fact grossly perverts the teachings of the Bible - you don't need to be Christian to see this, in fact it doesn't matter what you believe in to be honest that's irrelevant to the fact that Freemasonry warps the Biblical message.


If Truth is what you are after, be sure you are looking at true representations of what Freemasonry teaches. Yes, we use biblical references. The Bible is of great importance to masonry. We only elude to the Biblical references so the individual can determine his own understanding. This is in contrast to organized religion where a leader tells you what a particular passage means. I think this is the main part of the disconnect with masonry and religion. You can still have your religion and practice the teachings of freemasonry simultaneously.

You feel that Freemasonry perverts the Bible where I feel the same way about some religions. I base my theory off of personal experience.



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 01:19 PM
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Originally posted by jpsolas
you would be correct. You are I believe trying to make out that I am intentionally deceiving people,


Look what I just did here. I completely changed what you meant by only quoting a portion of what you wrote.

And before you go on a tirade about what that Pike quote meant, save it. I get your point. For the love of God, please save it. I was only pointing out one of the oldest anti-mason tricks in the books. taking a quote out of context to vilify freemasonry.

God bless you brother.





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