The United States was not founded in Christianity? I beg to differ.

The United States was founded on religious freedom.

Anytime you have a religion, any religion connected with state you have problems.

God, don't people ever learn from past historial mistakes, war, hate, violence, controlling what another person may wear, say or travel?

Simply look at all the problems the Middle Eastern countries that are ruled by religion are having.

How many people must die in the name of all the many gods before you all wake the frack up?

IMO - Religions manipulate and their main agenda is control.

Everyone should be allowed to have their own religious / spiritual beliefs as long as they do not hurt or kill another being (animal or human).

Harm none, play nice, don't try to control what another person believes as long as that person is not hurting anyone.

Absolutely, state and religion united is a big no no............look at how many people were boiled in oil, burned at the stake, hung, drawn and quartered all for not holding to the "kings belief".

Will humanity ever grow up.

Our fore fathers came over here to get away from that frap.

Yes, many were "Puritans" according to the history books (which may or may not be accurate).

But this country while in the beginning was populated by a Christian majority was founded on religious freedom period.

Do not tell me what I can or cannot believe, that is not trying to save my soul, that is simply trying to control what my mind and heart believe, nothing more but trying to control another person's free will.

Originally posted by ExistentialNightmare

Originally posted by Durchlaucht
reply to post by Lemon.Fresh

 

What a load of BULL #!! There is more than enough evidence that most of the "founding fathers" were ATHEIEST and and best SECULARIST!!

You are just one of the loosing morons that can't separate your bible from your consitution. Get over yourslef and get a life!!!!

Couldn't have put it better myself; The constitute demands that church is separate from states; that means you can practice your believe in your OWN time; you are free to express yourself; and so is a Muslim, so is a Scientologist, so is a Mormon.

Want religion? The constitution states you can have it. Just don't push it onto the rest of us.

Which is what the Bible says as well.

Go read it sometime (I linked some verse that say as much in the OP and throughout the thread). You have the free will to do as you please.

reply to post by Annee


Well put Annee, well put.

reply to post by Lemon.Fresh


reply to post by Lemon.Fresh


I found this web site a while back, Nothing better than the horses mouth,
books, letters, and other documents written by the founders themselves.

www.practicalmanliness.com...

Examples,

George Washington

FIRST U.S. PRESIDENT; RATIFIER OF THE U. S. CONSTITUTION

You do well to wish to learn our arts and ways of life, and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. These will make you a greater and happier people than you are.[1. George Washington, The Writings of Washington, John C. Fitzpatrick, editor (Washington: Government Printing Office, 1932), Vol. XV, p. 55, from his speech to the Delaware Indian Chiefs on May 12, 1779.]

To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian.[2. George Washington, The Writings of Washington, John C. Fitzpatrick, editor (Washington: Government Printing Office, 1932), Vol. XI, pp. 342-343, General Orders of May 2, 1778.]

John Adams

SECOND U.S. PRESIDENT; RATIFIER OF THE U. S. CONSTITUTION

The Christian religion is, above all the religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of wisdom, virtue, equity and humanity.[3. John Adams, Works, Vol. III, p. 421, diary entry for July 26, 1796.]

I have examined all religions, and the result is that the Bible is the best book in the world.[4. John Adams, Works, Vol. X, p. 85, to Thomas Jefferson on December 25, 1813.]

Thomas Jefferson

THIRD U.S. PRESIDENT; DRAFTER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE

[Editor's Note: Although Thomas Jefferson did claim to be a Christian, he did not believe that the Bible was entirely true and was, therefore, not a real Christian.]

I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ.[5. Thomas Jefferson, The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, Albert Ellery Bergh, editor (Washington, D.C.: The Thomas Jefferson Memorial Association, 1904), Vol. XIV, p. 385, to Charles Thomson on January 9, 1816.]

The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of man.[6. Thomas Jefferson, The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, Albert Bergh, editor (Washington, D. C.: Thomas Jefferson Memorial Assoc., 1904), Vol. XV, p. 383, to Dr. Benjamin Waterhouse on June 26, 1822.]

James Madison

FOURTH U.S. PRESIDENT; RATIFIER OF THE U. S. CONSTITUTION

A watchful eye must be kept on ourselves lest, while we are building ideal monuments of renown and bliss here, we neglect to have our names enrolled in the Annals of Heaven.[7. James Madison, Letters and Other Writings of James Madison (New York: R. Worthington, 1884), Vol. I, pp. 5-6, to William Bradford on November 9, 1772.]

…the best & purest religion, the Christian religion…[8. Religion and Politics in the Early Republic: Jasper Adams and the Church-State Debate, Daniel L. Dreisbach, ed. (Kentucky: University Press of Kentucky, 1996), p. 117.]

John Quincy Adams

SIXTH U.S. PRESIDENT

My hopes of a future life are all founded upon the Gospel of Christ…[9. John Adams and John Quincy Adams, The Selected Writings of John and John Quincy Adams, Adrienne Koch and William Peden, editors (New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 1946), p. 292, John Quincy Adams to John Adams, January 3, 1817.]

