Appliance Disruptions Feared In Power Grid Test

It sounds as if the amount of variation to be allowed in the frequency of alternating current is quite minor. They mention an accumulated error in clocks connected to power line of up to 20 minutes per year. As clock speed is presumably proportional to frequency, that indicates a variation of .0166 Hertz, of the normal 60 Hertz.

reply to post by Ross 54



At that frequency, what else would be affected, thats the question.
I have read everything from traffic lights to security systems.

This gal thinks this might have somehting to do with the shifts
we have seen with the poles?


www.youtube.com...

And now for the CME angle....

We have this, from today.

NASA Finds Ways to Avert Effects of Solar Storms on Earth's Infrastructure

The long term solution to the possibility of a solar event of this magnitude would be to harden the power grid against such electrical surges. However, NASA has a short term solution that, while imperfect, just might allow the world to avoid being plunged into the Dark Ages, at least for a few months.

Using existing space probes that now surround the sun, NASA forecast computer models of solar storms before they erupt, detecting which parts of the solar system, including planets and operational space probes, would be affected. Work is now ongoing on a way to predict which power transformers would be affected by a solar storm.

The idea is that should a solar storm be imminent that would affect the power grid, the affected transformers would be taken off line. Residences and businesses would be subjected to several hours of power outages. However that is a minor consideration compared to the possibility of many weeks without power that a solar storm could cause. old.news.yahoo.com...

I touched on the topic of electro-magnetic pulses and their devastating impacts on the high voltage power grid about a year ago on The Power Line. The transformers that manage voltage on our transmission grid are very vulnerable to these pulses, normally caused by solar flares, and could take down huge parts of US and world electrical systems for days on end. Solar flares come in cycles, and our dependence on electronics and grid reliability has grown in the last decade, which was also a very calm period in the cycle of solar storms.

Power companies and RTOs claim that they have everything under control, but many engineers aren’t so sure. NASA predicts major solar flares in 2013 and 2014. There is a good story in the Washington Post this morning about how the new cycle of solar storms is already beginning.

The article points to what happened during a relatively minor period of solar activity in 1989 as a sign of what is to come in the next few years:

calhounpowerline.com...


And here is a good one too.

Scientific advisers to leaders in both the U.S. and UK suggested mitigation fixes several months ago:

And there is much that can be done to reduce risks. The possibilities include back-ups for crucial systems such as GPS, tougher protective shielding for satellites, and blocking devices to harden power grids; and replacements for aging scientific satellites are needed to provide advanced warnings.

Some of these measures can bear fruit quickly, while others will pay off over the longer-term. What is key now is to identify, test, and begin to deploy the best array of protective measures practicable, in parallel with reaching out to the public with information explaining the risks and the remedies. There is commitment on both sides of the Atlantic to doing exactly that.

www.hlswatch.com...

Originally posted by MaskedDebater
I suppose if someone is concerned about accuracy, they can fork over a little extra dough for a radio controlled clock. They remain accurate because they receive a low frequency AM broadcast signal vs. AC current synchronization.

But if you start messing with the pre programmed timer on my Mr. Coffee, we got problems!

Actually everyone posting on this thread has the ability to keep their computer clocks synchronized with a time server. There are several free programs that will synchronize your PC clock with a time server, though I think Windows can be configured to do it automatically. I had to switch one friend's PC from the default time server to the MIT time server (time.MIT.edu), which is the time server I use. It doesn't cost anything.

If you don't know how to get windows to automatically synchronize your PC clock, here's a free app you can use:

www.worldtimeserver.com...

I tried it and installed it for a friend and it works, though I don't use it myself.

I think the Mr Coffee clock on my coffee maker may be the only clock in my house that may be affected. My VCRs, cable box, microwave oven, watches, and computers won't be affected My electric alarm clock uses a crystal to keep time unlike the Mr Coffee clock. And my cell phone and wall clocks are battery powered. It's basically a non-issue for me and I suspect most everybody. I don't really care if my coffee maker clock gets off by 20 minutes in one year, which probably won't happen anyway because I have a couple of power outages a year (may only last 5 minutes) that make me reset the clock anyway, so I don't think it will ever get even 20 minutes off and I don't use that for an alarm anyway.

Originally posted by butcherguy
I see everyone worried about their clocks, but what about all our industries that use a 60 Hz power supply? What about all of those factories whose machines are driven by motors that require a 60Hz power supply?

How will this affect newer variable frequency drives that are so popular to save energy today in industry?

All I have are questions. No answers, sorry.

I have answers, see below.

Originally posted by tnhiker
This doesn't make sense at all. Too many things require 60Hz to operate. Hell, most relays and breakers are set to trip at variances of .3Hz. Ever seen the wrong frequency input to a transformer? It aint pretty.

Makes no sense what so ever.

To put it in perspective, the nominal number of cycles per day at 60 Hz is roughly 60*60*60*24= 5 184 000
what they are saying is the number of cycles per day may vary from roughly 5 183 100 to 5 184 900. Compare that 5 184 900 to 60 Hz to see if it will trip any breakers:

5 184 900 / 60*60*24 = 60.01042

So if the breaker trips at 0.3 Hz away from 60 Hz, then the expected amount of variation is 30 times lower than what it would take to trip the breaker, provided your claim about the 0.3 Hz trip level is true.

If you know much about electrical engineering, you'll know that most devices (other than certain specific types of clocks) aren't going to be affected by such a small deviation, and the only reason the clocks are is because they are actually counting those cycles to keep time so it could be off 14 seconds in one day.

Originally posted by butcherguy
Exactly.

So much of our equipment today is very sensitive to frequency variation.

