Survey time on ATS, what is more imporant to you? Tax Breaks for the rich or Social Service Programs

reply to post by MiloNickels


Yeah! That's what I'm saying!

reply to post by TheImmaculateD1
These are left and right answers, but I would take B for those who trully need it, not the ones playing the system. But in the end we are still going to loose because we will never get this debt paid off if they the ptb keep fudging the numbers the way they have been doing for years. You cant keep spending more then you take in and expect to pay off the debt and taxing the snake snot out of everything and everybody is just gonna make us more broke then we already are. Tax the rich everything they have and guess what you still have a debt. You need to live within your means so does the government its that simple. Until the government learns how to spend YOUR money we will just keep digging this hole deeper and deeper. Pretty sad.

none of the above
the rich don't need to taxed they need to stopped, We need to strip them of the power to Rob us and legislate that we have to do business with them via Big Agriculture Big Oil ,and The Military Industrial complex and the Prison Industrial Complex

then if the wages of your labor are yours to save or spend without corporate taking,most people won't need social programs they'll be fine on their own .

reply to post by TheImmaculateD1


Why allow yourself to be herded into a narrow debate? The government HAS to cut spending, from the global military empire to domestic spending, its all out of control.

People need to keep more of their own money. The idea that government knows how to spend our money best is laughable. Government is the most wasteful entity on Earth.

Once they stop devaluing our dollar and allow us to keep more of our own money, the American people could actually take care of themselves.

These threads are disturbing because they always miss the mark. The problem is not simply with individuals with wealth or power but it is always how they become absolutely corrupted and at the same time are absolutely worshiped by the masses.

America is a failed third world country run by monsters.

1/4 of the people do not get adequate medical and dental care.

1/4 of the people have a criminal record due to the war on people using
drugs www.abovetopsecret.com...

imperialist wars that murdered 5 million in southeast Asia
and million in the middle east
military spending greater than the rest of the world combined

the total destruction of the middle class

There is no such thing as a Fair Tax.
There is no need for a SUPER RICH CLASS.
Families should be limited to one child unless
above average in abilities.

It is too late.
America will continue to devolve.

IF YOU VOTE FOR ME I WILL .......

B- Financing social service programs by eliminating tax breaks and corporate welfare?

Middle america are the back bone of this country. Our taxes are being used to cut the fat bellied elits a break.
They said they needed it to create more jobs. Then sent all those other jobs to other countries.
We wouldn't need so many social service programs if the middle class was being paid effeciently.
Generations will not grow up to be dummies if the right amount of money is allocated to the free school system.

Middle america has taken too many hits for the upper class to continue to get rich while we get poorer.
If you vote for me MIVIDAU, I PROMISE TO MAKE THEM RICH SOB'S PAY IT FORWARD!!!!!
((This message has been brought to you by the latter B and the number 2)) I approve this message..

Seems to me that raising taxes on the rich and doing away with corporate welfare would be something to consider.

Why is it always social security and medicare that are on the table? Why not all the pork barrel programs that benifit no one but the politicians? How bout we cut back some of the ridiculous military waste that goes on constantly.How about we do away with some of the useless bureaucrats that waste money and our time. Better yet how about we do away with the politicians that put the money we give them in taxes, in their own pockets and the pockets of their friends.
What about not giving wads of money to every hole in the wall country in the world. When are they going to learn that you can't buy friends. Jeez we even give money to countries that don't need it.

Sorry ,I know this sounds like a rant ,but the ignorance and lack of real thought in our worthless government has really p#ssed me off. They are elected to represent us and all they represent is themselves or their party. As far as the politicians are concerned we the people can go rub rock salt. It's time to put a stop to this nonsence.

Originally posted by NoHierarchy
Flat tax sounds all nice and fair... but you fail to see the larger picture of PRICE versus INCOME.

A rich person has exponentially more ability than a poor person to purchase goods, start businesses, influence politics, afford food/shelter/medical care/etc.

So what, if you ever got into it with someone who sees the bigger picture, it's me so keep that in mind as we go along.

The PRICE of everything is the SAME for everyone, whether rich or poor. Government fines and fees are the SAME for everyone, mostly regardless of income. This is completely unfair. The flat tax makes NO SENSE in a world where the rich really do get richer, the poor get poorer, and increased wealth exponentially decreases struggle within the economy and with taxes.

This is, to be nice, a rather simplistic way to view things. If, for instance, the rich get richer and the poor get porrer (which has been said for at least the past 20 years, probably longer) then we would have a far different nation that we have.

Keep in mind... the poor need EVERY LAST PENNY THAT THEY EARN, so MORE taxes would be a terrible idea for the poor. However, the RICH (depending on the bracket defined) could increase their taxes to great levels and STILL live like kings. The way a flat tax would affect a poor person would be far worse than how it would affect a rich person. If you take 30% of somebody's $20,000 per year, that's going to hurt them FAR MORE than taking 30% of someone's $1 million per year.

