The United States was not founded in Christianity? I beg to differ.

reply to post by Lemon.Fresh


I was under the impression that the entire reason this country was founded was because the founders wished to have religious freedom. Not to hold their own religion above another.

Many of the founders were Diests, which while someone mentioned is an offshoot of Christianity, it doesn't follow what people are taught in Sunday School.

"In his seminal Letter on Toleration (1689), John Locke insisted that Muslims and all others who believed in God be tolerated in England. Campaigning for religious freedom in Virginia, Jefferson followed Locke, his idol, in demanding recognition of the religious rights of the "Mahamdan," the Jew and the "pagan." Supporting Jefferson was his old ally, Richard Henry Lee, who had made a motion in Congress on June 7, 1776, that the American colonies declare independence. "True freedom," Lee asserted, "embraces the Mahomitan and the Gentoo (Hindu) as well as the Christian religion." This is from the link below if you wish to read more...

Founding fathers on religion

Please stay on topic. Further off-topic comments, insulting replies, or comments that address other members instead of the subject will be removed. Let's all be civil and polite please.

reply to post by Jobeycool

And I've got several bibles, a concordance, and a hebrew/greek lexicon. Does that make me a christian? No.

There are many more pagan symbols in this country than there are christian.

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by littletheif203
This country was founded on the idea of religious freedom. The founders were not Christians, well not what christians of today would consider christian. Jefferson even made his own bible that suited him, and the use of the word/term god means nothing. It does mean a christian god, a god can anything or anyone that a person puts faith in, so the fact that the word god is used, does not mean that it is referring to the christian god.

True. Deists do not believe in a god to worship or follow. They basically believe in a Universe Architect. In other words something or someone created all that exists - - - then walked away leaving man to build on it.

So yes - when god is used - it doesn't mean a god of worship. It means something like a Right of Man or given to man.

edit on 21-6-2011 by Annee because: (no reason given)

Interesting, Deist is derived from Deity which does indeed mean a God figure, but you are saying a Deist doesn't believe in God?

Deism - belief in a God without accepting revalation.

Therefore the 'founding fathers' believed in God if they classed themselves as Deists, but possibly not the Christian interpretation. If this isn't the case then they weren't Deists.

Click here for more information.

reply to post by something wicked


From what I've read, Diests do believe in a god, or an entity that created the universe, but they believe that this being doesn't interfere with our day to day lives. They simply created our world, and us and are leaving us to our own devices.

Originally posted by something wicked
Interesting, Deist is derived from Deity which does indeed mean a God figure, but you are saying a Deist doesn't believe in God?

Deism - belief in a God without accepting revalation.

Therefore the 'founding fathers' believed in God if they classed themselves as Deists, but possibly not the Christian interpretation. If this isn't the case then they weren't Deists.

Deists believe in a Creator or Architect of the Universe (also called God). I personally do not use God because of organized religion and the multitude of interpretations.

Creator or Architect of the Universe - - - is a more precise descriptive of how a Deist observes the world/universe/creation.

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by something wicked
Interesting, Deist is derived from Deity which does indeed mean a God figure, but you are saying a Deist doesn't believe in God?

Deism - belief in a God without accepting revalation.

Therefore the 'founding fathers' believed in God if they classed themselves as Deists, but possibly not the Christian interpretation. If this isn't the case then they weren't Deists.

Deists believe in a Creator or Architect of the Universe (also called God). I personally do not use God because of organized religion and the multitude of interpretations.

Creator or Architect of the Universe - - - is a more precise descriptive of how a Deist observes the world/universe/creation.

Completely agree with what you say Annee, but if I eat a green round fruit with pips in the middle it's still an apple whether I choose to refer to it as one or not.

reply to post by Annee


You know that what you post is BS. Thomas Paine and Thomas Jefferson were both atheists (bias much?) and obviously spoke this way because of their atheism.

Quotes about god from almost every founding father:


"Here is my Creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshipped. That the most acceptable service we render to Him is in doing good to His other Children. That the soul of Man is immortal, and will be treated with Justice in another Life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound Religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever Sect I meet with them. As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, is the best the World ever saw, or is likely to see."

-- Ben Franklin (though he did not follow a religion he DID believe in God)

"It is impossible for the man of pious reflection not to perceive in it [the Constitution] a finger of that Almighty hand which has been so frequently and signally extended to our relief in the critical stages of the revolution."

- James Madison

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ! For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here."

- Patrick Henry

"We, therefore, the Congress of the United States of America, do solemnly declare and proclaim that... We appeal to the God who searcheth the hearts of men for the rectitude of our intentions; and in His holy presence declare that, as we are not moved by any light or hasty suggestions of anger or revenge, so through every possible change of fortune we will adhere to this our determination."

- Manifesto of the Continental Congress, October 30, 1778 (Sam Adams)

For my own part, I sincerely esteem it a system which without the finger of God, never could have been suggested and agreed upon by such a diversity of interests.

- Alexander Hamilton (After 1787 Constitutional Convention)

Originally posted by Jobeycool
I get fired up and fed up with people who think our nation is not a christian nation must have thier heads in the clouds.So I resort to calling them idiots.