The example you described doesn't even begin to support an assertion that "equipment today is very sensitive to frequency variation", a slipping belt could be a huge problem and doesn't show that anything is "very sensitive".

Originally posted by tnhiker
Well, VFD's are probably gonna have to be redesigned to make them work correctly. Also what about the new electric vehicles and the EVSE that controls power? It generates a signal between it and the car for communication, that could be disrupted.
It doesn't say how much they are going to allow the frequency to drift, and obviously a few 0.1Hz wont make much of a difference, but if they go 1Hz or more its gonna be nasty.

OK you just said .1 Hz or a little more won't make much difference.

You can indeed calculate the frequency deviations from the figures they gave.
"East Coast clocks may run as much as 20 minutes fast over a year"
"clocks that rely on the grid will gain 14 seconds per day, according to the company's presentation."
I used the latter statement for the math I used above. The 20 minutes a year works out to a much smaller deviation, but that's more of an average.

reply to post by Arbitrageur
Thanks for posting, now we have an idea of how much deviation there will be.

Doesn't seem like any reason to worry.

reply to post by Arbitrageur


So this is really a tiny change then? Thank you for explaining that in mathamatics rather than jargon.. i really got to grips with the math.. being a programmer and all.

There really seems like nothing, but maybe some clocks that rely on this "sync" to keep track of time if i understand this correctly.

Still curious as to why they wanted to break it and see what happens... when shifting the time by only 14 seconds a day is hardly breaking anything.

Also.. am i wrong then in my assumption that CME's can create electrical currents along our standard cables connected to our standard transformers connected to the grid? Or is my understanding of the 1856 incident way off and need some more schooling?!?!

Cheers for adding to this interesting thread!

Originally posted by w3nd1g0

Also.. am i wrong then in my assumption that CME's can create electrical currents along our standard cables connected to our standard transformers connected to the grid? Or is my understanding of the 1856 incident way off and need some more schooling?!?!

Cheers for adding to this interesting thread!

With a CME impact on the magnetosphere, you get what's known as geomagnetic heave. The Earth's magnetic field starts to do this long, slow bucking back and forth, as the magnetosphere is buffeted by the particle impact.

When that happens, the moving magnetic field induces currents in electrical conductors. This is generally seen on long conductors, and it's worse when one of the return paths is/can be the ground. The longer the wire, the worse the problem.

It shows up the most on long AC cross-country transmission lines, not only because they're long, but also because they invariably have a buried counterpoise system, which is a big help during lightning storms, but is less helpful during CMEs.

The induced current "looks" like a superimposed DC current to the transformers at both ends.

That's an issue, because the transformers are not designed for DC currents. What happens is something we call in the biz "walking off the B/H curve" - the transformer's core saturates with flux. At that point, it quits being a transformer and starts being a short circuit. Bad things then occur, mostly related to explosions and melting.

If the transformer cores had been designed for DC (you can gap the cores) it would be less of an issue, but it makes them less efficient. If the circuit was designed to block DC, it would be less of an issue. If the circuit was designed to sense saturation and open the circuit, it would be less of an issue. These things cost money, so they don't do them.

Originally posted by w3nd1g0

Still curious as to why they wanted to break it and see what happens... when shifting the time by only 14 seconds a day is hardly breaking anything.

Yes, its still yet to be seen the effectst this has. Who knows what they are really up to anyhow.

In my neck of the woods, this is going to have ramifications, as I said. Not everyone lives
next to a cell tower, and there are still lots of civilized places that dont have cell phone reception,
or broadband.



Trust me, not everyone lives on an iphone.

In my area I've noticed voltage fluctuations. My high efficiency lighting is fine but my UPS keeps clicking into boost mode or over voltage trim(its over sensitive). Not sure if this is a common occurrence or not but it would be annoying to someone with standard incandescent bulbs that kept dimming.

A recent AP report states that there is a proposal in place to change the frequency various parts of the national electrical grid run at. The frequency differences will be minor, but will force an end to the national grid as we know it. The only way frequencies can be different at all in separate locations around the nation is to not have a grid at all. They are attempting to childishly play this down as something that will mess up clocks. But what it really means is that they are going to dismantle the national power grid entirely.

Link Link Link

Sounds like a bad idea to me too. Not just clocks, but things like computer power supplies, household transformers (not just wall-warts, but many embedded in various electronics), ballasts for florescent lighting, reference signal for some electric motor or radio applications, etc. I'm also curious as to what HAM radio operators would say about this. It seems to make sense from an electronics standpoint that noisy electricity is bad electricity, and things causing any phase mismatch in AC means the peaks and troughs aren't going to line up and you can say bye-bye to that nice 60Hz sine that almost everything needs to function correctly.

In other words... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?

Might be time to invest in motor generator systems that produce isolated AC for certain applications where good quality AC is needed, but such expensive power conditioning shouldn't be necessary in the first place for uses outside of heavy industry if the grid is working as originally intended. (But then again, maybe selling this kind of equipment part of badly thought out sounding plan?)

Originally posted by mwc273

A recent AP report states that there is a proposal in place to change the frequency various parts of the national electrical grid run at. The frequency differences will be minor, but will force an end to the national grid as we know it. The only way frequencies can be different at all in separate locations around the nation is to not have a grid at all. They are attempting to childishly play this down as something that will mess up clocks. But what it really means is that they are going to dismantle the national power grid entirely.

Link Link Link

Thanks for the info!

Its about time we should be seeing some disruptions somewhere, its mid July.

i think its already started on three different computers at three different locations in last 2 ddayys when playing facebook games it gave me an synch error computers internal clock out of synch with facebook servers plase reset internal clock
all three computers were miles apart