Time does NOT exist

Originally posted by -PLB-
reply to post by EthanT

 

We also need space in order to perceive anything, so I do not think time is more fundamental.

I agree. See my post above on CCC. I was just putting more emphasis on time because of the title of the thread. But, you're right, this conversation isn't really complete without including space, as well.

Originally posted by Xcathdra

Originally posted by Matrix Rising
I think what he says in the video makes sense. He's essentially saying everything is a snapshot or a now. Look at your room.

The future is now..... is now..... is now..... is now..... is now..... is now..... is now..... is now.....

Might be better to say:

The present is now..... is now..... is now..... is now..... is now..... is now..... is now..... is now.....

and, perhaps, the past and future are an illusion. We cannot access the past, nor can we access the future. All we have is the present. The eternal now that lasts forever, but is gone in a flash.

"The distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion" - Albert Einstein

Time does exist, only it isn't linear. It's spherical. We are unable to travel though the sphere. Yet.

Originally posted by phishyblankwaters
reply to post by Sly1one

 

This is why it is said Astronauts age differently than people on earth. The speed at which you are traveling determines how you experience or measure the illusion known as time...

Well yeah, because in earth orbit, even low earth orbit, they are travelling incredibly fast. compared to us, they are travelling faster towards the speed of light than we are, so time slows down for them while going on blissfully unaware for us.

This is exactly what I was trying to illustrate in my examples that "SPEED" in relation to "origin" (lightspeed) determines the way in which you experience "time"...time ultimately from my estimation being nothing more than movement of mass through points in space. This might be where the "space-time" relation comes from as mass weaves its way through space its creates "time" in the sense that we percieve it.

However you have to at least consider that even the concept of "linear" time could also be an illusinary construct by our minds to help us understand and percieve our reality. Past-present-future could be nothing more than human psychological constructs that help us break down and organize "movement of mass through space" just so we can understand what is going on around us. Does a cell that went through mitosis recognize or understand its past before mitosis? Does an electron know where it was prior to its current location in its orbit? does it recognize where it will be in its orbit? If it doesn't then it would imply that "awareness" itself is creating "time".

it's only micoseconds, but it indeed has been tested.

Time is more than a term we use to describe things. Time does indeed exist as events happen in sequence, if there were no passage of time, all things would be at once, and our current reality does not function in this method.

Is there not a observable perspective in relation to "ours" that it would appear everything is indeed happening at once? At the speed of light would not everything appear to be happening at once?

Granted, time could merely be an illusion for us as we are inside a larger system, but the model for time fits perfectly with our reality, and can be measured and repeated.

Well if time COULD be merely an illusion yet the model fits perfect with our reality that would imply that our reailty COULD also be an illusion no?

Einstein postulated that time and space are linked, and that gravity is actually a bend in space/time, as an object travels faster towards the speed of light it's mass increases, thus it would have a larger impact on the space around it, and therefore time.

I agree time and space are "linked" but so is "mass" too in that equation. The movement of mass through/accross points in space create what is percieved as "time" this we agree on.

The real question is, what mechanics actually make time work? What mechanism actually allows this to take place, if at all?

Could be all psychological really. If we are going to question the "nautre" of observable things (movement of mass through space and time) we must also question the nature by which we observe and analyze them ie: awareness and perception which are ultimately filtered through our psyche...

The fact that I can type this, click "reply" and see it posted proves there is something going on allowing events to happen in a linear fashion. If time didn't exist, this reply would have been posted at the exact same instant as the thread.

Is there not a observation point in relation to "you typing and hitting reply" that could be percieved as both actions in the same instant? If you were traveling/moving significantly faster than me yet I was percieving your actions I could observe but your whole lifespan in a single "instant"?

Time might be an illusion, but I can use "time" to tell me when the sun should rise, and low and behold, it did.

I agree completely time is very practical and usefull for measurement purposes...which is all you are doing when you are watching the sun set and rise...watching movement...that being "useful" to you in your everday life planting crops, making it to work in time etc, doesn't make it a real "thing" that exists outside of earth or "aware beings with an shedule to keep"...This is why I believe that time is a construct of the human psyche.

