War in heaven - when the angels attempted to depose god !

Being an atheist, I would normally stay as far away as possible from religious oriented topics or discussions or subjects as I consider religion, of any creed, to be nothing more than a bagful of inconsistencies, logical absurdities and discrepancy heaped upon discrepancy. But hey, each to his/her own and if you're happy to accept such non-sense (note the deliberate hyphenation used), then more power to you.

However, earlier today I found myself drawn (however unwillingly) into a discussion (if one can use the term) regarding the relative "strengths" or "powers" or "abilities" attributed to both god and lucifer.
Basically, the crux of the discussion centred around the following points:

If god exists and is allegedly omniscient, then we have the following corollaries.
1. god knew that one of his senior angels (lucifer) was going to stage a "heavenly" revolt and knowing this, still allowed the revolt to eventuate.
2. god did NOT know that a revolt was about to happen ... in which case he could NOT be omniscient. If so, then being called a "god" no longer applies and we need to demote him to what ? a lower class of god ? a demi-god perhaps ?
3. If lucifer felt the need to stage an uprising in heaven, then we can assume that he had the backing of other angels. We also have to assume that heaven itself was NOT a perfect environment and allowed discontent to breed in some of it's angels ... or alternatively, that lucifer (and his accomplices) either felt dissatisfied with the way god was running things and believed that he (lucifer) could do a better job ... in other words, the mother of all power struggles. Either way, this leads to the implication that god created a whole bunch of "flawed" angels that ultimately refused to obey/worship him. But creating imperfect angels indicates that god either did NOT know they were created imperfectly ... or did know but was unable to rectify or fix their flawed personalities AFTER those angels were created.
Either way, this indicates a serious flaw or imperfection in god's abilities of creation ... in the creation of heaven itself or his angels. No matter how you look at it, nothing less than a very fatal defect in any claim of godhood.
4. Having successfully put down the uprising and deliberate challenge to his authority and based on his claim to being an allegedly all-powerful god, surely it would have been no effort at all on god's behalf to snuff lucifer and his accomplices completely out of existence ... permanently. After all, god created the universe surely must mean that uncreating some angels shouldn't be a major draw on his resources .. should it ? So why resort to banishment by kicking the lot of them out of heaven and thereby leaving himself wide open to potential future take over attempts by lucifer and his accomplices ? Does this decision to allow lucifer and his accomplices to continue to exist indicate that perhaps lucifer is actually almost as powerful as god himself and that god lacked the necessary power and was UNABLE to rid himself of lucifer permanently ?

The end result of that discussion (and above points) was that the resulting illogicalities and absurdities served to reinforce my complete and total ongoing religious atheism.

However, if anyone is able to expand upon the above points, I'm more than happy to read your feedback

Oh, and a final question ... who or what was the original source that 1st mentioned the god/lucifer conflict ? The story had to originate somewhere.

May I propose a question that should also be considered? What if God created angels with the same free will Man was created? How does the free-will (notice the intentional hyphen) of angels demonstrate, or affect, the omniscience of God?

Maaate

I'd say heed your own advice that you wrote in your opening sentence. As for the philosophical musings of the content of the discussion, who cares. The more people talk about religious topics the longer they're going to hang around, try not to encourage them. And you might try agnosticism, atheism is technically a religion, because it's a belief.

Cheers

How can you possibly believe the assumptions and reasoning of any human being can match what's going on in the mind of God ? You don't see it as perposterous for man to try and imagine what Gods reasons are. If he created and set the Heavens in motion ? You see ? what I'm getting at ? Prolly not.

See as a creationist my belief of how we came to be, how we got here, about existence is right out there on the table to be ridiculed or picked apart by anyone. Where's yours?

with this thread i would say the can of woop @$$ is opened and we start looking for the most evil one.

reply to post by tauristercus


This is not really my answer to your question, but when I read your thread here, the first thought I had was if you have not,, maybe you should take a look into the Urantia material.
It has a very interesting and Cosmic perspective to this question.
On top of that,, It was Channeled by an Atheist Jewish Psychologist.

Basically it has a Bible like feel too it, and gives a hierarchy of "The Angels" their jobs as Cosmic Civil Servants to the Universal "Cause",, and is a very good read if you can look beyond all the Religious tones implied and expounded.

