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Is the USA becoming a Police State?

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posted on Aug, 10 2004 @ 02:22 PM
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GREAT article I came across, it has many many thought-provoking ideas.

www.house.gov...

POLICE STATE USA


Freedom is not defined by safety. Freedom is defined by the ability of citizens to live without government interference. Government cannot create a world without risks, nor would we really wish to live in such a fictional place. Only a totalitarian society would even claim absolute safety as a worthy ideal, because it would require total state control over its citizens lives. This doesnt stop governments, including our own, from seeking more control over and intrusion into our lives. As one Member of Congress stated to the press last week, people who dont want to be searched dont need to come on Capitol grounds. What an insult! The Capitol belongs to the American people who pay for it, not to Congress or the police.

....

Every generation must resist the temptation to believe that it lives in the most dangerous time in American history. The threat of Islamic terrorism is real, but it is not the greatest danger ever faced by our nation. This is not to dismiss the threat of terrorism, but rather to put it in perspective. Those who seek to whip the nation into a frenzy of fear do a disservice to a country that expelled the British, fought two world wars, and stared down the Soviet empire.

Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.


Please read the whole article before commenting, it's not long.

And I'd be happy to hear people's personal experiences in the United States about this issue, whether it be pro or con.

It's my thinking that the US has become far more restrictive of basic freedoms with the Patriot Act and having Herr Bush in power.




posted on Aug, 10 2004 @ 02:27 PM
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Just imagine how things will change when the next staged 'terrorist' attack takes place and they ramp up Patriot Act II.

The USA is now well on its way to becoming the world's pre-eminent example of a big brother totalitarian fascist police state.



posted on Aug, 10 2004 @ 02:32 PM
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Originally posted by The Merovingian
Just imagine how things will change when the next staged 'terrorist' attack takes place and they ramp up Patriot Act II.

The USA is now well on its way to becoming the world's pre-eminent example of a big brother totalitarian fascist police state.



Agreed. 1984 here we come.....



posted on Aug, 10 2004 @ 02:59 PM
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STAGED TERRORIST ATTACK??!!

You clueless... oh forget it.

You are right. Compairing Bush to Hitler. 100% right.

"How dare you search me. I know ther there was attempted bombings but don't you dare interfere with my life."

Is that It?

9/11 was staged... oh my god... what do you say to that?



posted on Aug, 10 2004 @ 03:07 PM
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I don't agree that 911 was staged but I have no doubt that many headline grabbing incidents are.

Southern New Mexico has a new prison- operated by contractors.
Why is this news worthy?
www.mtctrains.com/correctfac/nmotero.html

Think-
no 5th amendment
11 facilities in the U.S., one in Canada! and one in Australia!!

Patriot Act
Patriot2 (under another name)
FEMA
INS
DEA
etc.



posted on Aug, 10 2004 @ 03:14 PM
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Gadfly, the emperor has no clothes.

What are you saying? Contract run prisons mean "clockwork Orange" type rehabilitation camps? We have them where i live and no one comes out singing "dancing in the rain."

FEMA ya.... what?

INS.... hello?

Name one thing in the Patriot act that infringes on daily civil rights.
Wire Taps? They don't want YOU! They still need permission to tap.

They want the bad guys. He who is the guiltiest yells the loudest.



posted on Aug, 10 2004 @ 03:21 PM
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It's true. Some Americans are allowing the terrorists to win. I remember a speech by G. W. Bush where he said that the terrorists want to take Americans' rights and freedoms away. Well, the terrorists aren't doing it, it's the Government. As a result, those who run Government and the terrorists both win. All the while, you have the Americans freedoms going down the drain, with an ever increasing look of a militarized state in the media, with hardly any protests anywhere in America.

In my opinion, America's turning into a PoLiCe StAtE.

If Bush's rating go even further down, you might want to check out this thread.



posted on Aug, 10 2004 @ 03:23 PM
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CRM,
You might be interested in the following link:
RAPTOT
You also maybe interested in the following:
Will Trading Your Freedom for a Sense Of Security Really Make You Safe? Will Trading Your Freedom for a Sense Of Security Really Make You Safe?

[edit on 10-8-2004 by Kenshiro]



posted on Aug, 10 2004 @ 03:27 PM
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Answer the question.

