Is the USA becoming a Police State?

America is in a state of war; concessions must be made. We are under the constant threat of attack and vigilence is of the utmost importance. Regardless of their presence, as long as the police serve the public good, we have not become a police state.

It's a fine line to walk and that is why we must always make sure that our constitution remains intact. The Patriot Act concerns me less than it does many here, because it is intended as a temporary measure, but as the so-called "assault weapons ban" proves stupid and useless legislation can take on a life of its own. I don't think that the Patriot Act is stupid and useless, but, I hope that it will someday become useless and I also hope that we have the wherewithall to rescind it at that time.

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
America is in a state of war; concessions must be made. We are under the constant threat of attack and vigilence is of the utmost importance. Regardless of their presence, as long as the police serve the public good, we have not become a police state.

State of war? Is that what that is? I thought they were just trying to fix what they F***ed up!

It aint concessions they want, they want everything I do simply because I want to.

Anyone have a link to that college boy (white even, for those that seems to make a difference to, jeez)) stateside doing his photo class project? Forget what exactly his scenario was, but the owning agency of the subject of his lens told the law anyone can take pics of anything they want to. Was a month maybe two ago.

Right then

Heil GWub

Misfit

Originally posted by Misfit
State of war? Is that what that is? I thought they were just trying to fix what they F***ed up!

It aint concessions they want, they want everything I do simply because I want to.

Thank you for your input.

Let me get this straight. You call yourself misfit, your signature states that you are not human and you give your location as a dark cave.

Are we to take you seriously?

Originally posted by crmanager
Answer the question.

What freedoms are being taken away?

Name one thing in the Patriot act that infringes on daily civil rights.

Either you're severely brainwashed and don't get out much or you're one of them.

Freedom of movement without government interference. When you can no longer travel in your automobile from point A to point B without a search to make sure you are really who you say you are and your not involved in anything that the government doesn't agree with. That equals a loss of freedom we once had. Although these checks are few and far between once they are accepted as norm there is nothing stopping them from growing to the point that you can't even go grocery shopping without them.

Example : Here in Washington State instead of building expensive bridges we've chosen to use ferries and in order to board a ferry your vehical is subject to search by the Washington State Patrol. Instead simple profiling for terrorist were now making sure that daddy doesn't have a roach of a joint in the ashtray that we can give him a $500 fine for. That's really what guys who think like you wan't isn't it, crmanager? A society that complies with everything the government says. I guess that's the difference between those of us who want freedom and those like you who want us all to live within the box.

I'm not going to argue about so called "Civil Rights", because somehow folks like you believe if it's not written in blood it can be taken away. It's really about the intent of why we came here & told England to F-Off & get out of our personal biz.

Originally posted by crmanager
They want the bad guys.

Ah yes, but why don't we just spell out the definition of "bad guys" up front, Mr. crmanager? Maybe because you'd rather have the law in place with our help, before we all get labeled as bad guys - and that's the bottom line. Then if we speak out you can just put us away with one of the many laws we have broken.

Originally posted by crmanager
He who is the guiltiest yells the loudest.

You're louder than anyone on this thread so far Mr. CR, do you have some criminal act you want to share with the rest of us?

The Patriot Act is nothing but the "Gestapo ACT" of the 21'st century and anyone who supports it is the real enemy of the people.

Mr. Crmanger you remind me of the guy who sits in the passing lane doing 59 ,because the speed limit is 60 and even though there's plenty of room in the other lanes you refuse to pull over as a courtesy for the guy who wants to safely pass. You think it's your job to see that he complies to the rules so much that you'll even speed up so he can't get around you at just the right moment when your coming up on another car. No, that might not be the way you drive, but the analogy still fits your profile.




[edit on 15-8-2004 by outsider]

It comes down to which is more important to the individual, freedom or the rule of law. When it gets to the point where one cannot have both and must choose, which will you pick?

- Was

I do not know if police state is the correct term at this moment but we are deffently going down a scarry road that could EASILY end up as a police state.

I am over 50 and have seen many freedoms and rights go away over the last 50 years. It is as much of an attitude that the government has a right to all this information and that we should "untie" our governments hands.

I think this is BS, most government leaders will admit, when pressed that the new laws would NOT have stopped the attacks any better than the correct use of the old laws whould.

In other words the Government needs to concentrate on doing its old job RIGHT before it asks for more power.

If it completly screwed it up then what makes anyone think handing MORE power to a bunch of nitwits will help?

Originally posted by Wassabi
It comes down to which is more important to the individual, freedom or the rule of law. When it gets to the point where one cannot have both and must choose, which will you pick?

- Was

For me it will be freedom

I vote for Freedom as well, baby.

Originally posted by Amuk


I think this is BS, most government leaders will admit, when pressed that the new laws would NOT have stopped the attacks any better than the correct use of the old laws whould.