As a Child, this whole story is what started me on the Path to where I am now.
It definitely was the Star Wars Story of its day.

Memory? Or just a good fireside story?

I will respond more fully after a good nights sleep,,, should have been in bed hours ago,,, but have been digesting Slayer69's Threads on this and similar subjects. There is alot of info to organize,,, I see ATS as doing this as a service,, allowing us the space to make conjecture on these mysteries. I am still working on my first Thread,, yet to be published and shared, and I speak of my views on this there,, but again,, will respond here more later.
Thanks for another good Thread.

reply to post by tauristercus


Ah... you are starting to ask the right questions. The Bible you have has 66 books. The most preserved Bible from Ethiopia has 81

www.ethiopianorthodox.org...

The Watchers (Angel Spirits who were to guard the earth) decided to take "physical form" and come to Earth. They were kind of jealous that man could have offspring and take pride in children. They took physical form and took wives and had children. They taught man warfare, alchemy, science, etc. They set themselves up as gods on earth. They had children that were super human.... and they caused much suffering. They created abominations, half man half beast. They murdered for their own pleasure and had very little conscience or caring for God's creation. In short, they failed in their duties and almost ruined the earth. This was the reason for the great flood spoken about in Genesis but you wouldn't find that in today's Bible.

Anyway, how would God truly "Teach" a caretaker the "value" of life. Of Pain, of suffering, of Love, of Joy?

Life! Life of a mortal creature. What Caretakers are worthy to create and manage God's creation? Only those that have learned the lessons of Life!

What is the reason we are here? Why would God want caretakers? Why would God want a people? Keep reading for some insight you may have never known.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

The Purge (MANY Survivors of the Great Flood from all over the world)
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Today
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by randyvs

See as a creationist my belief of how we came to be, how we got here, about existence is right out there on the table to be ridiculed or picked apart by anyone. Where's yours?

edit on 8-7-2011 by randyvs because: (no reason given)

in any science book or high school biology tome. able to be TESTED and VERIFIED by anyone... where is your verifiable text?

God has issues for sure, there is some indication that a series of 'God' have taken place and the GOD we know of in the west as the God of Abraham Isaac and Moses,is only a link in a chain,a manifestation of ,what I do not know

I know I don't have it in me to make friends with it.
don't know where that leaves me?

I don't have whatever it takes to be friends with the Devil if it exists either


they say you have to serve somebody but I have been rejected by both

so I await a third option,guess I'm bad to the bone

Refer to the Biblical 'Book of Job.'

" 6 One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them. 7 The LORD said to Satan, “Where have you come from?”

Satan answered the LORD, “From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it.”

 8 Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”

 9 “Does Job fear God for nothing?” Satan replied. 10 “Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. 11 But now stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.”

 12 The LORD said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your power, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.”

Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.

Job 1:6-12

Did the battle of Heaven occur before or after the story of Job?

Satan can tempt Lord God in His presence, but can not tempt Jesus?

Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’

Matthew 4:7
Luke 4:12

If that serpent ruined Eden and tempted Eve and Adam to disobey Lord God, why was Satan still allowed free domain to roam between Heaven and Earth?

Between tempting Eve, Job, and Jesus... when exactly did this Heavenly battle take place?

Makes no sense at all, but you just have to believe.

reply to post by okamitengu


Sounds as though you know what you're talking about. So tell me how did we get here?

How about why are we here ?

Where do we come from ? Where are we going ?

Please, explain how this existence, such as it is came to be ?

Atheism seems to reduce this life down to something completely meaningless. Just a space between two nothings. Does that even sound right ?

Verified.

Haha, I love the OP.. I love these types of excersizes.

I especially love the point about how if Heaven is perfect how could there be discontent?

But to address what another poster said about how if angels have free will or not.. this is my understanding of it, growing up in a Catholic home with a pretty devout dad who talked religion a lot.

Basically angels have one choice to follow god.. either they do or they don't. So their free will is very limited, where as people have a lifetime to make those choices.

However, if this were the case, wouldn't these angels have already chosen to follow god and not be able to renege on that choice? The conundrums continue to pile up.