What freedoms are being taken away?



posted on Aug, 10 2004 @ 03:32 PM
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Originally posted by crmanager
Answer the question.

What freedoms are being taken away?


Oh, you know, little things like...

- Needing warrants for arrests
- Unreasonable search and seizures

and my favorite:

- Suspending the writ of haebeus corpus

... very tiny things... nothing to worry about... right?



posted on Aug, 10 2004 @ 03:34 PM
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in a word, NO!

Get a grip here people, there has not been a single major hange in our rights in the last 25 years.



posted on Aug, 10 2004 @ 03:38 PM
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What Suspension? You mean for the guy wanting to blow up the Columbus MAll?

Arrests? When? Tell me where it happened?

Unreasonable search? What is unreasonable?



posted on Aug, 10 2004 @ 03:44 PM
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Originally posted by crmanager
What Suspension? You mean for the guy wanting to blow up the Columbus MAll?

Arrests? When? Tell me where it happened?

Unreasonable search? What is unreasonable?


1) I haven't read about that, so I can't comment.

2) Read my blurb below

3) Well... I dunno... the police coming to your house when you're not there, sans warrant, snooping around your private property... or even when you are there looking around... again -- no warrant.

It's very simple: Suspending the writ of haebeus corpus, which the PATRIOT act permits, means that once arrested you can be held for an indefinite amount of time without a trial or hearin and for no reason. The only reason they have to give is at the time of arrest say you are "suspected of terrorism".

Now, what's stopping the police or the FBI from labelling you as a suspected terrorist? Do you have an islamic name? Are you from the middle east? Well, you're on top of that list, buddy. You might pay your taxes and help your neighbor with painting his house ... but that doesn't matter! It requires absolutely no evidence against you.

FBI says: "You are under arrest for activites that may be attributed to terrorism"

"What acts?" you might ask.

FBI's response: "Don't worry about it."

They are under no legal obligation to tell you what evidence they have against you, nor are they under any obligation to bring you before a judge to justifty holding you prisoner.

If that isn't a removal of our rights, I don't know what is -- the fact that the government has that power.

I don't mind terrorists being arrested and held like that -- but how do you know who's the real terrorist? And how do you discriminate between people who really are or aren't?

The fact that it leaves the door open for them to come through my door at night, arrest me, and never let me see the light of day again without trial or evidence is disturbing and is a removal of the basic freedom of this country.



posted on Aug, 10 2004 @ 03:56 PM
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Hawk, you are right but...

The SAME (figuratively) rights were suspended during the CIVIL WAR. People freaked and everything went back to normal.

These are not normal times. We have to realize freedom is a living thing. It shrinks and grows.

We just need to realize that.



posted on Aug, 10 2004 @ 04:07 PM
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In October 1970 we had our own terror crisis when Quebec separatists tried to use murder and civilian bombings to further their agenda. (They murdered a Quebec cabinet minister and kidnapped British diplomat James Cross.

Prime Mininster Trudeau invoked a piece of legislation from 1914 called The War Measures Act
which went much further than the patriot act in suspending civil liberties. He was both praised and reviled for this but that is not my point.

The mayor of Vancouver (about as far away from the terror as you could be while still remaining in Canada) saw an opportunity. No more would he have to deal with the niceities of due process in his desire to crack down on the "hippies" who flocked to Canada's version of L.A.

Cops could (and did) conduct drug searches on a whim, you could be held incognito without benefit of counsel, and the mayor went so far as to threaten to use the legislation to "mandate haircuts"

The legislation has since been changed. Sometimes the best intentions can have the "wackiest" consequences. (And I never would have dreamed that Canada could have a "freedom lesson" for the U.S.)



posted on Aug, 10 2004 @ 04:11 PM
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Jakomo I read the piece by Ron Paul one of the few politicians in America today
Who has the balls to speak up?


When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long
.
As to your question, yes
America is becoming a police state, soon after it will become a prison state with there medicated populace rallying around there flag THE BARS and STARS
The funny part is that the rest of the world knows this is happening to them, but most of these Americans cant see it or they deny it,



posted on Aug, 10 2004 @ 04:19 PM
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Originally posted by crmanager
Hawk, you are right but...