It's probably just because you're challenged by the fact that they are more rational and ethical human beings than you, despite whatever faiths or religious values that they claim to stand behind.

Please source all of this crap:

Originally posted by Jobeycool
Still is a christian dominate nation ,,Listen to your arguemnt.Some where Deist who believed in God.They still where not atheist you lump heads.

Originally posted by Jobeycool
Again I must say this again.Every single country or nation on earth is nothing more than a mirror image of what they start believeing and it will spread into the government body.Does not matter what they say or tell you from history.Whih proves this country was indeed a christian nation.Because the fore fathers believed in christinaity.If we stray away from what our fore fathers believed then we become a mirror image of what we believe again.Why would we want to do that when are Fore Fathers got everything right.People totaly lose common sense when they argue this subject.If you put atheist as presidents and in congress then chances are your an atheist country.Muslims apply,HIndus,communist,socialist,fasist.whatever you have in power.

Originally posted by Jobeycool
Even the atheist are dumb as it can be is this country with history.NO wonder arwe education stinks.When you lie about history this is what you end up with.Moral decline,family delcine,more wars,more violence,more corruption,more economic problems.All the Fore Fathers,every last one of them believed in God and they definetly used the bible to influence laws in this country.

Originally posted by Jobeycool
If someone claims the United States of America was not born out of christian people then They have to be idiots with this subject.Makes no sense at all.Not even worth argueing over anymore.

Originally posted by vlady95
reply to post by Annee

 

You know that what you post is BS. Thomas Paine and Thomas Jefferson were both atheists (bias much?) and obviously spoke this way because of their atheism.

Really? As far as I know the only Atheist was Benjamin Franklin.

Most were Deists. Because of the philosophical thinking of Deists - - they would definitely have discussed religion - - agreeing with some things and not others.

Which is why some quotes are negative toward Christianity and some are positive. Just depended on what particulars they were discussing/writing about.

All of this about 'deists', 'ecclesiastical establishments', 'born again's, is just splitting hairs. Its got nothing to do with the reality of chritianity. You're only looking at it from the White point of view, not the whole world view.
The main thrust of christianity through the ages was to destroy, obliterate, terminate, steal from, take their land, take their oil and minerals, rape, kill, convert, subjugate, and everything else to all the brown, black, yellow, etc. people of the world. Native indians , who are not red, were called 'red', only because the devil is red.
Christians subjugated every non-White people on earth, using christianity as an excuse. It didn't matter if they were deists, ecclesiastics, secularists, atheists, hypocrites, it didn't matter. Christianity was given as the excuse for doing it. All non-whites were just 'amusement clowns' for WASPS, up until 1910.
Chinese were the last in on the '55 days in Peking', in 1900, and first out, by declaring a constitutional government in 1910.
Then, White christians had no one left to turn on but themselves, so we got WWI & WWII.
That's the real meaning of christianity. At least the way it has been used through history.
It came from believing that nonsense about the 'holy trinity'. So, we must have had a lot of leaders who, believing that jesus is jehovah, believed in jehovah's edict that you should destroy your 'enemy',(people that don't look like you) down to the last dog and grasshopper.
Anyone that reads Deuteronomy should realise that jehovah was not going to let any johnny-come-lately, (jesus) be equal to him.
Jehovah is a jealous god, and jesus, speaking through Paul, says that 'god is love', and 'love is not jealous'
jehovah and jesus are not related.
The concept of the holy trinity was put together by Augustine, in the fifth century. There is only one verse in the Bible that puts the three together as one, the very last verse in II John, I believe. This verse looks like an 'add-on'
something added long after the original texts.
And how many millions had to die because of that add-on? How many thousands had to be raped?
In the gospel according to Thomas, Jesus calls elohim his father.
But White people used this false belief of the holy trinity to destroy everyone they could get their hands on.
This 'splitting hairs' thing, about what the founding fathers religious beliefs were, or, what they meant by certain statements, has nothing to do with the true thrust of 'supposed' christianity through the ages.

Originally posted by something wicked

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by something wicked
Interesting, Deist is derived from Deity which does indeed mean a God figure, but you are saying a Deist doesn't believe in God?

Deism - belief in a God without accepting revalation.

Therefore the 'founding fathers' believed in God if they classed themselves as Deists, but possibly not the Christian interpretation. If this isn't the case then they weren't Deists.

Deists believe in a Creator or Architect of the Universe (also called God). I personally do not use God because of organized religion and the multitude of interpretations.

Creator or Architect of the Universe - - - is a more precise descriptive of how a Deist observes the world/universe/creation.

Completely agree with what you say Annee, but if I eat a green round fruit with pips in the middle it's still an apple whether I choose to refer to it as one or not.

Well - there's Pagan Gods - Hindu Gods - Mythological Gods - etc etc.

And then there is the Ancient Astronauts - - off planet being Gods.

I do not choose to use the term God. But - feel free.

reply to post by Lemon.Fresh


I have not read anything OP that I have not heard before, more crap bible verses that pose zero real value to anything.

Its called separation of church and state for a reason, keep them separate you religious zombie.