It's not about how much pain is inflicted by the taxes. That is irrelevant until the levels get so high that we revolt. America is a nation founded on personal property and liberty. If you wish to break with that then be my guest but don't label it as anything other than what it is.

Unjust, by definition, so there's really no debating it.

People loathe freedom and equality. This is evidenced by human history, our laws, our societies, while at the same time (in recent history) we pay honored lip service to it in the most hypocritical (or perhaps ironic) ways. I, on the other hand, love it and want it in all things.

Taxes are a public matter; whereas purchasing ability, personal comfort, and lifestyle are private matters. The two have no correlation in terms of how the government interacts with the populace.

Last point, the poor stay and become poor (for the most part) because of government action and their own inability or desire to achieve a higher station.

Peace
KJ

C. Limit the entire government and reduce spending, Lower taxes even more.
Remove all lobbyist, bring our troops home and have them protect our own borders.
Remove all illegal aliens from our welfare roles and government programs.

Unless social security is going to be adjusted where people with phony "disabilities" are cut off. Example: met this customer where I work that is on disabilities for mental issues and has to take pills, yet she has a drivers license...if she needs to take pills and cant work because of her brain function then she should not be driving.

Give the rich a tax break, why? Naw I am not for that either. And no point in taxing them either, even though there are a lot of rich people taxing them would barely make a dent.

But what do I know about economics and finances....not my cup of tea.

reply to post by TheImmaculateD1


My answer is B. I don't know anyone who personally would choose A. That must mean I'm not rich and at the top of the food chain. LOL

A mix of A & B while meaningfully reducing DOD's budget.

Originally posted by NoHierarchy
If you take 30% of somebody's $20,000 per year, that's going to hurt them FAR MORE than taking 30% of someone's $1 million per year.

Math much?

$20,000 * 30% = $6,000 ..... $14,000/year in take home, that would be $500 in taxes per month
$1,000,000 * 30% = $300,000 ..... $700,000/year in take home, that would be $25,000 in taxes per month

That seems fair to me. They are paying the same % and sharing the same burden. And how do you know taking the $300,000 is going to hurt less for the person making $1MM? That $300,000 that the Government is stealing from him could have been used in his community, could have been used for capital projects, could have been used for charity, in his community. Not everyone that makes $1MM is a greedy bastard.

Now, the 30% you are using is, IMO, too high. The Government should learn to live on less, closer to 5%.

reply to post by TheImmaculateD1


Always choose tax breaks for the rich. That's the best way to help the middle class.

reply to post by queenofsheba


Which means we shouldn't blame you for not seeing the bigger picture.

I Vote B.

Naturally anyone who is of right mind and spirit would not want those on programs for assistance to go without.

But then again who ever said that Republican Tea Partiers (Fascist's) aren't like those behind the Gates of Sodom who cared less for the homeless and starving children on the outside. This really sealed their fate more then their perversions.

If these would do as their God they claim, should be doing, (Beattitudes) then we would know they are from the Human Family.
But I Fear they are of the Demon family.
That means they will Win for their Father is the prince of this World.

Not that I think that govt should be present in every aspect of my life but there are many people in this country that cannot even put food on their tables while the majority of the wealth is held by only a small precentage. I truly feel that every tax payer should pay their way fairly. It just dosent make sense that the most wealthy pay they least amount of taxes while the poor go without. I believe in everyone pulling their weight so I dont support handouts for lazy people but if there is a young family out there with both parents working, (one salary goes to child care of course) and that family still cannot make ends meet then a programe like food stamps or what ever its called now is a good thing. So wealthy people : Pay your way. And poor people: Pull your weight.
This is America, we can do this....

reply to post by NoHierarchy

.....A rich person has exponentially more ability than a poor person to purchase goods, start businesses, influence politics, afford food/shelter/medical care/etc.

The PRICE of everything is the SAME for everyone, whether rich or poor. Government fines and fees are the SAME for everyone, mostly regardless of income. This is completely unfair. The flat tax makes NO SENSE in a world where the rich really do get richer, the poor get poorer, and increased wealth exponentially decreases struggle within the economy and with taxes......

It would seem you really do not understand the US tax system, not that anyone does

The rich just do not pay tax unless they are really really stupid and I will try to show you why.

The first reason is corporate taxes are passed on to the consumer or employees. The company IS going to make a profit or they will move or go out of business. Do we really want more jobs killed???

The present tax system is what is so grossly unfair.
First we as people have absolutely no idea of just how much we actually pay in tax. I kept track of all the overt taxes for a year about fifteen years ago and came up with 64.5% in taxes I paid in that year. This does not include hidden taxes.