There are a couple of theory's that can explain your question.

One was touched on earlier that God created the Angels to have free will. They became jealous and led by Lucifer staged some sort of revolt. The Bible doesn't spend alot of time on this so details are few about the battle.

Another one is that God created all of this for the benefit of man. God knows and creates all so he purposefully set this in motion. Without temptation for man they would have no way to prove their faith.

Yet another theory is that in order for there to be good there must also exist evil. What we have in the Bible is one side of the story. Some have put forth the notion that Lucifer is the other side of God and is more equal to him than God would have you imagine. Very little proof but some do believe this.

One final theory I can think of is that God does not know everything. Ultimate power does not necessarily equate to ultimate knowledge though I find it a short step from believing that a being can create worlds to knowing everything. This to me is the hardest to believe but would make the most sense.

If God did not know the outcome he would need evidence of people's faith which would make sense. However given the fact that he knows what everyone is truly thinking leads me to believe he could tell the future.

reply to post by Sahabi


WOW star for your post for sure. Excellent point.. I must say, Bravo!

I like the story I was told about God and the Devil. It makes a heck of a lot more sense to me anyway. For sake of my 2 cents that's what we'll call them God and Lucifer.

God made the entire universe (including us, angels, aliens, etc), Lucifer came along and told God that he wanted to have the experience of the opposite of God, so God said Ok you have that choice and all. You sure that's what you want to do? He said yes, so God gave him this experience (with the sincere hope that once he had the experience that would be it). Lucifer LIKED the experience once he got down here. He found how relatively easy it was to control the humans through fear and division, and through his actions grew farther and farther from God, but he liked being there. He showed some of his buddies just how easy it was, and they too decided to come down and join in the fun. God allowed this because everyone has a choice. To this day even Lucifer himself could come back to God if he wanted to, he just chooses not to.

reply to post by tauristercus

I was taught that there was a battle in heaven between God and Lucifer, and Lucifer lost. Lucifer and his angels were sent to heaven because God promised him Earth during creation.
However, I've read the bible two times through (NKJV).looking for things I was taught, and I don't remember any mention of a major battle in heaven between God and Satan. I'm not sure where the idea of it comes from. In all the books, their is little mention of Satan directly (except with Adam and Eve, Job and Jesus). more abstractly and along the lines of the "devil tempts us to do things and he's fallen from grace.
So I have to wonder if the battle actually happened or if it was something added to Christian or Jewish mythology?
If a battle between God and Satan was believed to have happened, I wonder why the story wasn't woven into the books. It would be a great example of God's wrath and God's love.Unless the people didn't feel this story was important to pass on to generations. My impression of the bible is it chronicles the jewish peoples history, and the chronicles the early history of the Christian church from a moral or spiritual perspective. Maybe this story wasn't needed in the books because it wasn't part of what they experienced.

You won't find it in the Bible.
The story comes from "Paradise Lost" by John Milton.

What im wondering is why those books were taken out of the bible. I mean its hard enough to determine its authenticity, but to take those out? For what?

Originally posted by Sahabi
You won't find it in the Bible.
The story comes from "Paradise Lost" by John Milton.

That explains why I couldn't find it in the Bible or why I haven't came across similar stories while looking into other ancient cultures.

So if it isn't in the Bible, but was apart of Christian literature, why are so many Christians taught to believe this? Like the OP pointed out, it doesn't go along with what Christians believe about God.

reply to post by tauristercus


Of course God knew about the “rebellion”

The problem with some religious folks is that they can’t accept the fact that God is the author of all things including evil.

Evil exists for many reasons; one is that it transforms energy more efficiently, through emotionality.

Evil is a temporary affliction that is the result of being outside of ones nature.
When the inner lost nature is restored then this “Satan” or “Lucifer” or the “devil “ will cease to exist”

Evil is a science as anything is. And is only possible within what can be called the Matrix. It is based on the 5 negative energy archetypes, and the “devil’ is one of them.

The”Devil” originally existed to balance powerful energy that for a time Adam had to be shielded from

The rebellion of the devil, on one level, was him informing Adam of the fact that he, the devil, was shielding him from powerful energies he couldn’t endure yet.