Modern Poverty Includes A.C. and an Xbox

reply to post by haarvik


You seem to miss my point: anyone who benefits from the financial industry in any way does so at taxpayer expense. You have bank stocks in your portfolio? The reason they do well is that they get taxpayer money loaned to them at near zero interest rates, and they charge 30% or more on most of their credit.

Your mortgage rate is taxpayer supported.

What I'm trying to get through to you is that if you are at all well-to-do, you probably receive more government benefits in direct and indirect ways than you pay in in taxes. The richer you are, the more likely that is true.

An employer gets more benefit from the road sytem than an unemployed person gets by far.

A rich or well-to-do person gets more benefit from the Coast Guard, National Parks system, and the SBA than a poor person does.

If you support such wastes as the TSA, DHS, the wars on words and the world's largest prison poplulation you shouldn't complain about welfare, because ultimately those agencies, wars and prisons are just feel-good things that serve no real useful purpose other than to make a few folks feel, but not be safer.

Don't begrudge others receiving a fraction of what you take every day.

I think the Christians have a saying about removing the lumber from your eye before worrying about the mote in someone else's, or something like that. It applies here.

Originally posted by Janky Red

Originally posted by macman

The Govt 'helps' because they want more control.

The government is mostly populated with people who have very little control of anything they do
within the confines of their position. The government helps because of opinions that are expressed in this thread.
The government will stop helping if people like you are able to pull it off politically... I am not sure what you guys want... Can you explain???

Waxing the light fantastic about theory is nice and all, but in the real world, thinking that the Govt is just now autonomous is pretty amusing.

The People in Govt 'help' because it provides them political security and more control over those people. They know this and exploit it at every turn.
It is now help anyways. Giving to people what was taken from others is not help.
When I volunteer or physically take money out of my pocket is helping.

reply to post by macman


Though I can barley provide for my own if I knew you needed help I would share what little I have with you even if you didn't ask for it. I understand being proud I am a proud person myself and maybe that's what we need is more people who feel a sense of pride in being capable and willing. None of us are an island. The suffering of anyone of us pulls the rest of us just a little closer to the darkness. I know that many of us try and get one over when ever we can but I believe we are better than that. I can not change those who will not but I can set an example for those who would if they knew there was another way.

Originally posted by macman

Originally posted by Janky Red

Originally posted by macman

so many assumptions

.....

The premise of this thread is based upon so many assumptions.

your position has consitently taken on the role of assuming that recipients of assistance are
sitting in a pile of poop eating Cheetos. What you fail to understand is, most of us are here opposing
you because we assume that the people who are in good faith should not be slandered and ridiculed
because you make large sweeping assumptions of association. I have never recieved welfare, nor has my
family, but I do understand that life can dish out a car accident and cancer to the same family in the same week.
You name it and it can happen... so many assumptions indeed

No, I assume nothing in what they are doing at home.
My money, not yours.
If I want to help, I have a choice. MY choice. Not the huge machine that Govt has turned into.
The failure or misfortunes of others it not my concern. My failures or misfortune are none of yours either. Period.
Instead of worrying about what others are doing, have or don't have, why don't you focus on yourself.
I am tired of being told I have to take care of others and/or the Govt needs to as well.
Be responsible for yourself.

I am responsible for myself, you are too, ALL my neighbors are too...

You are ignoring the costs of poverty... Which in business terms are called externalities... Your community
is better off exactly because you do not have deal with extreme poverty. You have NO idea how good you have it because the SHANTY town does not exist here. But will you admit it? Are you smart enough to comprehend?
I assume you are...

Real estate prices,business, police, burial, child services, ambulances and the most expensive, imprisonment. It is not magic that America is not like Calcutta - Calcutta sucks because they pay for the expense of abject poverty which is corrosive and expensive to manage, it severly decreases revenue too. But you have the easy
position of the mindless 90 year old grouchy man, no thought to speak of... Just emotional rattlings about
the no good people who are all the same, based upon their circumstance.

