Are Money, Material Things making us less human.

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posted on Jul, 7 2011 @ 01:41 AM
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Are Money, Material Things making us less human




The Dissension among Families and friends is probably the a prevalent reason many humans in the 1st world have lost compassion, love or understanding for their fellow human (Even Strangers)

Maybe crime is also a reason for this as well not to trust other humans but Crime can be ridden of for the most part if we are rid of the monetary system; the only crime left than would be psychopaths and/or love driven crimes.

The Elites have succeeded in getting everyone to care more for possessions(material objects) than their own fellow humans.

That and most people will willfully oblige to the Oppressive and Suppressive Government.

Because many are probably too meek and meager and/or oppressed, scared, paranoid embarrassed to speak up for their human rights of equality, liberty.

Perhaps a lot of this was achieved by the Metro-sexualization of Men(Gays, Un-Manly Men)

But i have nothing Against Gay's i'm just saying that its a somewhat similar to metro-sexual in terms of lack of less testosterone and subsequently producing more meager men who cannot speak up for themselves if oppressed suppressed.

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We are in a competitive world working to increase ones status; above others.

Then We see that this causes a disparity between the people who work to be successful and the people who do not want to work to be successful(Too lazy, or just poor, Can't afford Post-Secondary-Education)

Anyways this video is a good start to getting back too our roots on how to be friendly and treat our fellow humans as friends
www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.liveleak.com...

We as humans need to get closer back to our roots when humans work for the collective good of humanity and not for the collective greed of the few
(Material things)(40+% Of American Jobs Service Industry Slave to Rich, and Wealthy)
(50 Million Americans on FoodStamps)
(Several hundred million in world Starving every day Mal-nourished)

This video just sparked my interest into the topic about it all and maybe i can add a little bit more to the thread with my post from this thread.

For anyone else interested in this thread its cool thread and you should check it out. I think it may run along the lines of what i'm trying to say. I will quote part of my post from it i suppose.




First Off S & F

because we need to usurp/overthrow the government or we will be subject and subjugated to eternal slavery if we do not lend credence to your ideas and we must act swiftly and fast to achieve what you have brought forward.

I agree with your Party Idea Humans are shall all be equally treated.

Without money there will be little crime only passion crime

With Technology we can free ourselves from slavery/work and be free to do hobbies/sports activities and such or play etc or work on Space Exploration as a Race together; which i believe is an important goal.

Space exploration should be the main focus instead of War when all the Wars are ended through our/your party we will be able to set space Exploration to full speed is this something you want with the Socio-Party!



Seventh, we see that, without money, we can build machines – robots – to do all necessary work. Without work as an “ethic,” we substitute a “betterment ethic,” and encourage all to look for ways – within the three Laws and with organic solutions prized – to improve conditions on this planet for everyone, and offer these ideas for consideration and possible action.

Eighth, we understand that virtually all crime is, on one level or another, related to money, and without money as motive, virtually all crime will vanish – leaving the very few, passion-related crimes for us to deal with. We will deal with all crime publicly, and those who care can and will decide each case. Most such choice of behavior will lead to social pariah-hood for the perpetrators.


Yes i agree with pretty much all your ideas because almost all humans have a sense of empathy and understanding for what other Humans need/want to live without poverty.

But in todays society the materialness is rampant and Girls in particular including men though are incredibly dependent and/or brainwashed to want these material objects and or certain corporations products and/or brands.

We must be rid of this non-sense and free the Human race with the whole Human Race coming together and engineering developing machines together.

We are intelligent enough if we all come together and do this and if not we can have current engineers architects machinists teach people to learn how to construct such.

So we have the labor force to build the Machines.

We must also build machines to maintain the Machines; but we must not become to dependent on the Machines because it makes humanity vulnerable so we may have volunteers; or short time periods humans may be obliged to commit a short period of their time to maintain the machines and/or farming robots (Combines) and/or other things that will gather food and create products for us etc.

As humans we shall be free and together without monetary value no human will be above another. The humans we dignify will be the humans of great intellect and innovation because they are the humans who strive to seek greatness through enhancing human innovation technology and achievement. Through these we will evolve to become a greater species and more capable of things.

We shall honor these citizens because they are not seeking monetary value but greatness through what i stated above.

