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At last, The "Watergate" Of 9/11 :

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posted on Aug, 5 2011 @ 07:12 PM

DULLES INT. AIRPORT, GATE D18, the departure of the FAKE FLIGHT 77.
The REAL FLIGHT 77 departed from GATE D26, as always.

Balsamo, the owner of P49/11T, says the fake flight departed at a northern gate, D9 or D11.

I say it did not, but definitely at the southern Gate D18, and this has serious consequences for every 9/11 researcher, thus also for the pilots at the P49/11T forums.
Balsamo treats it however as one of the many little and big achievements of his pilots, while it is the groundbreaking event we needed to corner all these FOIA released "official" flight data, this is the simple and understandable for anyone, evidence, that they are all false.

This is the Pilots for 9/11 Truth main pages text, written by Balsamo, where he comes to a totally wrong departure gate conclusion :

Title : AA77 Departure Gate
Aircraft Departure Gate Positional Data Conflicts With Government Story
Latitude/Longitude Coordinates Reflect Departure Gate Other Than Reported :

02/28/11 - ( It has been reported that American Airlines Flight 77 departed Washington Dulles International Airport at approximately 08:20 AM on the morning of September 11, 2001 allegedly from Terminal Concourse D Gate 26 (1). However, the Flight Data Recorder positional data provided by the National Transportation Safety Board tells a very different story. --snip--
After adjusting a Lat/Long offset based on drift prone to the navigational equipment utilized, the positional data has the aircraft departing a gate further east of Gate D26 and on the north side of the Concourse.

It did not, it departed from a southern side gate, Gate D18, and I will show irrefutable evidence why, in the rest of this thread and this post.

This is his zoomed in, wrongly overlayed map of the D-Concourse at Dulles, with the (proved false) FDR lat/long datapoints overlayed in the wrong manner.
The maps are not identical, the overlayed datapoints map is bigger - -i.o.w. further zoomed in- - than the D-Concourse map, that's why a difference-error of circa 45 meters is introduced, the north-south distance between parked planes at north and south gates from the D-Concourse ) :

Original Size 935px × 580px :

The following four pictures are screenshots from that "AA77 Departure Gate" front page piece by Balsamo, as it stands already from 2 Feb 2011 with the faulty information in it.
I attended Balsamo several times on his error in his board threads about the AA77 departure gate, board messages and board email, but got vitriolic responses and then banned, so there is no other way to expose his errors and wrongdoing to new members, than bringing it to this neutral 9/11 podium.

Note that the wrong overlayed pictures in that "AA77 Departure Gate" page are all by Balsamo, and not by member Jan "tume" Zelman, who came at first to the right gate conclusion, D18, just as member Aerohead did before him.

These are screenshots from that P49/11T "AA77 Departure Gate" front page piece by Balsamo :

1. Original Size 1.335px × 1.022px :

2. Original Size 1.335px × 1.024px :

3. Original Size 1.339px × 1.022px :

Here Balsamo makes his serious overlay error, note the difference in elevation and eye alt :
281 ft and 13,664 ft in the original, INS-shift plots picture in the second screenshot;
294 ft and 15,933 ft in this third screenshot of the corrected for lat/long plots-overlay on top of that second screenshot picture.
You see nota bene the original INS-shift values shine through at the bottom of his "corrected" lat/long datapoints picture in the above third screenshot.
The lat/long data points are of course different, since you have to shift the original INS-shift erroneous data points back to the runways and other known taxi lanes, arrival and departure points.

4. Original Size 1.600px × 1.170px :

How on earth Balsamo ever could conclude to Gate D9 or D11 as the departure gate for the plane depicted in those false flight data from the FOIA requests, is a complete mystery for me.
If one looks at this above, last picture by him, one can say for sure that those two gates are totally out of range for a, shifted to reality, lat/long-corrected eventual next picture.
The yellow square M2 must then shift 3 or 4 gates to the right to reach D9, which means that the plane would have to break through the D-Concourse from north to south to get to the taxi lanes and Runway 30, when strictly following his southwards leading blue squared data points, after the plane turned south while taxiing.

How on earth could two intelligent Pilots for 9/11 Truth forum members, Jan Zelman and aerohead ever give up their first, rightful conclusion that Gate D18 was the real departure gate depicted in those, thus false, FDR's subframes lat/long data points?

