Survey time on ATS, what is more imporant to you? Tax Breaks for the rich or Social Service Programs

reply to post by NoHierarchy

What you also miss out on is that the problem was NOT just the Federal Reserve and subsequent fractional reserve banking....

Oh I certainly agree. Anti-trust and a cap on the size of an organization would help. I am very much in favor of worker owned corporations - the best of both worlds.

BUT YOU HAVE TO KILL Fractional Reserve Banking!!!

Remember that Fractional Reserve Banking had been around for a long, long time before 1913. That is why you had bank - runs in the first place.

If you can print money out of thin air, and that is what Factional Reserve Banking is, then you can use that "counterfeited money" to build a corporate empire using an unfair advantage - STOLEN WEALTH.

You have to ignore the surface of the Unions vs "Corporate Barons" crap and ask HOW did the barron's get that wealth, power and political influence because to actually correct the problem you have to IDENTIFY the problem.

Factional Reserve Banking is the barron's unfair advantage and that is what I was trying to get across.

You have a Mom & Pop business built up using their savings and sweat (TRUE Capitalism)

and then you have a deep pocketed Rothschild agent who never earned a dime of the "money" he is using to build his corporate empire. (What the bankers what us to think is "capitalism")

...in this country there was a long tradition of struggle against inflicting a central bank on the American people. It had begun with Thomas Jefferson’s fight against Alexander Hamilton’s scheme for the First Bank of the United States, backed by James Rothschild. It had continued with President Andrew Jackson’s successful war against Alexander Hamilton’s scheme for the Second Bank of the United States, in which Nicholas Biddle was acting as the agent for James Rothschild of Paris. The result of that struggle was the creation of the Independent Sub-Treasury System, which supposedly had served to keep the funds of the United States out of the hands of the financiers. A study of the panics of 1873, 1893, and 1907 indicates that these panics were the result of the international bankers’ operations in London. The public was demanding in 1908 that Congress enact legislation to prevent the recurrence of artificially induced money panics.... www.apfn.org...

The War is NOT corporations vs Unions, the war is the individual's wealth against the financiers counterfeited money!


What I find really laughable is the rank and file "Progressives" have no idea of who their handlers really are.

reply to post by TheImmaculateD1


B. We have to face the facts. Our countries economy was at its best economically when there were higher taxes for the rich. We are now at our worst and taxes for the rich are at their lowest levels in 50 years. Obviously tax breaks aren't working.

Those social programs, as you said, have been an essential part of our country since they were created.

B.

Tax breaks for the rich are useless. Even if there was a 5% flat tax, the top 10% would still be paying over 50% of the tax just because of how much more money they make.

I'd even go a bit further and cap the most that you can make in a single year at $1M, after that you get taxed at 100%. CEOs shouldn't be making $30M a year while most of their employees are making less than $30K.

Originally posted by TheImmaculateD1
Time to decide what is more imporant for everyone right here right now.

This is a continuation on the debt ceeling talks currently being conducted stateside whereas the GOP wants to keep tax breaks, cuts and corporate welfare for the rich going while the Dems want to keep Social Service programs going like Social Secuirty, Medicaid/Medicare, keeping civil service workers employed.

What is more imporant to everyone here, tax breaks for the rich or maintaining social services which has served as our nation's backbone for nearly 80 years now?

A - Continued tax breaks, cuts and corporate welfare for the rich?
B- Financing social service programs by eliminating tax breaks and corporate welfare?

Stay on topic please and any post that tries to continue the "Left-v-Right" paradigm going will be ignored.

edit on 15-7-2011 by TheImmaculateD1 because: (no reason given)

Well I say,

That to be in service to man is the best the Allah given directive to give, and of self is furthermore a divine gesture. My vote is a big BEE(B)

Originally posted by dilly1
reply to post by TheImmaculateD1

 

Always choose tax breaks for the rich. That's the best way to help the middle class.

WHAAAAAAT

You are outta you're mind. They have been getting tax cuts since before the recession. Where are the JObs they promised for their cut's. In another countries middle class.....Those tax cuts have not helped my life any. Luckily we work in a food factory, so as of yet my job is secure.

LIKE I SAID.....
TIME TO PAY IT FORWARD

Wow, OP...I have to say...nothing like a FAIR and even choice when you make a topic.

Why didn't you phrase it as "Which do you want, tax breaks for the rich, or handouts for the do-nothings who want to live on handouts only?"

After all, to suggest that the rich are evil and unworthy, and yet, as opposite, put SS and Medicare people - most of which are retirees - in there is disinegenousness at best, or your agenda to push, at worst. The opposite of the greedy rich are the scum who want to suck up any handout they can so they dont have to work at all. And I can tell you that every day in America, the latter is gaining more numbers than the former.

But then this post will probably also get edited out, since you clearly dont want to level the playing field.

Originally posted by crimvelvet


The present tax system is what is so grossly unfair.
First we as people have absolutely no idea of just how much we actually pay in tax. I kept track of all the overt taxes for a year about fifteen years ago and came up with 64.5% in taxes I paid in that year. This does not include hidden taxes.