Never since the foundation of the world have the prospects of mankind been more encouraging to that hope than they appear to be at the present time. And may the associated distribution of the Bible proceed and prosper till the Lord shall have made “bare His holy arm in the eyes of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God” [Isaiah 52:10].[10. Life of John Quincy Adams, W. H. Seward, editor (Auburn, NY: Derby, Miller & Company, 1849), p. 248.]

There is another site with the actually letters, I will see if I can find it, I didn't read through all the post sorry if all this has been posted.

Samuel Adams

SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; RATIFIER OF THE U. S. CONSTITUTION

I . . . recommend my Soul to that Almighty Being who gave it, and my body I commit to the dust, relying upon the merits of Jesus Christ for a pardon of all my sins.[11. From the Last Will & Testament of Samuel Adams, attested December 29, 1790; see also Samuel Adams, Life & Public Services of Samuel Adams, William V. Wells, editor (Boston: Little, Brown & Co, 1865), Vol. III, p. 379, "Last Will and Testament of Samuel Adams".]

Elias Boudinot

PRESIDENT OF CONGRESS; FRAMER OF THE BILL OF RIGHTS

In short, were you to ask me to recommend the most valuable book in the world, I should fix on the Bible as the most instructive both to the wise and ignorant.[12. Elias Boudinot, The Age of Revelation, or the Age of Reason Shewn to be An Age of Infidelity (Philadelphia: Asbury Dickins, 1801), p. xv, from his "Dedication: Letter to his daughter Susan Bradford".]

Charles Carroll

SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE

Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime & pure, which denounces against the wicked eternal misery, and insured to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments.[13. Bernard C. Steiner, The Life and Correspondence of James McHenry (Cleveland: The Burrows Brothers, 1907), p. 475. In a letter from Charles Carroll to James McHenry of November 4, 1800.]

Benjamin Franklin

SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; RATIFIER OF THE U.S. CONSTITUTION

[Editor's Note: In his youth, Benjamin Franklin most likely was a deist. As he grew older, however, his position changed. Though it is doubtful whether he became a Christian, he did acknowledge many Biblical principles.]

As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and His religion as He left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see.[14. Benjamin Franklin, Works of Benjamin Franklin, John Bigelow, editor (New York: G.P. Putnam's Sons, 1904), p. 185, to Ezra Stiles, March 9, 1790.]

reply to post by Lemon.Fresh

Which is what the Bible says as well.

Does it? Have you got a passage reference for that? Which translation?

Where does the bible speak for secularism or promote it over a theocracy?

"Whosoever ... abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God." -- 2 John 9

"If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you ... Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die." -- Dt.13:6-10

"For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist." -- 2 John 7

skepticsannotatedbible.com...
www.bible.cc...

Originally posted by NiNjABackflip
The Bill of Rights and the Constitution were derived from John Locke philosophies, the English Bill of Rights and the Magna Carta if I'm not mistaken, not the bible. Christianity was founded in Platoism. The common theme is philosophy, not religion.

The facts do not support your claims:

In 1669, John Locke assisted in the drafting of the Carolina constitution under which no man could be a citizen unless he acknowledged God, was a member of a church, and used no “reproachful, reviling, or abusive language” against any religion.

‡ How can the constitutional requirement that no one can become a citizen unless he acknowledges God; be a member of a church; and (3) not attack religion, be considered a secular political philosophy?
Many of Locke's political ideas were specifically drawn from British theologian Richard Hooker (1554-1600), whom Locke quotes heavily in approbation throughout his own political writings.

‡ If Locke draws so heavily from (and frequently cites) a theologian throughout his own political works, how can it be true that his political philosophies were totally secular?
In his most famous political work, his Two Treatises of Government, Locke set forth the belief that successful governments could be built only upon the transcendent, unchanging principles of natural law that were a subset of God's law. For example, he declared:

[T]he Law of Nature stands as an eternal rule to all men, legislators as well as others. The rules that they make for other men's actions must . . . be conformable to the Law of Nature, i.e., to the will of God.

[L]aws human must be made according to the general laws of Nature, and without contradiction to any positive law of Scripture, otherwise they are ill made.

‡ How can Locke's declaration that the laws of legislators must be conformable “to the will of God” and that human laws cannot contradict “any positive law of Scripture” be considered part of a secular political philosophy?
Locke's Two Treatises of Government were heavily relied upon by the American Founding Fathers. In fact, signer of the Declaration Richard Henry Lee declared that the Declaration itself was “copied from Locke's Treatise on Government.” Yet so heavily did Locke draw from the Bible in developing his political theories that in his first treatise on government, he invoked the Bible in one thousand three hundred and forty nine references; in his second treatise, he cited it one hundred and fifty seven times.

‡ How can so many references to the Bible in Locke's most famous political work be reconciled with the charge that his political philosophies were totally secular?
While many today classify John Locke as a deist, secular thinker, or a forerunner of deism, previous generations classified John Locke as a theologian.