It makes me wonder if there is an atmosphere of silent terror introduced at the members of those forums, i.o.w., "I am just a tenant here, don't upset our landlord" atmosphere.
There is such immature and childish behavior shown by the admins there, that it made me wonder sometimes, if we perhaps talk to "stuck in their teens" 9/11 researchers in possession of a heap of aeronautical reference books and links.
Mature people don't instruct their forum software to change links to ATS forums, Pumpitout forums and JREF forums into "funny" unclickable links, making it impossible to fast-read while clicking links in their forums.
I admit that a lot of good work has been done by those members there, but show some self esteem, guys and galls, don't blindly follow your leader, stay critical towards all new information, there is nothing wrong with questioning new data. Or old.
And ask for a tad bit more democracy in those P49/11T - forums.

This is the "" 9/11gate, "AA77" FDR numerology "" thread by tumetuestumefaisdubien (Jan "tume" Zelman) at the Pilots for 9/11 Truth discussion forum :

All fame should go to him. I'm just the messenger. But I'm just a tad bit more persistent in countering totalitarian and dictatorial website owners who can't bring themselves to admit an error in a reasonable time span.

Jan Zelman offers in the first link already a very precise plotting of latitude and longitude datapoints from the (now obviously falsified) FOIA released Flight "77" FDR (Flight Data Recorder), which is offset quite a lot from the real runways and taxi lanes.
At arrival late afternoon on 10 Sept 2001 the offset was +/- 250 feet / 76 meter in the northwestern direction and +/- 3400 feet / 1036 meter in the southwestern direction
At departure early morning about 08:12 a.m. on 11 Sept 2001 the offset was +/- 3000 feet / 914 meter in the southwestern direction and +/- 750 feet / 228 meter in the southeastern direction. Note that these are rough approximations, Jan can do a better job than me.

But Jan offers a simple and logical manner to correct these drifts and arrive at the real arrival and departure positions on the runways in that same thread. Just fit them into the runways and taxi lanes and their corners.

Note especially, that latitude/longitude data from real FDR's are very precise, and Jan Zelman took all his datapoints from the P49/11T member UnderTow his FOIA-FDR coordinates, and partly the ones send to Warren Stutt from Australia, FOIA released Flight 77 FDR, which we now can conclude is an "officially" falsified FDR, since 77 did not depart in that false FDR from its usual, for many years already, Gate D26.
That real departure gate of Flight 77 on 9/11, Gate D26, has been acknowledged by many American Airlines employees, checking as usual, boarding passes at the usual Gate D26 in the early morning of 9/11. They all swore that Flight 77 that morning departed from its usual gate, Gate D26. And the family of the passengers also admitted to Gate D26 as the last place where they saw their loved ones alive.

In that officially handed over, false FDR however, the false plane acting in that false FDR, did NOT depart from the proven normal Gate D26, but from Gate D18, as shown to us by its precise lat/long datapoints derived from the UnderTow's coordinates and also partly the first departure coordinates given to Jan Zelman by Warren Stutt, who decoded that false FDR himself with software designed by himself. That's three more gates and more than 110 meters eastwards.

This is Jan Zelman's plotting, with lat/long points derived from the UnderTow's coordinates and I compared them to Warren Stutt's decoder program, which have been checked btw against other decodes of the same (false) FOIA released FDR send to totally different FOIA requesters in other countries, and are identical to the lat/long data points in those FDR's :

Original Size 1.020px × 1.230px :

Read his post #6, he notes a few, in his eyes, suspicious planes departing from the north side gates around the same time that the plane at Gate D26 (the real AA77) departed. Around 08:12 A.M.
But he comes in that post to a wrong conclusion regarding the real departure gate as shown by the lat/long positions in the subframes of that false FDR the government handed out to those asking for it in FOIA requests, he suddenly follows blindly Balsamo, who wrongly concluded Gate D9 or D11.

In fact it is definitely D18, a southern gate. As Jan first rightly concluded.