As we see here Crimvelvet is one smart fellow.

His post illustrates why the system is completely designed to
screw the poor and middle class and that raising the taxes a few
points on the rich is not going to have any significant effect.

The only point I would make is that the problem is not economics or mathematics,
but in fact psychological. Most of the people worship those with money and power.
We have met the enemy and he is us.-POGO

Reply to post by SilentNoise

What would then be the benefits to expanding a business under your 'model'. Absolutely zero after a certain point. And don't give me the hogwash of altruism and a CEO's care for his fellow man. Companies expand for more profits, expansion creates jobs, jobs give you and I work.


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

reply to post by TheImmaculateD1


Interesting, I would say both are unimportant.

And have very little to do with anything concreate but the power strugle of the haves, and have nots. And I see all there agents from both sides are out in full force in this thread.

Hey how about this! We get rid of tax altogether and all the agencies that thrive off it, and get rid of the rich also, and the middle men who don't do any actual function in society. And I dont want to hear all that mombo jombo how there wont be jobs without the rich, Yea right

You free there monopoly and get rid of them and others will replace them, the line for there "job" will be miles long. In fact it would be best to replace them every couple of generations before they get to powerful and turn this turns into a fascist states. Or are we to late for that.

And while were at it get rid of the poor also, and all entitlement's of both for the poor and the rich, so no more welfare kings and queens, and no more whiny rich people who live off the poor with there bailouts and all other scams they got. I could probably list them all if I wanted but it would be pages and pages long. And I ain't writing all that #.

But all that will be self coming because when you get rid of the rich you would of also gotten rid of the poor, since they are just two opposites of the coin. And the rich can't exist without the poor, and those who cant think beyond that paradigm are really part of the problem. It's obvious this whole thing is falling and has been obvious for a long time for those who had eyes to see, and ears to hear.

So like the phoenix, which is reborn from its own ashes. You might as well build something altogether new and better from the ashes, if not! Then its just a waste of time and effort to keep to the same old same old thing that does not work, # you all still arguing about the same # that they were arguing about hundreds of years ago.

I think it's time to argue about something new.

Also OP only two options! come on now, this is america the land of way to many options that don't matter, and hundreads of channels with nothing good on.

You can do better then this how's about 3, or maybe even 4 different options, or who knows maybe even 100 options, they say the more options the more better. Ya this whole thread is bull#, especially the 2 questions that were supposed to chose.

reply to post by boondock-saint


Ya it still surprises me when the populous think that the rich or those rich in the know actually pay taxes.

Loopholes eh, is that what they call there projects. Oh there so helpfulness are they not, with all the money they put in there "charities" of all kinds. That you would think something would get done, but nope stuff still remains the same.

Its really interesting to see there minions on this thread.

How about this.... you give all of us Libertarian types the state of Texas.... you guys can have the rest of it, and leave us alone.... deal? Then you can tax the rich and give their money to whomever you want as much as you want. But, you can't come and invade us or force us to give you anything... would you agree to that?

reply to post by Cosmic4life

I SOOOOO totally agree with you! Unfortunately, this has been a long time coming. People have forgotten that the "GOVERNMENT" works for US! We need to put REAL people, who have lived only middle class existences into office. OR ... perhaps the American people need to INSIST, that anyone in upper government needs to live no differently than the poorest person in the country. While in office, they will have clothes and such allotted to them. No servants, no special behavior aside from protection. No vacations, no nothing.

The outsourcing of jobs needs to stop, and people need to be prepared to purchase only American made items....period.

We need to take back what is ours. As long as people act the fat cow going to slaughter....nothing will change. Privately owned farms need to be allowed to come back. And Yes, whether it is civil, or world .....war is coming.

Lord help us...we are really needing it more than ever. Many are going to suffer because of the greed within our government. It's no longer about WHO's RIGHT and WHO's WRONG anymore. It's time to FIX the problem! NO BANDAGES WILL FIX THESE FESTERING PROBLEMS.

How about a third choice...

C: Force the effing government into not spending more than they make.

Then again common sense is an uncommon virtue nowadays.

Originally posted by SFA437
How about a third choice...

C: Force the effing government into not spending more than they make.

Then again common sense is an uncommon virtue nowadays.

How about no!

Tax the rich and you can afford to pay not only the bills but afford to finance social service programs.

Some of you folks amaze me.

Letting Congress and the President raise the debt ceiling IS A TAX!! EVERY PENNY OF THE MONEY THEY BORROW CAN ONLY BE REPAID BY OUR TAXES!!!

By allowing them to borrow more because they can't stay within spending limits established by the economic conditions GUARANTEES YOU WILL HAVE TO PAY MORE IN TAXES AT SOME POINT.

Please wake up - your snorring is killing me.

Tax the rich. They have made more money then ever while the middle class dissappears. Bush has tried the trickle up theory time and time again and it has led us to the Great Recession. Time to turn the tables.