BILLIONAIRES have mastered to art of externalities, it is funny you do not want to see a component of success,
which also gives America its leading position in the world. Addressing homelessness and hunger is a sound
financial proposition for all of us

In economics, an externality (or transaction spillover) is a cost or benefit, not transmitted through prices,[1] incurred by a party who did not agree to the action causing the cost or benefit. A benefit in this case is called a positive externality or external benefit, while a cost is called a negative externality or external cost.
In these cases in a competitive market, prices do not reflect the full costs or benefits of producing or consuming a product or service. Producers and consumers may either not bear all of the costs or not reap all of the benefits of the economic activity, and too much or too little of the good will be produced or consumed in terms of overall costs and benefits to society. For example, manufacturing that causes air pollution imposes costs on the whole society, while fire-proofing a home improves the fire safety of neighbors. If there exist external costs such as pollution, the good will be overproduced by a competitive market, as the producer does not take into account the external costs when producing the good. If there are external benefits, such as in areas of education or public safety, too little of the good would be produced by private markets as producers and buyers do not take into account the external benefits to others. Here, overall cost and benefit to society is defined as the sum of the economic benefits and costs for all parties involved.

I give up. A leftist is a leftist is a leftist. They only see their plight and justify their sponging of the system rather than pick themselves up by their big boy pants and accepting responsibility for their lives. Of course the right is the right is the right. Same story only in reverse. This battle has raged for eons because of human nature. As long as there is any sort of monetary system this is what it will be like. Heck, we don't even have to have money for it to be like this. As long as one has more than another there will be envy and a justification as to why it should be shared. The only way to overcome it would be to have a communal society, which of course we know doesn't work. Sooner or later someone will become jealous and it all starts once again.

Game over, nothing to see here, move on folks...watch the guy in the red pants...

Originally posted by macman

Originally posted by Janky Red

Originally posted by macman

The Govt 'helps' because they want more control.

The People in Govt 'help' because it provides them political security and more control over those people.

Not really, thats a fake arguement. They are not safe from your vote... Their position provides political insecurity
too... They help because they have my perspective and not yours? It is not that complicated,
you seem compelled to , again... demonize another thing you disapprove of. Welfare money, buys food, which
is required to survive, which does help.


You guys are the ones who want to control the approved appliances and diets... Did you notice that? You guys want to control the system more so... Do you want to grow, Or are you here to remain the same?

reply to post by haarvik


And a selfishly, willfully ignorant person who refuses to acknowledge either the social benefit he receives or the social debt he owes isn't a citizen of the nation he inhabits, just a freeloader who measures everything with a twisted scale that curries his impoverished delusions.

Or just a sociopath.

Or both.

Originally posted by haarvik
reply to post by DZAG Wright

 

Again you miss the point, which is exactly what people like you do. It has nothing to do with the fact that someone lost their job and now must get assistance. It has to do with those who do receive it and then waste their money on things they should not be buying and providing for their family. It has to do with taking some responsibility for your life/choices/actions. It has to do with people defrauding the system instead of using it as it was intended to be used.

When I lived in NC, my uncle knew a guy who was a millionaire and lived in an exclusive community. Every morning he would get up, put on nasty clothing and drive his beamer to a parking lot. He would then pan handle and beg for money. He made more that way than he did working. Why? Because a gift under $10k is not taxable. He paid no income tax because all his money was given to him. So when I see someone standing on a corner, or in the median of traffic begging and smoking a cigarette or talking on a cell phone, I think of that guy. Sorry, but I have to believe if one is doing it, then there are more.

You're still missing the point.....WHY do you make this your concern:

So when I see someone standing on a corner, or in the median of traffic begging and smoking a cigarette or talking on a cell phone, I think of that guy. Sorry, but I have to believe if one is doing it, then there are more.

Why does that bother you so much? What makes you want to be the "personal responsibilities" police? Does it cause you physical agony to see someone get something easier than you? If your answer to this is "yes", you have to look in yourself and find out what ailment you're inflicted with. The modern title we have for this type thing is "haterism".

reply to post by haarvik


The real problem with the far right (besides a predilection for fascism) is cognitive dissonance: the inability to see things that are connected as connected. It is 30+ years of "free trade," deregulation, the IMF, World Bank and other cartels) which have driven the concept of "globalization" to the point where there are FAR fewer jobs paying at or above the poverty line, then there are people who need to work and support themselves and their families. Couple that with the inflation on food, energy, shelter and medicine, and you have a recipe for TSHTF.