Ahh, one who speaks the truth now - that I can agree with. There were plenty of laws to stop these guys & all the information they needed was in their hands. Those in charge at the time were just asleep at the wheel, and the new laws are only to deflect the blame & sneak in other agenda while the rest of us are sleeping.

[edit on 15-8-2004 by outsider]

I will ALWAYS vote for feedom.

People will have to make a choice soon. It will come and many friends, families, peoples will be divided. That choice is highlighted in the bible and is becoming more and more obvious as time goes on. They give with one hand and take more with the other, unseen until its too late.

Personally the choice will prob not be a person but rather a path. Which path will you choose?

After all, the ultimate freedom is our freedom of choice.

'He who is guilty shouts loudest' crmanager said. That type of thinking is part of the problem. It fuels the system, well done!!

[edit on 15-8-2004 by 7th_Chakra]

Let's see...

Remove the evidence:

www.washingtonpost.com...

They destroyed the 911 Plane tapes hence this forensic evidence is gone.

www.the7thfire.com...

They torn down WTC and sent the forensic evidence to China ASAP. There is no forensic investigation of the steel or other superstructure of WTC.

Nazification:

fcit.coedu.usf.edu...

Can you say, "1933 Reichstag Fire?"

Given the timeline of the original "Nazis" we have about 5 years left before the "Night of Broken Glass" (Kristallnacht) which occurred on November 9, 1938. I doubt it will be Jews this time, however. Likely it will be Christians.

Try this one for a synopsis: www.thirdworldtraveler.com...

And, note this:

www.msnbc.msn.com...
www.thetruthseeker.co.uk...

Hmm... a Gestapo and "Arbeit Macht Frei" camps... in America??? Is there ANY QUESTION at all that America is going fascist????

Hello? Is there any intelligent life out there?

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott

Thank you for your input.

Let me get this straight. You call yourself misfit, your signature states that you are not human and you give your location as a dark cave.

Are we to take you seriously?

And you are taking those points seriously?

Jeez

[Edit In] ..........

Guess I need to put some content in to keep on topic.............ok, here ya go - under the guise of The Patiroit Act, the gov was trying to push the main-stream antivirus co's to include a bak door in each AV app for gov use only - in other words, they are in your PC whenever they want, doing anything they want, viewing anything they want, it's a Trojan ffs.

Don't know about you man, but that push was DEF loss of freedom and right of privacy.

Misfit

[edit on 15-8-2004 by Misfit]

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott

Originally posted by Misfit
State of war? Is that what that is? I thought they were just trying to fix what they F***ed up!

It aint concessions they want, they want everything I do simply because I want to.

Thank you for your input.

Let me get this straight. You call yourself misfit, your signature states that you are not human and you give your location as a dark cave.

Are we to take you seriously?

Your are kidding me right? I hope so, or your gonna be in a lot of trouble around here as everyone has their own little ways of getting their points across.....Misfit is my husband, and we don't really live in a cave...as to being human, well, I guess that could be debatable for the both of us, depending on who you talk to...

as long as the police serve the public good

but what happens when they serve the good of the government? when a population becomes ever more enlightened to the evil deeds and sinister ways of our leaders they will have no choice but to call upon the "police" to put an end to the "terrorists". if you do not think our future as a free nation is looking extremely questionable, then you need to turn off the fox news, cnn, network news, they are all the same. even when i watch cspan they refer to issues so vaguely, and never divulge any useful information. they put on their side shows micheal, kobe, laci the list goes on even disaster events are slightly overanalyzed, all to keep the general media guzzeling average american complacent. i guess its a grand effort to keep us in a state of ultimate ignorance, and leaving the few of us who do question what direction our nation is headed in a state of ultimate confusion!!! jezuz h crackers i need a ciggarete

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
Let me get this straight. You call yourself misfit, your signature states that you are not human and you give your location as a dark cave.

Are we to take you seriously?

Welcome to the internet. You might be quick to judge the "Young Whipper Snappers" on their appearance in real life, as pointless as that is, but be careful not to do the same on the internet. Unless you wish to come across as a pointless, shallow and bland pseudo intellectual. The internet contains a vast and sprawling cosmopolitan populous. It is also a place where fantasy collides with reality.

Some points to note: Pointing out spelling errors or typographic mistakes will not improve your status or decrease that of your opponent. Exaggeration runs rampant on the internet, and while one may harshly judge another for a name/handle/nick they choose to be known by, you should not then expect that information you place in a profile will suddenly take on any more validity than that of a Navy Seal sniper born in 1987 who enjoys hunting down Tangos, martial arts and Dragon Ball Z.

Have fun.

[edit on 17-8-2004 by cargo]

does anyone find it funny that we here in the US are being asked to forsake freedoms in the name of security, while we have just thrown an entire nation into chaos in the name of freedom? oh wait, it's not funny...