Jan Zelman also came already in an early stage of his research to the same right conclusion of Gate D18 as the departure gate that is in fact depicted in that false FDR subject, their
""9/11gate"" thread :

but Balsamo talked him out of it, based on his own wrong conclusion of a northern gate as the false FDR's departure gate, Gate D9 or D11. He deducted that from his own copy of the (false) FDR's subframes, he said. And showed pictures to "prove" his opinion, which are proof itself of his wrong method, used to come to that wrong conclusion. Balsamo clearly overlayed two pictures with different dimensions, as you can see at the bottom text lines in that picture shown by him in his main page article. One with the lat/long data points plotted in as rough blue squares, and one of an aerial photo of Dulles Airport. They have very different dimensions, with enough difference to come to such an erroneous conclusion. He's about 45 meters wrong. A few meters more than the width of the D-Concourse building itself.
And when I politely attended him on his mistake, he changed his attitude towards me in a very uncivil manner, banned me begin of April 2011 for a month he said, but I still can't login there.
And childishly branded me as a Troll in all my past posts there.
The man has a serious attitude problem with anyone not following exactly his line of thought and his reasoning.

Just compare that same obnoxious totalitarian attitude of Balsamo towards nota bene Jan Zelman, on whom he based most of his information, to construct his P49/11T main page piece written by himself with that basic overlay shift error of 45 meters, Balsamo made in it.

You can read and see his attitude in this thread there at P49/11T,

"9/11gate, "AA77" FDR numerology"

Jan is clearly not allowed by him to hold to his rightful conclusion that the departure originated from Gate D18 south. See his post #39,
where he shows to Balsamo his rightful conclusion, with added picture
( ) that the false plane (falsely labeled AA77 by the FOIA released FDR) departed from or very near Gate D18.
Gate D18 south of the D-Concourse as the departure gate of the false plane in the false FOIA released FDR.
Then in a few more posts by a clearly irritated Balsamo, he pressed Jan to accept his, Balsamo's, wrongful conclusion of a Gate D9 or D11 north of the D-Concourse as the departure gate.

Jan Zelman, Post #39 :
EDIT: I've also plotted and subsequently overlayed this:

Not to support Mr. Stutt, but to show how almost exactly the pathway pattern fits the pattern of the relatively narrow taxiways, contrary to some of the latest Mr. Farmer's "ideas" about the INS in-flight alignments. And there's I think clearly the push from the southern side of the Concourse D is possible and could be quite logical, but definitely not confirming the gate D26. (and yes, to avoid silly notes, I did exactly adjusted the overlay picture scale to have exactly same dimensions as the original pathway pattern )

I have the impression from his above words, that Jan got himself a bit irritated too by the persisting of Balsamo towards a wrong departure gate, but did not want to risk a confrontation with him, knowing how he reacts on any too stiff opposition.

Post #41, the Balsamo irritation is growing exponentially :

QUOTE (rob balsamo @ Mar 1 2011, 10:56 PM) *
For the third time, see here.;#entry10795540

It seems only those with a verified aviation background understand this.

And for perhaps the 4th time, the aircraft should have never left the ground with an IRS more than 1/2 mile in error. ENDQUOTE

Jan Zelman : But I'm having not the verified aviation background and it seems to me I understand that.
As I wrote, I don't insist on the idea of the INS adjustment and I'm not insisting even on the south side pushback. What I insist on (- and that's why I mainly posted the picture to show how closely the pattern fits the needed taxiways pattern confirming relative exactitude of the positioning - contrary to the Farmer's brand new "idea" about the sheer "inexactitude" of the IRS when the plane is on ground (LT: must be INS, Inertial Navigational System) is that the answer to the question:
D26? is: No way.
(I measured the maximum E/W displacement of my pathway plot - derived from the UnderTow's coordinates - from the taxiways margins and I found

posted on Aug, 5 2011 @ 07:49 PM
this might take awhile to read, but looks good so fare

posted on Aug, 5 2011 @ 07:54 PM
Altitude above you.

Runway behind you.

Doctor in a V tail.

Pilots for 911 truth.

posted on Aug, 5 2011 @ 08:19 PM
You sure put a whole lot of work into this, glad I was able to help you get it fixed.

Its pretty neat to see how that other forum operates and how they changed your status to "troll" for continuing to argue your theory. I didn't see anything that would be considered a T&C violation here. You got a little snippy with each other but, that's it.

Guess they don't like it when you stand fast to your position and hold your ground. There's nothing wrong with that, so long as you are sincere in your beliefs and working to uncover the truth.