You are not an island.

Originally posted by haarvik
I give up. A leftist is a leftist is a leftist. They only see their plight and justify their sponging of the system rather than pick themselves up by their big boy pants and accepting responsibility for their lives. Of course the right is the right is the right. Same story only in reverse. This battle has raged for eons because of human nature. As long as there is any sort of monetary system this is what it will be like. Heck, we don't even have to have money for it to be like this. As long as one has more than another there will be envy and a justification as to why it should be shared. The only way to overcome it would be to have a communal society, which of course we know doesn't work. Sooner or later someone will become jealous and it all starts once again.

Game over, nothing to see here, move on folks...watch the guy in the red pants...

Again... I have not sponged off the system... Something tells me you are having fun banging your head against the wall. We had a complete argeement on the nature of assistance yet you completely ignored it.

I personally think America is the best place on Earth, maybe you wil have the fortitude to visit places without
any assistance and see if you want that here. You think extreme poverty is a contained situation? You think
you will not be effected by it? Go take a trip to Mexico City and see for yourself how those big boy pants fit.
I doubt you are going to have to nerve to get anywhere near where the big boys roam. It is like three dollar bills
in here.. the guy in the bar who reckons he can beat everyone up at once...

I dare you to go to nations without assistance and visit the results. You won't, because you don't crave awareness and it's horrible, completely horrible. there is no honor in perpetuating that situation

Those places pay for the poverty... We thrive because of the lack of it

Originally posted by dolphinfan
Some interesting data about the "poor" in America. Depite the news reports of America's poor living in shanty towns and tent cities, the reality is far different.

"Data from the Department of Energy and other agencies show that the average poor family, as defined by Census officials:

● Lives in a home that is in good repair, not crowded, and equipped with air conditioning, clothes washer and dryer, and cable or satellite TV service.

● Prepares meals in a kitchen with a refrigerator, coffee maker and microwave as well as oven and stove.

● Enjoys two color TVs, a DVD player, VCR and — if children are there — an Xbox, PlayStation, or other video game system.

● Had enough money in the past year to meet essential needs, including adequate food and medical care."

www.heritage.org...

A few relevant statistics percentage of "poor" folks who have various items

65.1% have more than one TV
63%.7 have cable or satellite TV
54.5 have a cell phone
49.3 have a non-portable stereo
38% have a PC
29.3% have internet service
29.3% have a video gaming system

Lets not suggest that folks are not having difficulty maintaining their lifestyle during these economic hard times.

Lets stop with the nonsense that someone with two TVs, cable TV and video games is poor. These are the folks who receive tax payer subsidies, what the left calls a "safety net".

I doubt that most tax payers would consider satellite TVs and cell phones vital components of the social safety net. Most would consider food, medical care, clothes and housing a safety net.

Its time to call what the current debate is all about and that is about redistributionism and socialism. Is it any wonder that the minority of folks who pay the taxes in this country don't want to pay more?

Its about time we had an honest discussion about what the objectives of our social policy are really all about because the current one, the one we have employeed since the Great Society in the 60s has been plain old socialism. The debate today is all about how far we want to extend it.

NoSacrificeNoFreedom
This is obviously a ploy to once again try and strip entitelments for those poor who need it. Despite what devices
they possess we have no idea how any of them came about possessing them. I have donated old TVs, computers, gaming systems and cell phones to the needy as well as the necessities of life but don't we have to consider these things to be necessary to have a sane existance? Should these people be punished because of where they live, who bore them or what tough brakes they may have had? Now that we are being affected by the poor choices of TPTB it seems totally unfair to blame the ones that are barely surviving. As for the redistribution of wealth, real statistics show that it is happening though not from the top down but from the bottom up! We have to understand that there are'nt plenty of jobs out there for these people because of outsourcing to countries where labor is cheaper. I guess what i'm saying is why are so many of us easily manipulated by progressive propaganda? The real problem is our leaders and the way they waste our monies to support their wealthy cronies! I understand it's alot easier to blame those that have no power to defend or inflict any harm on the masses instead of on the Elitist with all the power but if we don't try to change things then the middleclass will be the next poor people with no safety net to save us! We need to think with our hearts and minds instead of our wallets! We need to wake from our slumber, to act bravely in kind to the repressive tactics of TPTB whom are the real enemies of the tax payers of any class!