This is a great Idea Amaterasu; we must seek to instill this Socio-Party; because with every moment the Elites the hoarders of Wealth and the cause of Disparity and real cause of poverty vs luxury(sumptuous)

In todays present

Money= Freedom

We must work to change this and we will with the Socio-Economic Party

We shall innovate and explore the Universe together as the Human Race and attempt to have a sustainable Earth.



Transportation will be free – for ourselves, our food and product systems, and any other transportation needs. This offers the ability to go where One wishes, moving food to where it is needed, and other freedom we presently do not have, with transportation energy costing so much.


Google is Developing Cars that can drive by their self and such. So this shows the Transportation of Goods to human population centres will be possible. Through robots. We shall have mainframes that control these transportations of goods and volunteers may supervise them. Because people will volunteer especially when there is no work and no need to work when the Robots take over most of the work.

I know you probably know this but a lot of America and developing countries new jobs are about bringing services and being Slaves literally To the Elites and the top 10-1% wealthy of the country. Because many of the jobs of manufacturing/services/etc have been taking over by robots.

Services are the largest industry in the United states/Canada and are they for the sole purpose of Serving people various services but the main intention is too service the few 10-1% of the wealthiest who will buy and/or use the most services to obtain products and/or services.

So we have

This is a huge disparity in the Wealth and wealth can lead to power over other humans and many of the people with wealth can hire hit men to kill humans they don't like or don't agree with them

Police are there to Protect the Elite they serve only to protect the monetary rules of the Society.

The People are living under oppression from the few humans that have the power and wealth to manipulate people and through coercion do as they wish evil or good. We must remove the current governments but this must all happen to all governments at the same time all humans must unite to overthrow their governments before its too late.

Because there is no other way we will be able to overthrow the power structure of the rich Elites and their Police Gestapo(Protectors) Army (SS-Gestapo).

Then we shall have a new Era in humanity the Era of True freedom after the completion of the Machinations that will service Humanity.

To free us from the slave labor of the Elites.

Then we shall transcend Ascent and become free as humans have always sought throughout our dark past.

The Zeitgeist movies i know are similar to your/our ideas and we may use the ideas from them as well or join them in achieving great things.

They also encourage the end of religion/money/disparity.

We must unite. And strike at the Heart of the Governments. Elites/Power Structure Before tis too late. My friends.

Otherwise we will fall under Fascist Socialistic Totalitarian Rule by the Elites then we shall be subject to slavery for all eternity.

The time is now my friends. July 1st July 4th GO AND PROTEST AND SEEK THE REMOVAL OF THE GOVERNMENT.


I know i become a bit too vehement at the end of my post i quoted sorry. If the mods want it removed i can remove it.

Maybe i was just excited in the moment.

I am not advocating to overthrow the government maybe some of my statements said this (I think i was a bit too excited at the time). Maybe i have an underlying supposition that this needs to be done.

If the quote is too big and they want it removed i will remove it sorry..

Please read most of Thread before replying. Also if you care to partake in the other thread( Am i allowed to say that?) Do so
edit on 7-7-2011 by TheUniverse because: (no reason given)




posted on Jul, 7 2011 @ 02:04 AM
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Great thread, people are becoming more and more materialistic by the second.far too much value has been put into unnecessary things.I understand that homes and vehicles are necessary things,but 3 story homes with pools and basketball courts are what people yearn for,its just not necessary.50,000 dollar gas guzzlers are appealing to people only because of the price tag.it seems that human nature is evolving into a anything you can do i can do better type of ordeal,and not in a good way..



posted on Jul, 7 2011 @ 02:15 AM
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reply to post by VicDiaz89
 


Yes what if we become so heartless we evolve into creatures with no compassion; and subsequently destroy ourselves.

What if we become too attached to the material things(Money) in life and care not for the fellow humans.
This worries me for the future of Humanity as laid out in the Thread.

I'd appreciate anyone to add their own suppositions/opinions

Example this statement from my thread


We as humans need to get closer back to our roots when humans work for the collective good of humanity and not for the collective greed of the few


The Materialistic approach that is common place now may also be brain-washing to accept the vastly sumptuous behaviors of the Elites, Vastly Rich, Humans who dwell on this Earth.

While much of the Earth is ravaged by their Sumptuousness.