Hope you get a better reception here.
edit on 8/5/11 by FortAnthem because: Get rid of obnoxiously large quote.

posted on Aug, 5 2011 @ 08:59 PM
This is going to take a long while to digest.

Flagging, will be reading later.

Thanks for your contribution.

posted on Aug, 5 2011 @ 09:13 PM
One question without having read it all, if there were 2 flights 77, what about the red tape about the flight 77 that supposedly did not crash in the towers or anywhere else? What about the passengers, do they show up on the lists the manifesto etc. ?

posted on Aug, 6 2011 @ 01:02 AM
Discussing anything with the admin over at pilotsfor911truth is a complete waste of time. There is a deliberate effort going on at that site to misinform people.
edit on 6-8-2011 by mrwiffler because: brain

posted on Aug, 6 2011 @ 02:04 AM
While it is not surprising, it is unfortunate to hear 911 pilots for truth have currently sold out. I have not double checked all the data you have presented about the gate that the FDR left from, but it is a fairly simple analysis to reconstruct this. While the raw data of an FDR is not the most user friendly layout, if you have a legend and step through the information it presents in a logical and coherent manner. It does look like you have done this and arrived at gate D18 as the departure point.

The 911 pilots for truth forum should be the best point to consolidate the experts to debate the technical issues and arrive at a conclusion. By responding with vicious attacks and banning to reasoned discussion shows how they have lost the scientific method required to sort out this mess. If you did make some mistake in your calculations then they should be able to identify it and not disregard the whole topic.

There is a lot that is not adding up with 9/11 and trying to get to the bottom of just what happened at the Pentagon is one of the tough parts. I have made some video analysis of the pentagon security tapes that may help in trying to compile a case

posted on Aug, 6 2011 @ 02:32 AM
Well you finally found the proof of an undeniable illegal action just like the watergate affair where they were caught breaking and entering and stealing files and bugging phones.

So how long till Bush will be arrested and tried for his actions now that this "watergate" proof has been discovered? Is the investigation already underway and who's the prosecuter in charge?

posted on Aug, 6 2011 @ 02:56 AM
Excellent catch, Op.... and great analysis..

posted on Aug, 6 2011 @ 04:05 AM
wow, a bit speechless TBH.

at first glance a superb thread that needs further examination on my part, will do that once i'm done working my shift.
just wanted to thank you for taking the time and the effort to put this toghether.

threads like this, and members like you, keep me coming back to ATS.


go ATS and LaBTop!!

edit on 6-8-2011 by kn0wh0w because: (no reason given)

posted on Aug, 6 2011 @ 04:09 AM
reply to post by LaBTop
LaBTop is a hero and I want to say thank you for your patriotism and working so hard to keep what's left of America free, Sir. Thank you. We really want to see this scandal go to adjudication again.

posted on Aug, 6 2011 @ 04:20 AM
Even if this were to make it to the courts, who is going to take the blame?

If it did eventually make it to the courts, It would be strewed out for years an years! By the time anyone was sentenced there will be another false flag attack on our hands.(my guess) Just face it people, this is never going to be proven. Maybe proven in our own minds, but officially.. no.

Just wait for the next attack then we can start a "revolution" and ... idk about you but America hasn't been America for a long time. People need to realize this and either "revolt" against government or sit down and accept defeat! The powers that control this country are greater than you think, it would be like trying to put out the sun. Simply presenting a case that 9/11 was brought on by our own government will get us nowhere but the same place we are now.. "in the eye of the storm" Sure all seems calm now... just give it time you'll see.

+1 more 
posted on Aug, 6 2011 @ 05:14 AM
... Longest post ever??

Seriously OP, if you actually believe there's a case to be made in there, condense it. And while you're condensing, remember this -- if you leave a single loophole for a debunker, he will cite it as such and dismiss everything you wrote. It's been almost 10 years since 9/11 and the general public is still asleep. Only way to change that is to find more absolutely airtight evidence, which simply cannot be questioned. If you can't condense this into 1 or 2 pages of unquestionable fact, then it's useless.

posted on Aug, 6 2011 @ 06:41 AM
Hey, LaBTop, I followed some of the initial Stutt-decode discussions on the P4T forum and also this forum. However, I lost track of what was happening when I couldn't dedicate the time to keep up with it all. Missing a couple of weeks of posts makes it very difficult to stay informed.