Instead of arguing back and forth that it doesn't exist, we should start investigating HOW it works, not if it works.

I complely agree however we might be heading in different directions searching for "how it works" one is physics and one is psychological.

Originally posted by EthanT
Instead, there is a series of "eternal nows" each seperate from the other with their own seperate configuration. It's the relationship between these seperate nows that create the illusion of time, similar to how a movie is a sequence of still shots but the illusion of continuous motion is created because the stills are shot at a speed greater than what our eye can detect.

I am surprised and a bit disappointed to read this because it's a theory I came up with years ago and have shared with friends over the years, apparently it wasn't as unique as I thought, LOL! My version of it goes that all moments of time exist and are fixed points like pages stacked together, and what we perceive as time is actually our movement across these "pages". Most believers are probably familiar with the concept of God being "omnipresent", IE, not limited by time or space but rather existing in all times and places at once. I've used this theory to explain the possibility that while we only see the "page" we are in at the moment because we're traveling across the pages, God sees all the pages at once. Anyway, thanks for the clip, will be watching it this evening

reply to post by Warpthal


I don't imagine, that the earth traverses space around the sun, in even divisions of darkness and light and that upon completion, is called a day. Which is then in turn percieved as a unit of time. It takes the objects, space,
gravity, motion, light, consciousness and time, for this to happen.

I think that for the most part perception is what matters to us and in that way time has to be very real

reply to post by iforget


Thank you so much for helping me out there.
That's really bad.
I may be all flocked up ! But damn it I'm right.

Originally posted by Sly1one

Originally posted by phishyblankwaters
reply to post by Sly1one

 

This is why it is said Astronauts age differently than people on earth. The speed at which you are traveling determines how you experience or measure the illusion known as time...

Well yeah, because in earth orbit, even low earth orbit, they are travelling incredibly fast. compared to us, they are travelling faster towards the speed of light than we are, so time slows down for them while going on blissfully unaware for us.

This is exactly what I was trying to illustrate in my examples that "SPEED" in relation to "origin" (lightspeed) determines the way in which you experience "time"...time ultimately from my estimation being nothing more than movement of mass through points in space. This might be where the "space-time" relation comes from as mass weaves its way through space its creates "time" in the sense that we percieve it.

Time is also effected by mass/energy curving spacetime. For example, your feet are moving through time slower than your head, because they are deeper in the gravitational well of the Earth. (well, assuming you're not doing a headstand while you're reading this, in which case the opposite would be true)

So, time is different for the astronauts for two reasons:

(1) Speed relative to us (Special Relativity)
(2) Higher in the gravitational field of the Earth (General Relativity)

Two relativistic effects. If effect #2 wasn't accounted for in GPS, it would build up huge errors in position over "time".

By the way, I've found asking people "Did you know your feet are moving through time slower than your head?" makes for a great ice breaker at parties. Try it out some time

the worst invention in history is the clock. we latch on to it to perceive time.

and if time is perspective, then ask a blind man if experiences the passage of time.

reply to post by EthanT



I have great success just telling people they have their head up their arse.
Sometimes they tell me.

I'm ok , I'm over it.

I'm Not a scientist [don't hold a phd or degrees in science] but my theory on time is rather different than any of he mainstream theory's.
We look at time as past to present to future always going forward where as i do not think this is the case.
It is my belief that everything that has happened or is going to happen happened in the blink of an eye [one instance] like a spark nothing light nothing.
The illusion of time therefore is just to divide each event and placed there to limit us.
The frame by frame explanation is a good one like opening a box of photo's [the box being time]and looking through each one like a famed event.
maybe sometimes someone has the ability to cross from frame to frame or look from frame to frame and This may explain why we get report's of ghosts, ufo's and occult practises/prophecies.
It may also explain the de ja vu feeling many of us encounter through out our lifes.
just my take on it.

reply to post by Sly1one

If it doesn't then it would imply that "awareness" itself is creating "time".

This is also my perception.....there really is no time, its all perception based on awareness. There is truly no now...once you say now its then. lol

In a literal sense there is simply no time. And like you also said, space time and traveling the speed of light. Everything is happening all at once in a truer sense.