In 2009, I made $256,700 and some change. In 2011 to date, I've made less than $10k, and currently have less than $1k to my name.

So, in nearly 8 months, I've made less than $10k, and am nearly penniless. My previous situation however, afforded me the opportunity to live in a nice house, with TWO TV's. We even had cable!

The feeling that I get from this thread, is that because I have AC and a couple of flat screens, that somehow that means I'm not poor. Following that logic, I should be able to liquidate these luxury items, and not be poor anymore. Lets see, I can probably get $400 for all my TV's. That Xbox will certainly bring at least $150 on Craigslist. Holy crap, now that I've got that extra $550 in my pocket, I can start arguing for more tax breaks for the wealthy, y'know... since I'm one of them now...

What is not considered here, is the fact that a huge number of currently "poor" people, were not "poor" prior to the latest economic collapse. Hence the concept of 'economic collapse'. Many of these people have homes they haven't lost (yet), paid-off automobiles, X boxes, etc... The other thing they have, is NO INCOME. that pretty much makes you poor... trust me.

Not to mention, A.C. is simply not an option in many parts of the country. Hell, I'm in Colorado, and even here, the subsidized housing projects, even the $150/month apartments, all come with air conditioning. The ability to keep your home below 90* in August, is hardly a measure of wealth. Nor is letting your kids kick back and enjoy themselves on a third hand X-box the sympathetic clerk at the pawn shop tossed in while you were hawking your wedding set for grocery money.

It's plenty easy to play X-box in an air conditioned living room, and legitimately be poor at the same time.

Originally posted by dolphinfan
reply to post by DZAG Wright

 

Jump off the high horse.

Money = freedom in a capitalist society and the more money taken, yes taken, from someone by the government is a direct reduction of their personal freedom.

Money sent to the government is fungible. We have a representative government that manages (poorly) where that money is being spent.

This entire business needs to be looked at from a macro perspective. Of course I don't know that my $5 went to give Billy some assistance in a program I don't support in the same way I don't know that my $5 went to pay for something I do.

What I do know is how much money we spend on Billy for a given program and all of the Billys out there. Knowing that, it is quite reasonable to suggest that Billy has some obligation to live responsibly and treat the folks who are paying for his lifestyle, how ever crappy it is with a bit of respect. And, yes going out to buy a TV even if that TV costs $5 is disrespectful.

You rail on about judgement and reality one of the underlying problems in society today is that somehow judgement has become unpopular or anti-social. Of course I am going to make a judgement about someone who, by virtue of needing food stamps to eat and then buys a toy. Why wouldn't I?

Ahhh...now were really cooking with grease! I wish there were a psychologist available at this site because they could diagnose and articulate this much better.

The key phrase from your post is:

treat the folks who are paying for his lifestyle, how ever crappy it is with a bit of respect.

What is it in you, what arrogance or need to feel bigger and better, or EVEN the desire for indebtedness, causes you to desire this? At the best this is some type of sickness or character fault, at the worst this is the type attitude the old slave masters had when they did something above duty for a slave like throw him a bone with a bit of extra meat on it. The slave master may get angry if the slave instead gave the bone to the dog, he'd then call that slave ungrateful.

As I've said, NONE of us are in position to judge ANYONE! I don't care if you come from a family of Blue Bloods and never had to work in your life, or if you worked your way from shoe shiner to shoe tycoon. You and anyone else can take a fall and be the bottom of society. Unless someone can show me where if they and I are cut open, they have superior dna and different organs to me, they can never be any better.

You see, you've told on yourself when you state that you feel the welfare recepient owes you and other tax payers "respect". What you have is a evolved and watered-down version of indebtness and servitude sense of entitlement.

What I've learned is, the last person you want to do something for you, is the person that really doesn't want to do it anyway. Because that person will hold it over your head FOREVER, that one time they had to help you. There are some people who actually live for these moments, they are quick to help someone. Some people such as my uncle, really don't want you to repay them with money. They want you to repay them by ACKNOWLEDGING you are indebt to them. They enjoy being able to pull you to the side and say, "Remember that time I....". I guess it makes them feel powerful.