The SAME (figuratively) rights were suspended during the CIVIL WAR. People freaked and everything went back to normal.

These are not normal times. We have to realize freedom is a living thing. It shrinks and grows.

We just need to realize that.


The Civil War was a bit different. It was not only 100+ years ago with a massive technology difference, people had different attitudes towards each other.

Lincoln was heavily chastised for suspending the writ... in fact, many people asked if he was legally able to do so, which it turns out, he wasn't.

We're a much bigger nation now, with different principles and outlooks than in 1860, and truth be told, this affects us now more than ever. Back then, it was a temporary deal for fairly acceptable reasons -- although I still don't condone the action then, either. Today, the law is permanent; and with our population being hundreds of times more than it was back then, it has a greater effect.

Lincoln was also a good and mindful President. One with values and morals and abilities our current President does not have... in fact, our current President scares the crap out of me.

It's much more dangerous now than during the Civil War. Even back then it was unprescedented... now it's even worse.

If I recall correctly, three people total were arrested and held without a trial for a durration of 3 (or was it 4) years (basically till the end of the Civil War) for suspected espionage against the North... it turns out that none of them were actually guilty. Scary, huh?

[edit: grammar]

[edit on 8-10-2004 by Hawk]



posted on Aug, 10 2004 @ 04:25 PM
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Originally posted by deevee

Sometimes the best intentions can have the "wackiest" consequences. (And I never would have dreamed that Canada could have a "freedom lesson" for the U.S.)


Perfect point that most people seem to forget or simply ignore.

If you allow them to violate your rights for a "saftey concern"(terrorism,drugs,ect) they will undoubtable be able to cross the line anytime they wish because guess what?..you already allowed them to cross that line...For what ever reason they decide to cross that line is irrelevant once you have allowed them once.



posted on Aug, 10 2004 @ 04:59 PM
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Originally posted by crmanager
Answer the question.

What freedoms are being taken away?

CRM,
I am going to assume that you did not peruse the link for Raptor (actually named Carnivore and Omivore) I will explain what this is for you.
They are programs that are by goverment mandate sitting on every ISP portal. Here is what they do.
Carnivore= scans emails and IM messaging and can either print the material found or save to disk.
Carnivore (DCS1000)
Omnivore= does a heck of a lot more. It scans the actual packets of information that is the very backbone of the internet. Note Omivore has been renamed as Dragonware. Dragonware

Note, These programs were both strongly opposed by senators and IT security experts, but after 9/11 and due to the Patriot Act. both programs are fully deployed and are in use.
Note, niether of these programs are intelligent enough to target only "suspected or People of interest" They scan everything.

So to further break this down, the goverment today is scanning all the email (yes including the spam) that you recieve and track.

Yes they are scanning your instant messages.

Yes they are scanning what I am tyring here.

Just last year there was a big stink betwenn the Antivirus industry and the goverment. The nexus of the problem, the goverment wanted the antivirus vendors to write an exclusion to a key logging software that the goverment wanted to deploy and use. Luckily for us McAfee as well as Symantec and Trend all turned this "request" down on the solid reasoning that if they were to make this exception and a hacker were to get ahold of the information, it would leave virtually unprotected and vulnerable to attack.
I have been in the IT Security buissness for nearly a decade now which is why I am very familiar with these issues and is also why I am providing you with links to the industries standard posts.

I do not know about you, but I beleive that the freedom of speech was one of the basic tenets of the American culture. I hold this as being very dear to me.
How is this going to affect me? How is it going to affect those I love?
This affect me and everyone directly as a direct infringement of our freedom of speech.



posted on Aug, 10 2004 @ 05:05 PM
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Why don't you go to New York and ask the policemen who stand guard with assault rifles. They will know rather or not America is becoming a police state.

If you're not too close to New York, you could ask the guy who was arrested in NC because he had videotape of some buildings. (On that note, if anyone here is afraid of people with camcorders looking at big buildings, you need to keep it to yourself so normal people won't lose respect for you.)

I've got news for the news channels and the politicians. I'm too busy practicing for poker tournaments to be afraid of anything but losing (and clowns). I won't vote for you, I won't watch your show more, and I wont horde duct tape and plastic. There is no money or influence for you here... leave me alone.




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