-koji K.

The Executive Order

Here's a few tidbits from the above link.

THE BILL OF RIGHTS

On June 8, 1789, James Madison proposed the Bills of Rights to the new Congress. Its eventual creation was the outcropping of arguments made in the respective State legislatures debating ratification of the new Constitution. Madison had previously been opposed to the establishment of the Bill of Rights, but the treatises of Thomas Jefferson convinced him of the necessity of such Constitutional amendments. The concept was simple, according to Madison, "That all power is originally vested in, and consequently derived from the people. That government is instituted and ought to be exercised for the benefit of the people; which consists in the enjoyment of life and liberty and the right of acquiring property, and generally of pursing and obtaining happiness and safety. That the people have an indubitable, unalienable, and indefeasible right to reform or change their government whenever it be found adverse or inadequate to the purpose of its institution."

He further advocated, "The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship...The people shall not be deprived or abridged of their right to speak, to write, or to publish their sentiments; and the freedom of the press, as one of the great bulwarks of liberty, shall be inviolable. The people shall not be restrained from peaceably assembling and consulting for their common good; nor for applying to the legislature by petitions or remonstrances for redress of their grievances...The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

The framework of this nation is embodied in the Bill of Rights, unequaled in its time, and surpassed by none to date. Madison also stated, "The rights of the people to be secured in their persons, their houses, their papers, and their other property from all unreasonable searches and seizures shall not be violated by warrants issued without probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, or not particularly describing the places to be searched, or the persons or things to be seized." He added, "In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial to be informed of the cause and nature of the accusation, to be confronted with his accusers and the witnesses against him; to have a compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor; and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense."

# EXECUTIVE ORDER 10990 allows the government to take over all modes of transportation and control of highways and seaports.

# EXECUTIVE ORDER 10995 allows the government to seize and control the communication media.

# EXECUTIVE ORDER 10997 allows the government to take over all electrical power, gas, petroleum, fuels and minerals.

# EXECUTIVE ORDER 10998 allows the government to take over all food resources and farms.

# EXECUTIVE ORDER 11000 allows the government to mobilize civilians into work brigades under government supervision.

# EXECUTIVE ORDER 11001 allows the government to take over all health, education and welfare functions.

# EXECUTIVE ORDER 11002 designates the Postmaster General to operate a national registration of all persons.

# EXECUTIVE ORDER 11003 allows the government to take over all airports and aircraft, including commercial aircraft.

# EXECUTIVE ORDER 11004 allows the Housing and Finance Authority to relocate communities, build new housing with public funds, designate areas to be abandoned, and establish new locations for populations.

# EXECUTIVE ORDER 11005 allows the government to take over railroads, inland waterways and public storage facilities.

# EXECUTIVE ORDER 11051 specifies the responsibility of the Office of Emergency Planning and gives authorization to put all Executive Orders into effect in times of increased international tensions and economic or financial crisis.

# EXECUTIVE ORDER 11310 grants authority to the Department of Justice to enforce the plans set out in Executive Orders, to institute industrial support, to establish judicial and legislative liaison, to control all aliens, to operate penal and correctional institutions, and to advise and assist the President.


[edit on 17-8-2004 by outsider]

originally posted by Cargo
Welcome to the internet. You might be quick to judge the "Young Whipper Snappers" on their appearance in real life, as pointless as that is, but be careful not to do the same on the internet. Unless you wish to come across as a pointless, shallow and bland pseudo intellectual. The internet contains a vast and sprawling cosmopolitan populous. It is also a place where fantasy collides with reality.

Full marks Cargo- dead on. Out there young punks can be judged by their appearance, but in here the high and mighty can be judged by their content. If those regions of your head above the mouth are not up to spec, you may as well go back to the real world where a person's clothes can invalidate their views.

'PATRIOT authorizes the use of "sneak and peek" search warrants in connection with any federal crime, including misdemeanors. A "sneak and peek" warrant authorizes law enforcement officers to enter private premises without the occupant's permission or knowledge and without informing the occupant that such a search was conducted'

I did not realize that- I'm planning to check into it.

Check out the implications of this police power. The beginning of this scenario is taken from something that has happened to me several months ago. I'm 21, a former Marine (discharged early for a back injury), and I have an honest union job. I get pulled over, a cop wastes a good 20 minutes of my time just checking my info, then insists on field sobriety tests while I'm asking for a breath test so I can go.
He gets pissed and says, "is there some reason you can't just shut up and do as your told Marine?" (I had mentioned that I was on home awaiting orders status but not discharged yet). I lost my temper and glared at him, told him "You want to tell me your rank sir, or are you playing hot shot?" (i've not usually stupid, it was a momentary lapse). As it is, he got me for "the basic speed law" and my seat belt.