A true giver does so from the heart and doesn't worry about the pettiness you and others like you do. When I give a bum on the street change, I'm not worried if he is going to buy a beer. I gave because it was on my heart to give.

Until you are personally above judgement, you have no right to judge anyone else.

Originally posted by Ladysophiaofsandoz
reply to post by macman

 

Though I can barley provide for my own if I knew you needed help I would share what little I have with you even if you didn't ask for it. I understand being proud I am a proud person myself and maybe that's what we need is more people who feel a sense of pride in being capable and willing. None of us are an island. The suffering of anyone of us pulls the rest of us just a little closer to the darkness. I know that many of us try and get one over when ever we can but I believe we are better than that. I can not change those who will not but I can set an example for those who would if they knew there was another way.

Still, what you suggest in the beginning is free will of your own. Not forced by the Govt.

I am still responsible for myself and my family, no one else.

reply to post by Janky Red


Just so you are aware, I have been to third world countries. Columbia, Mexico, Jamaica, Panama. I know what they are like, and I also know what extreme poverty is. Don't try and be presumptuous about knowing who/what I am and what I have experienced. As I have stated before I have no problem with someone trying to better themselves getting assistance. I do have a problem with people abusing the system, and that's really what this whole thread has grown into.

I think we can all agree that the fed is bad, government is corrupt, and bakers are evil. We also agree that there comes a point where accumulation of wealth is just absurd. as a middle class taxpayer there are a lot of things I disapprove of that the government does. This thread only addresses one of them, and that is why we are discussing it. Throwing around bankers and super rich taxes is not a part of this thread, nor is it part of the solution. People like me (I see there are a number of us) see tax money going to drug and alcohol abusers who are only looking for the next high. Again, we generalize because that is what we have either seen or experienced.

If a dog gets beaten enough for drinking out of the toilet, he will quit. If we see enough of the abusers we want our funding to quit. It's also akin to a room of kids and a bunch of candy on the table. You tell them not to touch it and you leave the room. Someone takes a piece but no one will fess up so all of the candy gets taken away. A few bad apples spoil the whole bunch. Or in this case, a few abusers taint our opinion of the whole. There is no difference.

Originally posted by haarvik
Contrary to popular belief, millionaires don't spend money like they show on TV. Now I'm not talking about people like Bill Gates, or Warren Buffet. I'm talking about the thousands of millionaires who got their money the old fashioned way, they earned it. A true millionaire does not live a lavish lifestyle. In fact, you may even know one and not be aware of it. Did you know most millionaires drive a 2 to 3 year old Toyota Camry? Most live in a modest home under 2,000 sq. ft. They saved and invested and earned their money. Why do you think 70% of lottery millionaires go broke in the first 5 years? They didn't earn the money therefore they don't know how to manage money. How many stars and musicians go bankrupt after earning multi-millions? A lot. Oh they live large, but they have no concept of how to manage money and end up losing it all. Some figure it out and do well, most don't.

Now, you want to be a millionaire? Then you have to think and act like one. You have to be frugal and thrifty. No one is going to hand it to you. Being poor is not a crime, nor an excuse to not do better. Write down what you have to have each month. ESSENTIALS ONLY! Food, electric/gas, water, housing. Now subtract that from what you make. What is left is discretionary spending and not essential. For one month keep track of every penny you spend. At the end of the month look at what you purchased and identify what you really don't need. I would venture to say most everyone could come up with 10 or 20 dollars a week they don't truly need to spend. $10 a week is $520 a year. $20 a week is $1040 a year. Nice chunk isn't it? Now you have money for a rainy day or even invest and get a return. So you have to ask yourself if you can do without those cigarettes, or that case of Coke. Can you cut $10 a week from something you really do not need? An exercise like this can make a difference in making it or losing everything.

Think about it. I challenge you to do this exercise. It is an eye opener when you see what is wasted.

I won't do what you suggest because someone who does this is someone who forgets that our incarnation on Earth is just recreation.

The problem is we have too many people taking this game of Monopoly too serious LOL! You do know or remember that this physical life is just recreation? Why are you preparing like you're going to live here forever?