Sometimes I really do wish Hitler hated Christians instead of the Jews.. Would have done this world quite the favor

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by something wicked

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by something wicked
Interesting, Deist is derived from Deity which does indeed mean a God figure, but you are saying a Deist doesn't believe in God?

Deism - belief in a God without accepting revalation.

Therefore the 'founding fathers' believed in God if they classed themselves as Deists, but possibly not the Christian interpretation. If this isn't the case then they weren't Deists.

Deists believe in a Creator or Architect of the Universe (also called God). I personally do not use God because of organized religion and the multitude of interpretations.

Creator or Architect of the Universe - - - is a more precise descriptive of how a Deist observes the world/universe/creation.

Completely agree with what you say Annee, but if I eat a green round fruit with pips in the middle it's still an apple whether I choose to refer to it as one or not.

Well - there's Pagan Gods - Hindu Gods - Mythological Gods - etc etc.

And then there is the Ancient Astronauts - - off planet being Gods.

I do not choose to use the term God. But - feel free.

Hi there, again, completely agree, well, apart from the ancient astronaut thing which I have no belief in. All I meant was, we can refer to the same thing with different names, but it's still the same thing.

Originally posted by FoJAk

Are you serious?! First you say you beg to differ that our country was not found on christianity, and then you say this?! If you are going to post a thread at least stick to your guns, or just admit you were wrong, or simply think before you title your thread. In my eyes everything you say is now is poop. Just poop in scooper.

edit on 6/22/2011 by FoJAk because: for punctuation:>:>">:/l;..l;

Or you could try some reading comprehension. The thread title is founded IN Christianity. Not ON Christianity. There is a difference.

Originally posted by Evil_Santa
The image below sums up my thoughts on the OPs arguments.

edit on 22-6-2011 by Evil_Santa because: (no reason given)

Do you wish to try and prove it wrong, then please come out with facts. There is no circular reasoning fallacy. It is backed by Biblical proof, and others have backed it by the words of the fathers.

Originally posted by beansanmash


You argue that America was founded in Christianity, however, the only thing that you show is that it was founded with the concept of God.

You are forgetting the fact that many of the most prominent founding fathers were masons, who have a quite different and more encompassing concept of God than Christianity.

Considering the Bible is the book of Christianity (only the Tanakh is Judaism), I have proven that the Bible was used in the founding of the US.

I have already posted the numbers on which were masons. You say "many," wish is false. It was not many. It was some.

reply to post by trailertrash


Please debate the facts presented, and not ad hominems.

Originally posted by DSeal

Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh
Reply to post by Annee

 

I have given you proof. You call me a liar. So where is your evidence that I am lying?

I can go to a website full of quotes to defend my position as well.

www.faithofourfathers.net...

The problem is that I am not saying that the United States was founded as a Christian nation, or even that the founding fathers were above reproach. I am saying that it was founded on Biblical prreproach, as I have shown.

 

Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

 

Treaty of Tripoli by John Adams, one of the founding fathers.

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion"

I think you forgot the rest of the quote. Let me help you.

--As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries. --

I will fix your issue with the following person's post included, so both of you can deny ignorance.

reply to post by favouriteslave


The treaty is stating that Christianity is not the state religion of the United States, and therefore has no problems with dealing with Muslims/

At the time, The Muslim Barbary Powers (Tunis, Morocco, Algiers, and Tripoli) were warring against what they claimed to be the "Christian" nations (England, France, Spain, Denmark, and the United States (notice . . . state religion of the first 4?).


Notice the following. The treaty says "not founded ON." Says nothing of being founded IN. Furthermore it says "as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen." Because it was not founded ON Christianity, it does not have the natural emnity that it would have if Christianity was the state religion.

Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh It is backed by Biblical proof, and others have backed it by the words of the fathers.

Please stop using your wizard's manual as proof for anything.

Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh I have already posted the numbers on which were masons. You say "many," wish is false. It was not many. It was some.

I think there are some Masons here who would disagree.

As I posted earlier, the superstitious were all over the new nation. However, it looks to me, the Christian portion of that group didn't want anything to do with government.

Originally posted by gentledissident
Please, correct me if I'm wrong. The Pilgrims came here because they didn't want government interfering with their religion, and the Protestants came here because they didn't want religion interfering with the government. If that was the case, it would seem neither group would have wanted a god concept to be part of the government.

reply to post by MapMistress


And what of the other tens of founding fathers?

That is great that you can cherry pick quotes from one of them. Problem is, I can cherry pick quotes from him as well that says the opposite.

I can also pick at least double the amount of quotes from other founding fathers that say the opposite of what you want them to say.

Also, please look up how many were deists. After you do that, compare their deism with deism today vs Christain Deism.

Deny ignorance . . .

Originally posted by Durchlaucht
reply to post by Lemon.Fresh

 

What a load of BULL #!! There is more than enough evidence that most of the "founding fathers" were ATHEIEST and and best SECULARIST!!

You are just one of the loosing morons that can't separate your bible from your consitution. Get over yourslef and get a life!!!!

If such proof exists, please present it.

Otherwise sit down and keep quiet.

We don't need more ad hominems in this thread.