Under the PATRIOT Act though, if he had decided that my mannerisms were threatening he could have subdued me, played it up as an assault on his person, and before I was released from custody he could have gone through my to find anything else he might charge me with- not to mention simply to steal from me or disturb my belongings to piss me off.

Originally posted by TruthStrgnrThanFiction
when u guys leaving usa then?? if theres another attack and this police state seems to be put into action...would you leave america?? or stay in your paranoid state?

Are you nuts? This is our country. My ancestors where here before the Department of Homeland Security was. If and when the police state kicks into high gear I'll be the meanest most fanatical terrorist they ever came up against. Leave my arse- I'll try to take over!


[edit on 17-8-2004 by The Vagabond]

Originally posted by outsider
The Executive Order

Here's a few tidbits from the above link.

THE BILL OF RIGHTS

On June 8, 1789, James Madison proposed the Bills of Rights to the new Congress. Its eventual creation was the outcropping of arguments made in the respective State legislatures debating ratification of the new Constitution. Madison had previously been opposed to the establishment of the Bill of Rights, but the treatises of Thomas Jefferson convinced him of the necessity of such Constitutional amendments. The concept was simple, according to Madison, "That all power is originally vested in, and consequently derived from the people. That government is instituted and ought to be exercised for the benefit of the people; which consists in the enjoyment of life and liberty and the right of acquiring property, and generally of pursing and obtaining happiness and safety. That the people have an indubitable, unalienable, and indefeasible right to reform or change their government whenever it be found adverse or inadequate to the purpose of its institution."

He further advocated, "The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship...The people shall not be deprived or abridged of their right to speak, to write, or to publish their sentiments; and the freedom of the press, as one of the great bulwarks of liberty, shall be inviolable. The people shall not be restrained from peaceably assembling and consulting for their common good; nor for applying to the legislature by petitions or remonstrances for redress of their grievances...The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

The framework of this nation is embodied in the Bill of Rights, unequaled in its time, and surpassed by none to date. Madison also stated, "The rights of the people to be secured in their persons, their houses, their papers, and their other property from all unreasonable searches and seizures shall not be violated by warrants issued without probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, or not particularly describing the places to be searched, or the persons or things to be seized." He added, "In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial to be informed of the cause and nature of the accusation, to be confronted with his accusers and the witnesses against him; to have a compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor; and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense."

# EXECUTIVE ORDER 10990 allows the government to take over all modes of transportation and control of highways and seaports.

# EXECUTIVE ORDER 10995 allows the government to seize and control the communication media.

# EXECUTIVE ORDER 10997 allows the government to take over all electrical power, gas, petroleum, fuels and minerals.

# EXECUTIVE ORDER 10998 allows the government to take over all food resources and farms.

# EXECUTIVE ORDER 11000 allows the government to mobilize civilians into work brigades under government supervision.

# EXECUTIVE ORDER 11001 allows the government to take over all health, education and welfare functions.

# EXECUTIVE ORDER 11002 designates the Postmaster General to operate a national registration of all persons.

# EXECUTIVE ORDER 11003 allows the government to take over all airports and aircraft, including commercial aircraft.

# EXECUTIVE ORDER 11004 allows the Housing and Finance Authority to relocate communities, build new housing with public funds, designate areas to be abandoned, and establish new locations for populations.

# EXECUTIVE ORDER 11005 allows the government to take over railroads, inland waterways and public storage facilities.

# EXECUTIVE ORDER 11051 specifies the responsibility of the Office of Emergency Planning and gives authorization to put all Executive Orders into effect in times of increased international tensions and economic or financial crisis.

# EXECUTIVE ORDER 11310 grants authority to the Department of Justice to enforce the plans set out in Executive Orders, to institute industrial support, to establish judicial and legislative liaison, to control all aliens, to operate penal and correctional institutions, and to advise and assist the President.


[edit on 17-8-2004 by outsider]

Those executive orders were signed into law by John F Kennedy, a democrat concerned about the future of the nation should there be a nuclear strike - not a Republican president that extreemists believe is engineering a takeover of the country.

"Seize communicaton media" read funny, so I actually googled the executive order and examined it myself. Read it more closely.

"mobilize civilians into work brigades under government supervision" - not accurate. this order also allows for the training of, payment for, and care of, those workers.

Again - all these orders exist for a long gone era.

And the Constitution gives we the people the right to change the direction that our ELECTED government is taking us. We're all gonna vote, right?

Lets all talk to our neighbors and get them to vote too.

Put it like this -

It's all just about set up and in place.

You better really really hope you elect good men and women of integrity who will not and will never abuse these 'facilities', not once......cos you can be damn sure now those 'measures' have been passed and exist in your law they'll be on your statute books a long long time.

Maybe the Bush fans ought to consider their supposed 'liberal nightmare scenarios' with these new powers in existance, huh?

Remember to thank Dub-ya and Co. won't you? Heh heh heh.