Golan: Israel troops fire on pro-Palestinian protesters

Since i am 100% (and a bit more) on Israel side, i am not gonna try to explain budski (who is probably exactly 100% and a bit more against Israel) why i regret that only 20 people are reportedly dead.

Yep, every life counts, and i might sound cinical with the above statement, but seriously...lets get over with this crap about who is right and who is wrong, who obey the law and who doesn't, who accepts borders and who doesn't.

This Israeli-Arab conflict will end when one side will phisicaly disapear.Either Israel, either the arab nations.Yes, even if only ONE arab nation will exist one one side and Israel on the other , the conflict won't end.

So, waht do i like to happend is next : Since the ''protesters'' are camping overnight, i hope HUNDREDS of THOUSAND of protesters gather and storm the border.I also hope Israeli troops to kill 3-4 thousand of them, and afterward, ALL arab nations armies go to war against Israel.

What is next, i don't care, because either Israel either Arabs will lose so badly, that the winning side will IMPOSE a peace.And i don't care who wins, even if i am on Israeli side 100% and a bit more.

reply to post by BiGGz


Thats nice, but the resoltuon was rejected by Arab governments, so the part you highlighted is not enforceable.

funny how that works.

Until the reoslution is agreed to by all parties involved, its a suggestion and nothing more.

Arabs placed a caveat on the resolution, which israel rejected, and the caveat israel placed was they would return the land in echange for recognition an peace treaites, which the arabs rejected.

What we have is essentially a more subdued version fo the KOrean DMZ.

Since on resoultion was agreed upon, Israel is occuping territory belonging to Egypt, Jordan and Syria (they recently concluded an agreement with lebanon, returning an entire bvillage back to them, which pissed of Syris, who has claims to the territory also).

So Israel can occup based on UN charter until such time peace is reached by all parties involved. Next time arab countries decide to go after Israel, they will take into account the fact they might loose. You dont pick a fight, and then go running to mom and dad that you lost the fight and want your land back.

Doesnt work that way.

Originally posted by FEDec
My point is that for a country with such a high security budget an inordinate amount of crime occurs. Which would suggest cooperation between criminals and Israeli government and security forces

How do you define "inordinate amount"? Compared to what? US? China? Got any numbers to show what you mean?

Every country has criminals. Some of the richest countries with the largest security budgets have some of the largest criminal factions. There are a lot of factors that determine the level of criminal activity in a country. But to suggest that having a high security budget and a high crime rate means that the government is in on it is absurd without any other proof.

Russia, US and China are similar to Israel in that respect. Are their governments hand in hand with the criminals?

reply to post by Recollector


Israel always had and will have diehard enemies. Even outside of the Arab world - some people have made it their personal righteous crusade to demonize Israel and everything it does. If this makes them feel better - splendid.

And those people will live, preach their agenda, and die. And none of them will matter in the long term - not to Israel, not to other countries. Israel will continue to exist, and to concern itself primarily and above all with its own existance. And so will all the other countries. There are no righteous crusades in international politics - only business.

I do not agree with many things Israel does, but I always agree with one - Israel does what is best for Israel and Israelis, without bowing down to the righteous screams and protests against them. The dogs bark, the caravan marches on....

Originally posted by maloy

Originally posted by JR MacBeth
Let's let the General's Son teach you some history friend...

I don't let people teach me history. I especially don't let people with questionable credibility and motives teach me history. I read and learn it myself. I read the information provided by both sides, as well as neutral sides.

Alright friend? Or do you want me to summon somebody to teach you history?

A whole lot of chutzpuh I'm picking up here.

SO, a general, who fought in the 1967 war, his son can't teach you anything?

Oy vey.

JR

PS: You can summon someone to teach us history? Who? Moshe Dayan??

Originally posted by JR MacBeth
SO, a general, who fought in the 1967 war, his son can't teach you anything?

Sure he can. He and thousands of others who claim as much credibility and believe that they know the "true" story. I can listen to them and consider what they say, but it doesn't mean I need to believe them or agree with them.

Originally posted by JR MacBeth
PS: You can summon someone to teach us history? Who? Moshe Dayan??

I could, but I am afraid there are too many knowledgeable disciples to choose from. Dayan? He knew a thing or two about a thing or two. And he didn't know even more than he knew, especially about events that would take place after him.