This just amazes me. tax the rich, more social programs, yada, yada, yada. When will people ever learn that social programs destroy nations. Always has, always will. I have a better option. 10% tax, period. Rich or poor you pay 10% of your gross income. Everyone now days has the Robin Hood syndrome. Take from the rich, give to the poor. No matter what you do, there will always be poor. There will always be someone looking for a handout...you know, the ant and grasshopper story.

If you want more, then go out and earn more. And don't give me some lame ass excuse why you can't. I grew up in the welfare projects, been homeless twice, yet have rebounded to be in the upper middle class due to my work and determination. I am mixed white/Cherokee, so no favorable free passes either. I do not feel sorry for the poor. They are there by choice. I am a living example of what you can do if you really want it bad enough.

Originally posted by crimvelvet
reply to post by Jezus

 

This is exactly what created the plutocracy that we currently live in...

A very small group benefits from that type of "economic activity".

No a very large group benefits.

99.7 percent of all employer firms in the USA are small businesses.

But small businesses don't benefit from that economic environment.

Giant powerful corporations do.

I tried to paste in this table, but it is just not going to work on an ATS post. So I'll have to try to summarize and make it look sensible. Data is from 2008 directly from the IRS. The first section here is directly from the table, without the lines and columns (because that doesn't work)

100%: 139,960,580 returns paid taxes of $1,031,512mil for 100% AGI for 100% of taxes
Top 1%: 1,399,606 returns paid $392,149mil for 20.70% AGI for 38.02% of taxes
Top 5%: 6,998,029 returns paid $213,569mil for 34.73% AGI for 58.72% share
Top 10%: 13,996,068 returns paid $721,421mil for 45.77% AGI for 69.94% of taxes
Top 25%: 34,990,145 returns paid $890,614mil for 67.38% AGI for 86.34% of taxes
Top 50%: 69,980,290 returns paid $1,003,639mil for 87.25% AGI for 97.30% of taxes
Bottom 50%: 69,980,290 returns paid $27,783 mil for 12.75% AGI for 2.59% of taxes.
Bottom 47% paid no income taxes at all.

AGI = Adjusted Gross Income. So to put this in story problem form. I removed extraneous data to make this as simple as possible.

The top 1% earned 20.70% of the income, but paid 38.02% of all income taxes.
The top 5% earned 34.73% of the income, but paid 58.72% of all income taxes.
The top 10% earned 45.77% of the income, but paid 69.94% of all income taxes.
The top 25% earned 67.38% of the income, but paid 86.34% of all income taxes.
The top 50% earned 87.25% of the income, but paid 97.30% of all income taxes.
The bottom 50% earned 12.75% of the income, but paid 2.59% of all income taxes.

Now let's put that in perspective.

The top 1% means your adjusted gross income is at or above $380,354.
The top 10% means your adjusted gross income is at or above $113,799.
The top 25% means your adjusted gross income is at or above $67,280.
The top 50% means your adjusted gross income is at or above $33,048.
The bottom 50% means your adjusted gross income is below $33,048.

So when you talk about "taxing the rich," you have to ask yourself, what do you mean by that and how much sense does it make. Also, pay for federal workers tend to be higher than the private sector. This is revealing:

Overall, federal workers earned an average salary of $67,691 in 2008 for occupations that exist both in government and the private sector, according to Bureau of Labor Statistics data. The average pay for the same mix of jobs in the private sector was $60,046 in 2008, the most recent data available.

These salary figures do not include the value of health, pension and other benefits, which averaged $40,785 per federal employee in 2008 vs. $9,882 per private worker, according to the Bureau of Economic Analysis.

Source

So your average federal worker is in the top 25% category, and look at those benefits! So you vae a bit of a conundrum. The best way to handle this would be to support more welfare prograns so you could get a federal job administirng them and put yourself into the rich category so you could be taxed at a higher rate.

Originally posted by schuyler
Now let's put that in perspective.

The top 1% means your adjusted gross income is at or above $380,354.
The top 10% means your adjusted gross income is at or above $113,799.
The top 25% means your adjusted gross income is at or above $67,280.
The top 50% means your adjusted gross income is at or above $33,048.
The bottom 50% means your adjusted gross income is below $33,048.

So when you talk about "taxing the rich," you have to ask yourself, what do you mean by that and how much sense does it make. Also, pay for federal workers tend to be higher than the private sector. This is revealing:

Overall, federal workers earned an average salary of $67,691 in 2008 for occupations that exist both in government and the private sector, according to Bureau of Labor Statistics data. The average pay for the same mix of jobs in the private sector was $60,046 in 2008, the most recent data available.

These salary figures do not include the value of health, pension and other benefits, which averaged $40,785 per federal employee in 2008 vs. $9,882 per private worker, according to the Bureau of Economic Analysis.

Thanks for all that schuyler!! As to the question above "how does that make sense?"....it doesn't to the OP because he isn't after making sense of things, he's pushing a typical leftist agenda, and "sense" isn't part of the agenda.