(Material things)(40+% Of American Jobs Service Industry Slave to Rich, and Wealthy) (50 Million Americans on FoodStamps) (Several hundred million in world Starving every day Mal-nourished)
edit on 7-7-2011 by TheUniverse because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 7 2011 @ 02:32 AM
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Well, there is a very easy way to test it. Give up material posessions and check how more humane you became.
Pretty easy thing to do.
On more serious note - modern civilization makes us less humane due to its values,demands and pace. Material stuff over-accumulation is just a symptom.



posted on Jul, 7 2011 @ 02:41 AM
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reply to post by ZeroKnowledge
 




Well, there is a very easy way to test it. Give up material posessions and check how more humane you became.
Pretty easy thing to do.


I mostly mean excess and/or useless amounts of Material Possessions not all material possessions. I think that its the excessive amount of this at which the super rich/Elites have at their disposal to purchase sort-of could be focused elsewhere lets say.

Trying to help the worlds poor and/or Un-housed/shelter.(I know there is already progress there but to what extent)



On more serious note - modern civilization makes us less humane due to its values,demands and pace. Material stuff over-accumulation is just a symptom.


Yes, but is it a symptom or a curse; will it lead to a vast change in the human psyche (Example Lead Humans Instinct toward less compassion more dissension, less love, more hate, less tolerance, more disparity) I know these are also instilled into most of our brains as we grow up( Our Environment ) But also are Genes are laced with some of this from our parents as well.

So the tendency may become more prevalent to seek materials instead of human companionship
edit on 7-7-2011 by TheUniverse because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 7 2011 @ 03:12 AM
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Originally posted by TheUniverse
I am not advocating to overthrow the government maybe some of my statements said this...


yes you are, and yes they did--


Originally posted by TheUniverse
We must remove the current governments but this must all happen to all governments at the same time all humans must unite to overthrow their governments before its too late.


There is nothing wrong with this, please stand by what you believe... but all this Utopian, well-wishing living that comes AFTER we get rid of TBTB, well plz everyone re-focus their attention from that future,to the present, with a plan for NOW. What is your plan Luke sky-walker(The universe), to overthrow all of them all at once? I would love to see a plan on ATS from ANYBODY. Keep in mind the Powers That Be must be able to read this plan and be able to do nothing to stop it....



posted on Jul, 7 2011 @ 03:24 AM
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reply to post by TheUniverse
 

You've answered your own question in your post.

It's not money and material things that make us less human. Those are simply two of the "carrots" used by criminals and psychopaths to make us act less human.

In this universe, material comforts are a powerful bribe. You need a strong sense of ethics and integrity to turn away from that bribe and decide to do the right thing. Most of us have already made that mistake a few times down our tracks, or we wouldn't be here now.

It is definitely the criminal use of factors of material comfort, or safety, that will have to be effectively addressed if we want to avoid lapsing back into a slavery-based society.

We now have the spiritual knowledge and the spiritual tools to make that happen, so it is only a matter of our determination.



posted on Jul, 7 2011 @ 03:24 AM
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reply to post by Inkrinhuminge
 


I started this thread upon Suppositions that i made on a thread that was removed (404'ed Thought-Police) Because the guy was trying to incite organized rebellion to the government Etc.( like actually trying to coax people into coming/meeting together and becoming activists etc) I think in the T and C you're not allowed to do that.

So i renounced my vehement statements to try and not incite anyone to violence against the government etc.

(Sometimes i get excited sorry)

So if i want my thread to be within the T and C's i must claim that i am not advocating usurping the government overthrowing government etc.

I'm just attempting to comply with the rules.

But we are free to speak within the bounds of how and/or what changes to society we can/could implement

Speak Freely on your opinions on the matter my friend

(I knew people would quote me for this hahah)



posted on Jul, 7 2011 @ 03:30 AM
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reply to post by TheUniverse
 


Very good thread TheUniverse, thank you for posting it.

Throughout history, as I see it, there have been two things that Civilization has valued the most.
First, Power.
Second, Money.
The stronger the personal need for the first, the stronger the need for the second, and the cycle continues to all levels.

The show of wealth is just as important as the wealth itself, even if the wealth is non existent. It is in the show that the real value of money becomes evident, whether it is the flash of the cash, the property owned, or even just the attitude portrayed. He who has the money, has the attention of those around them, and those that have the attention have the power all the way to the top.