‡ How can the charge that Locke's political philosophies were totally secular be squared with the fact that he was long considered a theologian?
John Locke's many writings included a verse-by-verse commentary on Paul's Epistles. He also compiled a topical Bible, which he called a Common Place-Book to the Holy Bible, that listed the verses in the Bible, subject by subject. Then when anti-religious enlightenment thinkers attacked Christianity, Locke defended it in his book, The Reasonableness of Christianity as Delivered in the Scriptures. And then when he was attacked for defending Christianity in that first work, he responded with the work, A Vindication of the Reasonableness of Christianity. Still being attacked two years later, Locke wrote, A Second Vindication of the Reasonableness of Christianity. 8 No wonder he was considered a theologian by his peers and by subsequent generations!

‡ How can a theologian who wrote so many books on the writings and doctrines of the Bible and Christianity (and who frequently cited the Scriptures in his political writings) also be a writer whose political philosophies were totally secular?
Significantly, when during the Founding Era it was charged that Locke was a secular writer, it drew a sharp response from law professor James Wilson - a signer of the Constitution and an original Justice on the U. S. Supreme Court. Wilson declared:

I am equally far from believing that Mr. Locke was a friend to infidelity [a disbelief in the Bible and in Christianity]. . . . The high reputation which he deservedly acquired for his enlightened attachment to the mild and tolerating doctrines of Christianity secured to him the esteem and confidence of those who were its friends. The same high and deserved reputation inspired others of very different views and characters . . . to diffuse a fascinating kind of lustre over their own tenets of a dark and sable hue. The consequence has been that the writings of Mr. Locke, one of the most able, most sincere, and most amiable assertors of Christianity and true philosophy, have been perverted to purposes which he would have deprecated and prevented [disapproved and opposed] had he discovered or foreseen them.

‡ How can the charge that political philosophies were totally secular be explained with the claim by such a prominent legal authorities that Locke was “one of the most able, most sincere, and most amiable assertors of Christianity”?


Source

It has been proven that over 60% of of the writings of Locke, Blackstone and Montesquieu were on the Bible and Christianity.

reply to post by Lemon.Fresh


There is a huge difference between believeing in God and being a Christrian. Just because you attach Christ to God does not mean that everyone else does. The founding fathers certianly didn't. Even if they had their actions as slave owners proved they didn't practice what they preached.

reply to post by sligtlyskeptical


Another ad hominem. Please stick to the topic, which is not slavery.

Man is not perfect. Their governments will not be perfect. This does not negate the fact put forth in the OP.

reply to post by ExistentialNightmare


I do. It is throughout the thread, which I doubt you read.

It is in the OP, which I doubt you read.

Originally posted by Jobeycool
Get this in your thick skulls.The Supreme Court has Moses and a Statue of the Ten Commandments and you are saying we do not have a christian nation in our past.One has to be dumb founded at the insanity with this subject with just this evidence alone.

edit on 22-6-2011 by Jobeycool because: (no reason given)

Moses and the Ten Commandments came before Christ, thus to say they reflect Christianity is completely false. One should be careful in calling people dumb lest the label quickly gets put on you.

Again, belief in God and Christianity are completely diffferent things. Those arguing for the OP don't seem to grasp this concept, no matter what evidence is put in front of them.

Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh
reply to post by sligtlyskeptical

 

Another ad hominem. Please stick to the topic, which is not slavery.

Man is not perfect. Their governments will not be perfect. This does not negate the fact put forth in the OP.

The facts put forth in the Op are not facts but your own perception that a belief in God equals Christianity. It does not and no matter how much you argue it, it never will. i'm done here because you refuse to address the root cause of your musunderstanding.

Christians invaded America first. They are still the majority. Let's assume my point about them not wanting government and religion to mingle is fallacious. Let's says this IS a Christian nation. What does that insinuate? Are Christians privileged? Are atheists lesser citizens with fewer rights? Should they be deported? Are members of other religions not so bad because they have a god which Christians know is really their god?

reply to post by sligtlyskeptical


So it is my perception that those verse exist.

All the quotations that others have port forth are mine and their perceptions.

Christian Deism is my perception.

The use of the English language is my perception.

I am glad you are choosing to remove yourself, because . . . quite frankly, you have provided no evidence to the contrary. Just a bunch of mindless knee-jerk yammering.

reply to post by gentledissident


Perhaps you should read the whole thread.

Nowhere id I say the United States was a Christian nation. We are not.

The rest of your post has been addressed already.

Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh Nowhere id I say the United States was a Christian nation. We are not.

Then, what point are you trying to make?

reply to post by Lemon.Fresh


If I want to read fairytales, then I will grab a copy of the Grimm Brothers. It is a much better and far more fasinating read I asure you!! The bible is nothing more than complete crap!!

Reply to post by Durchlaucht

Thank you for your off-topic opinion.

Be on your way now.


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

Reply to post by gentledissident

That the U.S. was founded in Christianity. I think I made that fairly obvious in my thread title.


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

reply to post by Lemon.Fresh


NO, christian deism is you DELUSSION!!!!