Mind boggling, yes, but oh so much fun to think about.

reply to post by EthanT


Time exists in the one form that it matters; as our interpretation. I'm pretty sure if I were still at work now driving I would of crashed long ago, too much driving for too long a time, does time not exist???

Originally posted by randomname
the worst invention in history is the clock. we latch on to it to perceive time.

and if time is perspective, then ask a blind man if experiences the passage of time.

Actually this is a great thought experiment however pespective is more than visual observation. He would be able to "feel" the effects of movement without being able to see. If a car ran him over he would still be able to percieve that movement through other means than visual.

The visual is a dominant sensor of "observation" althought not the only one available to understand the world we live in. I couldn't imagine what reality it like for a blind man...

The problem with Philosophy is that since the "time" of Socrates, the same topics have been discussed without ever coming to a resolution. There exists no right or wrong in philosophy, no beginning and no end to discussion.

The reality it seems to me is that time, a simple measuring device, must exist for any semblance of order; It is even necessary to to our survival. We plant and harvest at the wrong "times" we starve. We cross a busy intersection at the wrong "time" we die. We show up for work at the wrong "time" often enough we loose our job and our means of earning a living.

I'd say the issue is not whether or not "time", a means of measurement exists or not, but rather why is the word being used to describe things unrelated to "time" in the first place. It seems the real dilemma is the failure to invent new words or language to describe things for which the word "time" is inadequate.

Personally, I think this discussion comes up when physicists have hit a brick wall and are at a loss for news of discovery to share in idle conversation or fill the pages of scientific publications; not to mention justify their work. Muddy the water with the ever present time question to keep everyone distracted as the physics community has a temporary brain fart.

But then - What if C-A-T really spelled Dog (all credit for this bit of wisdom to the character Ogre in Revenge of the Nerds 2)?

reply to post by akushla99


I am a firm beleiver that everything happens at once. I say this because I think that conciousness is eternal and for it to be eternal it must loop.

Now this is a topic that strikes home....I am posting to subscribe to this thread, will watch the video when I get home tonight and try and relate some of my experiences with time.

I can hold my breath for 3 minutes.. If time does not exist .. did I even hold my breath? What is breath in this scenario?

Originally posted by SavedOne
I am surprised and a bit disappointed to read this because it's a theory I came up with years ago and have shared with friends over the years, apparently it wasn't as unique as I thought, LOL! My version of it goes that all moments of time exist and are fixed points like pages stacked together, and what we perceive as time is actually our movement across these "pages". Most believers are probably familiar with the concept of God being "omnipresent", IE, not limited by time or space but rather existing in all times and places at once. I've used this theory to explain the possibility that while we only see the "page" we are in at the moment because we're traveling across the pages, God sees all the pages at once. Anyway, thanks for the clip, will be watching it this evening

This isn't too far from a description commonly used in relativity. Sean Carrol, who wrote my favorite General Relativity textbook, has used it more than once.

Basically, it compares spacetime (our Universe) to a loaf of bread. Time is represented along the length of the loaf, increasing towards one end. Each (infinitesimally thin) slice of bread represents a slice of space. So, each successive slice along the loaf represents that region of space at a later time.

(The relativity of simultaneity is explained by the fact that one observers slice may be tilted with respect to another observer's slice, so they don't agree on what constitutes a set of simultaneous events. But, none of that matters for what we're talking about.)

What's important here is that the loaf of bread represents ALL of spacetime - ALL space, and ALL time (past and future). We're stuck in the loaf and have to experience time linearly and take in one event at a time.

But, it's been postulated that the WHOLE loaf may exist ("now"). The future is already out there, we just have to wait to get there. Now, if you can imagine extracting yourself from the loaf and view it from the outside, you could see the whole history of the Universe (past and future) all at once. (Your analogy to God comes in here!)

Anyhow, I don't totally buy into this idea. For one, it really makes you wonder about free will. I don't believe the future is truly fixed. If it was, this analogy would make it seem like we're just following some premade script and really have no choice in how it ends. In addition, I don't think this view really jives up with quantum mechanics, either.