The problem, is that the human race, in civilization, begins to take the "Little Things" for granted and value shifts from what is supposed to be valued to the material world. As children, most of us, value our parents and/or our blanket or stuffed animal for comfort and compassion. Later it becomes our friends for companionship. Then as we get older we begin to realize the world runs on money. Needs, responsibilities, bills, desires, status, competition within the new friends, etc. The value becomes embedded in money for survival or fear of being faced with having to survive instead of live. Unfortunately this problem compounds upon itself as there is no more time to actually live.

In my opinion, the only things that should be valued is life and the betterment of it without sacrificing life to achieve it.

What do I value? Life itself, and My 4 favorite songs.

My favorite songs?

The heart beats of my Wife and three Children.



posted on Jul, 7 2011 @ 03:31 AM
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reply to post by l_e_cox
 





You've answered your own question in your post.

It's not money and material things that make us less human. Those are simply two of the "carrots" used by criminals and psychopaths to make us act less human.


Yes i surmise you're point is logical a good analogy, perhaps!




In this universe, material comforts are a powerful bribe. You need a strong sense of ethics and integrity to turn away from that bribe and decide to do the right thing. Most of us have already made that mistake a few times down our tracks, or we wouldn't be here now.


Yes i can understand what you're saying there (This would be a good thing for other people to formulate a reply to)

There are probably many of us who have done evil things for money (this is why the getting rid of money is essential)



It is definitely the criminal use of factors of material comfort, or safety, that will have to be effectively addressed if we want to avoid lapsing back into a slavery-based society.


Yes the Disparity is ever more prevalent now than ever before. Whilst hundreds of millions starve around the world the Elites/ Rich are subjecting and advocating totalitarianism and it may be secretly brain-washed for us to accept it by the adoration of and/or aspiration to be like people with vast excessive materialism (example: Reality Shows)

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Will the Banksters And The Corpocracy Eventually Own It All? 29 Statistic Aboout Extreme Income In-Equality In America That Will Blow Your Mind- InfoWars.com
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Not to take away from the poor in the third world this is just an example i found quite awakening



We now have the spiritual knowledge and the spiritual tools to make that happen, so it is only a matter of our determination.


We also have the technological knowledge to free humanity as well. I hope to have a great long thread on this if i can garner enough replies for people

(Hope too many aren't afraid of the wall of text)
edit on 7-7-2011 by TheUniverse because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 7 2011 @ 04:04 AM
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reply to post by Agarta
 




Very good thread TheUniverse, thank you for posting it.


Thank you i commend all who are willing to read the wall of text and formulate a response/reply/opinion.



Throughout history, as I see it, there have been two things that Civilization has valued the most.
First, Power.
Second, Money.
The stronger the personal need for the first, the stronger the need for the second, and the cycle continues to all levels.


Yes Before money existed it was power, resources and wealth. The world was somewhat of a harsh place because the humans fought with each other because of their in-differences and/or their infatuations for conquest of another nation and/or for control over another countries resources.

I believe the Earth is plentiful and has far more than enough resources for all humans to exist together in harmony on.

Then when money came around it seemed as if monarch rule dropped in popularity and democracy and/or socialism communism took its place.

Humans elected officials to fight for the good of the common people; this soon become apparent though that many officials have been bought and paid for with money(lobbying) or have interests with companies that they once worked for.

If there is a separate entity than the politician will most likely pass any(most) law ruling in favour of the corporation/company that lobbied them with money.

But these laws may not be in the best interest and/or for the common good of our fellow humans.



The show of wealth is just as important as the wealth itself, even if the wealth is non existent. It is in the show that the real value of money becomes evident, whether it is the flash of the cash, the property owned, or even just the attitude portrayed. He who has the money, has the attention of those around them, and those that have the attention have the power all the way to the top.


Yes somewhat similar to saying "it takes money to make money"

But to the point; yes i surmise that many with vast wealth may have humans gather around them in their social circles because the human with more wealth is perhaps more important to them(Perhaps this is an instinctual thing because money is power in today's world)

As laid out though, those with money in this society have a expansive ability to do nefarious things if they are evil themselves that is also a flaw of the monetary system.