Basic summary that I gather is:
Official Story: Gate D26.
You: Gate D18.
Balsamo: Gate D9 or D11.
Stutt (and Legge): Gate D26.

Do you know if Stutt has tried to debunk Balsamo's claim for G9 or G11?
Do you know if Stutt has tried to debunk your claim for G18?
edit on 6-8-2011 by tezzajw because: found the answer to my initial question.

posted on Aug, 6 2011 @ 06:53 AM
Holy crap! That is a mega post!

What are you trying to tell us? I'm not a pilot so, I had a hard time following.

Thanks for the mega post.

posted on Aug, 6 2011 @ 07:02 AM
Good news & bad news. I dont have to read your post to 9/11 was a complete inside job. I have done years of my own research. I do congratulate you on what appears to be very well composed and bullet proof. But in fact there is so much obvious evidence to show the craziness of 9/11 that I am still embarrassed today having bought the OS for almost a year. the bad news is that for all the work you've put in, it will go nowhere, apart from making a few people who 'know' the truth in 9/11 feel better.
I do hope that this effort you have gone to will help wake up a few more sheeple. Maybe we can offer cash rewards for those who read & understand your post? $1 for every person awoken to the truth. Because its only people power that will win this battle for truth.

posted on Aug, 6 2011 @ 07:11 AM
Had some badly needed sleep, I'm at my "information desk" now.
Ask away.
I'll answer the above reactions after this forgotten last piece, and after I post some needed extra info out of the FBI transcripts of the interviews with 9/11 AA personnel.

This did not fit anymore at the end of my short opening post :


Quite interesting threads and posts by Jan Zelman at several Pilots for 9/11 Truth forums :

"aa77" Official "impact Time" Proven Grossly Incorrect, FDR outcomes likely tampered with by NTSB :

9/11gate, "AA77" FDR numerology :

This is the "Readout2 Of Aa77 .fdr, Worlds First" thread by UnderTow, Feb 7, 2007 :
It is an incomplete FDR, so to see, since his subframe numbering starts at a much higher number than the one from Warren Stutt. We know now, that several other, earlier days flights, were also recorded and present in that false FDR.

Right-Click, Save As..
a77.2_complete.csv 18MB

a77.2_limited.csv 692KB

This file is the complete list of columns (parameters) read out from the raw file.
Columns.txt 1159 parameters/columns

These two files are groups of similar information from the complete file.


Only the two first links work, the others are defunct links to a Japanese provider, I think it was the website of John Farmer, years ago. Thus I now ask myself if UnderTow worked together with John Farmer on the earliest false FDR decode, or if he just mailed Farmer and got the data send to him.
However, those two are all you need from the earliest FDR decode transcript by UnderTow, latitude and longitude data are easily taken from the complete or the limited lists. That way you can compare Jan Zelman's plotted lat/long points to the false FDR lat/long data points.

The real complete, but now proved false FDR decode can be found at Warren Stutt's website, I have it saved in a safe place. If you are historically interested in the 9/11 truth like I am, you should safe it too. Google for it.

Warren provided as the first one this full decode with all the 12 preceding flights also available ONLINE.
That's not what Balsamo and UnderTow were propagating in the thread where UnderTow was linking to part of the Farmers decode. They thought everyone else should get a FOIA request for it, filed themselves.......

Luckily we have Warren Stutt and John Farmer who did publish all they had online, especially Warren Stutt.
Farmer got so pissed-off on Balsamo, that he took his website down several times, just to pester Balsamo back.

posted on Aug, 6 2011 @ 07:46 AM
Soo before I pump out more questions, did I get this right? There were 2 sets of flight 77 on that day with different passengers in each?

posted on Aug, 6 2011 @ 07:52 AM
Being followers and relying on organizations is what led to 9/11. I accept, as a given, any person or organization who achieves prominence in the movement is compromised. Pilots for 9/11 Truth WAS on my possibly uncompromised list. The other side us laying red herrings that will fail in court. Apparently, they believe there may be a court case, someday. Theories, like thermite, will also turn off more knowledgeable professionals. There are some who may not be compromised, but the sheeple need to learn not to follow.

Forums like this one are the source of the real 9/11 truth movement. The real movement is made up of millions of volunteers. I began posting 9/11 was a false flag, beginning 9/12/2001.

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