CORPORATE TAX PASS THRU:
".... last I checked (20 years ago), there were 109 different taxes on a loaf of bread before you paid sales tax on the loaf and carried it home.' - JB Williams

".... there are 151 taxes now in the price of a loaf of bread — it accounts for more than half the cost of a loaf of bread. It begins with the first tax, on the farmer that raised the wheat..." - President Ronald Reagan

Depending on how you do the calculations you can get anywhere from 30% and up on that loaf of bread. I noticed that no one ever bothers to include Monsanto who sold the seed, or John Deere who sold the tractor and implements or the grain elevators where the grain is stored, or the grain traders who bought the wheat and sold it to the milling company, or all the tax on the hauling companies that moved the seed and grain and the farmers equipment around or the interest on the bank loans, or the mining company or the steel foundry... gets real complicated doesn't it


The second point is that the rich just do not pay taxes like you and I.

Think about it -

The average Joe works for a company and has his taxes taken from his wages before he even sees the money.

The rich generally do not "Work" for a company they "OWN" the company. Now remember this means all those "corporate taxes" get paid by someone else. This means the CORPORATION owns the car, the jet, the boat, the vacation home (corporate retreat)

Here is a very simple illustration.

I own a small business (true) EVERY time I leave the driveway I make darn sure I have a business reason. This means when I go grocery shopping I stop next door and pick-up office supplies or something similar.

This means I can deduct ALL my fuel, maintenance and depreciation costs for that vehicle from my taxes. As another ATSer said, anyone with a small business who pays taxes has a fool for an accountant.

I earn half of what I did in the corporate world and yet I get to keep MORE money in the long run and I do not have to worry about being laid-off. That is the reason people are willing to put up with the headaches of running a business.


That is the first method of legally evading taxes.

...Second, high marginal tax rates encourage tax-shelter investments and other forms of tax avoidance. This is inefficient. If, for example, a one-dollar item is tax deductible and the individual has a marginal tax of 40 percent, he will buy the item if it is worth more than sixty cents to him because the true cost to him is only sixty cents. Yet the one-dollar price reflects the value of resources given up to produce the item. High marginal tax rates, therefore, cause an item with a cost of one dollar to be used by someone who values it less than one dollar. Taxpayers facing high marginal tax rates will spend on pleasurable, tax-deductible items such as plush offices, professional conferences held in favorite vacation spots, and various fringe benefits (e.g., a company luxury automobile, business entertainment, and a company retirement plan). Real output is less than its potential because resources are wasted producing goods that are valued less than their cost of production.... www.econlib.org...

ACCOUNTING SLEIGHT OF HAND

This is the second method of legally evading taxes. I know about it because the last company I worked for used it.

The method is to split your manufacturing between two countries. My company produced the raw material in country A, with a very low tax rate. The raw material was shipped into the USA where my factory made the finished product and sold it throughout the USA. My factory NEVER made a profit and NEVER paid a dime in income tax!!!!!

HOW???
By buying the raw materials at a price that made sure the actual profits were shipped back to the country with the low tax rate. The same type of accounting was used to shutdown the factory when the Union got a bit to "lively" They were able to "Prove" in court that the "Reason" for the shutdown was losing money and not as a method for getting rid of their only unionized plant. In actuality we were one of the most profitable factories but not when we had ALL the overhead for the corporate office AND R&D subtracted from our plant's gross income instead of the 1/10 share that would have been more reasonable.

I am sure GE and others are using the exact same "Creative Accounting Methods" to maximize profit and minimize tax.

AND now you know why we have "Free Trade Agreements" like WTO, NAFTA and CAFTA that opened borders and did away with tariffs. Legalized WORLD WIDE TAX EVASION.

The last method of "sheltering wealth"

It is really simple it is call "trusts" "charities" or "foundations" all the bankers set up "foundations" to shelter their wealth BEFORE 1913 and all the tax laws. This means their vast fortunes have remained intact and can be used to "buy influence" when and where they please. In this way they have bought power and influence not only in the USA but all over the world. UN sponsored NGOs are a prime example.

Carroll Quigley, Tragedy and Hope, Macmillan, New York, p. 326

When people of this class are stricken by guilt feelings while plotting world wars and economic depressions which will bring misery, suffering and death to millions of the world’s inhabitants, they sometimes have qualms. These qualms are jeered at by their peers as "a failure of nerve". After a bout with their psychiatrists, they return to their work with renewed gusto, with no further digressions of pity for "the little people" who are to be their victims.

www.apfn.org...

Definitely B. The rich don't invest their money here anyway.

Besides, we did great in the 90s when the rich had a slightly higher tax rate and we closed the gap on the deficit.

reply to post by TheImmaculateD1

It has long since been apparent that ATS is not immune from it's fair share of "Dumbed Down Brainwashed Fools", of it's fair share of the "Corrupt and Corrupted" or "Frog Impersonating Princes"but, I am convinced that Evil and BS can not stand the light of day so, I am going to post a crash course for you who simply want to know the facts about what has been going on in our country and who Obama really serves. But first, allow me to clearly state that I sincerely and with every prayer hope the Debt Ceiling is not raised and in anyway, shape of process that this Federal Government be cut back and shut down.

1) Overview of America (complete film)

2) American Tyranny Step By Step: Saving Our Republic (complete film)