The problem, is that the human race, in civilization, begins to take the "Little Things" for granted and value shifts from what is supposed to be valued to the material world. As children, most of us, value our parents and/or our blanket or stuffed animal for comfort and compassion. Later it becomes our friends for companionship. Then as we get older we begin to realize the world runs on money. Needs, responsibilities, bills, desires, status, competition within the new friends, etc. The value becomes embedded in money for survival or fear of being faced with having to survive instead of live. Unfortunately this problem compounds upon itself as there is no more time to actually live.


One of the truest adages i have ever heard thank-you for your wisdom my friend.



"The value becomes embedded in money for survival or fear of being faced with having to survive instead of live. Unfortunately this problem compounds upon itself as there is no more time to actually live."



Yes and also sometimes people feel responsible (even without children) to prove themselves successful to other humans it is basic human instinct i surmise.(For that part at-least)



In my opinion, the only things that should be valued is life and the betterment of it without sacrificing life to achieve it.


Yes perhaps humanity can come together and we can become more concerned about the well-being of our fellow humans than more concerned for our material possessions




What do I value? Life itself, and My 4 favorite songs.

My favorite songs?

The heart beats of my Wife and three Children.


Yes compassion, love, understanding, family, friends, and feeling that we are connected and share this Earth together.

We shall walk the path in harmony and ascend above the curse of excessive materialism and come back down to our roots and share become aware and understanding of our fellow humans that we love so much.

We are all human



posted on Jul, 7 2011 @ 04:50 AM
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It Appears i forgot to Post the Link to my Quote; of my Post from the Thread i quoted in, in the OP

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Heres the link to the thread that probably inspired my suppositions and/or opinion, thoughts on this issue.

We shall Ascend, Transcend !

(P.S I'm Agnostic)



posted on Jul, 7 2011 @ 06:19 AM
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I believe this is what actually makes us human. Animals don't drive, get booby implants, wear clothes, update their facebook page to tell their "friends" useless crap about their day,etc etc. We are unique in that way. But I agree that we're too materialistic.



posted on Jul, 7 2011 @ 06:44 AM
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reply to post by sbc650mike
 





I believe this is what actually makes us human. Animals don't drive, get booby implants, wear clothes, update their facebook page to tell their "friends" useless crap about their day,etc etc. We are unique in that way. But I agree that we're too materialistic.



I thank you for your input. Anyone is free to offer their opinion on the matter i encourage it. It induces more discussion thank-you.


I believe this is what actually makes us human. Animals don't drive


I wasn't really meaning we are less animal i mean't we are less human (Even though we are animals in definition)

I'm not sure what you were pertaining to (There's a big wall of text in my OP)

I thank you for your input though.

I was really meaning we are less human as in with the rampant materialization happening in our modern world we are losing sense of many things around us (Example : Fellow Humans) I was just trying to formulate this thread to spark some interesting discussion on the matter


I overall mean we are somewhat losing touch with our connection to fellow humans with materialization becoming more apparent in our ever modernizing industrial world( And many of the points laid out in the OP and Posts)



I believe this is what actually makes us human. Animals don't drive, get booby implants, wear clothes,


That is true my friend;although i'll attempt to argue semantics

Well Driving Is a form of transportation; animals move around too and migrate(Migration) So i guess that is one similarity (Animals travel very far distances as well; some of them atleast)

Or maybe you mean actually being able to drive an advanced machine (Car) that in that way we are more human because we are constructing complicated machinery yes But to what extent is needed instead of wanted for this advanced machinery.

Like what could be used for more stream-lined transportation mass-rail, Buses etc are good. Although many people in modern westernized world Use cars and some have luxury cars that may seem un-needed compared to just normal cars because they both have the same purpose they get you from point A to point B; one just does it with more comfort Luxury(If you can afford it)

Booby Plants I'm not sure i'm going to try and formulate an answer to this one haha


Well Clothes you could be referring to Fur and/or scales and/or feathers and/or blubbler/hide Like many Animals have in the kingdom is essentially a form of clothes that nature provides for the animal to protect itself from the elements and viruses/bacteria that could be harmful to the organism.

Or

You could be referring to the Clothes that are manufactured from synthetic and/or natural materials(example:Cotton) That of which humans can customize to their own desire (Fashion) and is a unique trait to most only humans.