This world is messed up because it's run by individuals who have forgotten this. Actually, some know but are fighting their return to non-physical existence. They love this plane of existence because this is the only plane of existence (i'm aware of) that you can cause another pain. Hence, you have people desperately seeking the answer to immortality on this planet LOL!

reply to post by DZAG Wright

What is it in you, what arrogance or need to feel bigger and better, or EVEN the desire for indebtedness, causes you to desire this? At the best this is some type of sickness or character fault, at the worst this is the type attitude the old slave masters had when they did something above duty for a slave like throw him a bone with a bit of extra meat on it. The slave master may get angry if the slave instead gave the bone to the dog, he'd then call that slave ungrateful.

And yet you judge him. Judge not lest ye be judged...isn't that correct?

reply to post by haarvik


Glad to know you support dissolving police departments.

Lots of bad apples there, so that's a real waste of money, and a ton of savings.

yay

Originally posted by Janky Red

Originally posted by macman

Originally posted by Janky Red

Originally posted by macman

so many assumptions

.....

The premise of this thread is based upon so many assumptions.

your position has consitently taken on the role of assuming that recipients of assistance are
sitting in a pile of poop eating Cheetos. What you fail to understand is, most of us are here opposing
you because we assume that the people who are in good faith should not be slandered and ridiculed
because you make large sweeping assumptions of association. I have never recieved welfare, nor has my
family, but I do understand that life can dish out a car accident and cancer to the same family in the same week.
You name it and it can happen... so many assumptions indeed

No, I assume nothing in what they are doing at home.
My money, not yours.
If I want to help, I have a choice. MY choice. Not the huge machine that Govt has turned into.
The failure or misfortunes of others it not my concern. My failures or misfortune are none of yours either. Period.
Instead of worrying about what others are doing, have or don't have, why don't you focus on yourself.
I am tired of being told I have to take care of others and/or the Govt needs to as well.
Be responsible for yourself.

I am responsible for myself, you are too, ALL my neighbors are too...

You are ignoring the costs of poverty... Which in business terms are called externalities... Your community
is better off exactly because you do not have deal with extreme poverty. You have NO idea how good you have it because the SHANTY town does not exist here. But will you admit it? Are you smart enough to comprehend?
I assume you are...

Real estate prices,business, police, burial, child services, ambulances and the most expensive, imprisonment. It is not magic that America is not like Calcutta - Calcutta sucks because they pay for the expense of abject poverty which is corrosive and expensive to manage, it severly decreases revenue too. But you have the easy
position of the mindless 90 year old grouchy man, no thought to speak of... Just emotional rattlings about
the no good people who are all the same, based upon their circumstance.

BILLIONAIRES have mastered to art of externalities, it is funny you do not want to see a component of success,
which also gives America its leading position in the world. Addressing homelessness and hunger is a sound
financial proposition for all of us

In economics, an externality (or transaction spillover) is a cost or benefit, not transmitted through prices,[1] incurred by a party who did not agree to the action causing the cost or benefit. A benefit in this case is called a positive externality or external benefit, while a cost is called a negative externality or external cost.
In these cases in a competitive market, prices do not reflect the full costs or benefits of producing or consuming a product or service. Producers and consumers may either not bear all of the costs or not reap all of the benefits of the economic activity, and too much or too little of the good will be produced or consumed in terms of overall costs and benefits to society. For example, manufacturing that causes air pollution imposes costs on the whole society, while fire-proofing a home improves the fire safety of neighbors. If there exist external costs such as pollution, the good will be overproduced by a competitive market, as the producer does not take into account the external costs when producing the good. If there are external benefits, such as in areas of education or public safety, too little of the good would be produced by private markets as producers and buyers do not take into account the external benefits to others. Here, overall cost and benefit to society is defined as the sum of the economic benefits and costs for all parties involved.

edit on 21-7-2011 by Janky Red because: (no reason given)

Again, blah blah blah.
Blame banks, Kock brothers or anyone else, except yourself.

No, you are not responsible for me. This we are the world idea is nice on paper, but when implemented is disastrous.
Take care of yourself, I will take care of me, and then there is no need for you to take care of me. Easy.
The only reason poverty has a cost, is because it is taken from my paycheck and given to others.
The 'cost' is not to be shared, but owned by the individual.

Again, more worried about your neighbors yard, while yours goes to hell.