Although Some animals in the world do wear brilliant colours and patterns on their Fur and/or scales and/or feathers and/or blubbler/hide to attract mates. Or a few exceptions those of which that can change colour at will.



update their facebook page to tell their "friends" useless crap about their day,etc etc. We are unique in that way. But I agree that we're too materialistic.


Yes Humans do have the internet that is quite different, from what animals have not.

Perhaps animals Communicate in their own special way; i think many of them do and research is delving further into this subject.
edit on 7-7-2011 by TheUniverse because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 7 2011 @ 12:19 PM
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reply to post by TheUniverse
 


I'm willing to help out here if I can....

I for one don't mind being "less human" so if anyone wants to walk the path of anti materialism and the simple life...

Send all your stuff to me and I'll put it to good use. I'm in particular need of a new van as mine is on it's last legs and needs a new valve job real bad and my dog has just about ruined my sofa.

Thanks in advance to all you Nirvana seekers and best of luck!!



posted on Jul, 7 2011 @ 05:02 PM
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reply to post by whaaa
 


I don't see it as materialism, so much as I see it as that materialism being bigger and better than our fellow man. That never ending attempt to feel more important. It seems to me that this civilization is set up to pay the thinkers vastly more than the physical laborers, and that for some reason, makes the thinker more productive and more important than the laborer in societies eye. In other words, The less actual work one does, the more they get paid to do so, usually off the back of the ones who do work more. I am not saying that those people payed to think simply sit around and only think, but you can see, in the quality and length of life span, it is much different between a worker and a thinker.

Lets say an architect gets paid $50,000 for a two week project. In that same 2 week period the laborer that is doing the building makes $3,0000. Multiply that by a team of twelve(36,000) + the building company profit of $14,000 making 50,000( General numbers to show example).

 


As for the value I think it is fear based. In fact I think the process of life today is fear based.
Most people have a conscious or subconscious fear of having nothing. Not just the material, that most have but also shelter and food in more than a few cases. There are very few people completely off the grid, living completely self sufficient without the fear of loosing the land on which they live. In fact, at least in the United States, to do this is illegal in most parts. You must have plumbing at the very least in order to live there and in a lot of places electricity is also required, forcing you to work within the system, which also creates the fear of retribution of not maintaining. It is becoming easier today with alternative energy but even in that you must work within the system to pay for it all(In most cases) and maintenance, not to mention the inspections that pop up from time to time and the fear associated with being judged.

How do you work within the system without fear of judgment and ridicule from multiple angles?
Some may say "I don't care I will live my life the way I want" but that can and most often will lead to conflict and possible incarceration(legal kidnapping) or death. But the answer always comes back to having enough money to pay the people, who have the most fear of loosing their lively hood, which creates greed and hording. Through their fear, they assume if they carry the bigger stick, without compassion, they have some semblance of control.

 


The downward spiral of the corruption of the spirit.
edit on 7-7-2011 by IPILYA because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 7 2011 @ 08:32 PM
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Great post Universe it got me sucked straight in as soon as I started to read.

I was thinking if you could form a plan that was full proof and could work even with a few minor flaws it would be safer to keep it off the internet and sites like ATS and preferably bring it up with your "Bookclub" that just so happens to be people from ATS



posted on Jul, 7 2011 @ 09:38 PM
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reply to post by Windows
 


I will formulate my replies once i finish eating


In the meanwhile anyone including you who is interested in relative topics should also check out

Amaterasu's Thread

The Ethical Planetarian Platform; Revision 001
edit on 7-7-2011 by TheUniverse because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 8 2011 @ 05:08 PM
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Originally posted by TheUniverse
reply to post by Windows
 


I will formulate my replies once i finish eating




It's been a couple of days now....

We're beginning to worry....did you get some bad fish or something?



posted on Jul, 9 2011 @ 02:47 AM
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reply to post by Windows
 





Great post Universe it got me sucked straight in as soon as I started to read. I was thinking if you could form a plan that was full proof and could work even with a few minor flaws it would be safer to keep it off the internet and sites like ATS and preferably bring it up with your "Bookclub" that just so happens to be people from ATS


Yes perhaps we will find many other possible ATS members at a local public library or book club. I think their are only 16,000 members though so i'm not sure the chance of it would be that good.

Although the number of lurkers is far greater than the amount of members i think.

You should see the thread linked earlier in this thread. One one of my first posts.





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