Originally posted by maloy
I don't let people teach me history. I especially don't let people with questionable credibility and motives teach me history. I read and learn it myself. I read the information provided by both sides, as well as neutral sides.

Then you're just an ignorant fool.

There's an old saying:

If he knows, listen to him.
If he does not know, and wants to learn, teach him.
If he does not know, and does not want to learn, avoid him.

When you say "you don't let people teach you history", who do you let teach you history? Online encylcopedias written by 'people'? Books and textbooks written by 'people'? People have been telling you what to believe since you were born kid

reply to post by BiGGz


Couldnt the exact same argument be applied to the flip (arab/palestine) side of this argument then? Arent they doing what they are doing because they ahve been told what to beleive as well?

In Israel you are free to look at other news sources. Can you say the same on the arab side?

There is a saying...

There are 3 sides to every story, This side, that side and in the middle is the truth.

Originally posted by BiGGz
Then you're just an ignorant fool.

Thank you for that observation. It is very altruistic of you to point out my flaws, and surely you cannot be mistaken given the sound logic and unbiased reasoning you have demonstrated previously. You are a true educator, and a selfless one at that.

Originally posted by BiGGz
There's an old saying:

If he knows, listen to him.
If he does not know, and wants to learn, teach him.
If he does not know, and does not want to learn, avoid him.

Old sayings! How splendid. Forgive me for my arrogant impatience, but please would you point out which of the above three lines applies to you? If one of those lines applies to yours truly, then one of them must applies to you as well?


I love philosophical discussions dealing with superiority of thought. They bring out the fools in all but the smartest of us - in those they bring out narcissistic deviants.

reply to post by Xcathdra


I base my conclusions on rationality. I see the conflict over the land of Palestine not as a religious one, but a moral one. I don't believe Jews have a right to Palestine, nor do i believe in the story told by the bible. I believe everyone in life, Jew and Gentile, Black and White, Shia and Sunni have EQUAL right. I actually believe the Palestinians have more of a right to the land because they were the inhabitants of the land when it was partitioned.

I'm a human rights activist, not a war mongering religious radical.


--

Originally posted by BiGGz
I'll say this 1 last time, then I'm leaving.

Oh jeez, I just realized this isn't my thread

Originally posted by BiGGz
Then you're just an ignorant fool.

Is it really necessary to resort to name-calling just because someone disagrees with you?

Maloy is right. Libraries and the internet provide sources to do independent research without having to accept an opinion of history given by someone who thinks they know it.

The Six Day War was provoked by Egypt blockading shipping to Israel. By doing so, Egypt broke international law by blockading an interantional waterway. It was an act of war initiated by Egypt.

The good thing about these anti-Israel threads is that it brings out the pro-terrorists here at ATS.

Nice thread OP. I'll give you a S and F.

One suggestion though. Don't put "Israel" in the title, else the Mossad shills will show up in force.

Notice how many stars they get (from each other), for posting very little, just repeating the same nauseating half-truths?

Count the stars right now. That will be some indication of how many there are on this thread (at the moment).

Yes, the disinfo paid spin-masters are real here on ATS, as in other places. Why not have some fun watching their antics?

JR

Originally posted by BiGGz
I base my conclusions on rationality. I see the conflict over the land of Palestine not as a religious one, but a moral one.

Almost everyone involved in a conflict, or passionately taking a side in one sees it as a moral one. It doesn't have to be religious - it can be social, economic, political, tactical. You can insert morale into it as an observer or someone involved in it, but those who create and fuel conflicts (the leadership) do not see them in those terms, at least not for long. Do you think the leadership of Hamas, Hezbollah, or Syria sees it as a moral conflict?

Originally posted by BiGGz
I don't believe Jews have a right to Palestine, nor do i believe in the story told by the bible. I believe everyone in life, Jew and Gentile, Black and White, Shia and Sunni have EQUAL right. I actually believe the Palestinians have more of a right to the land because they were the inhabitants of the land when it was partitioned.

How can Palestinians have more of a right? Is "right" measurable? Are there any standards to measure it? Right in this sense is subjective. The circumstances of what happened in the region after the British left are mostly objective. They weren't fair or just to all, but few things are. People can adjust to circumstances and make the best of them with an understanding that while they feel they were "wronged", nothing can make it "right", but something can make it work anyway. The Arab side did not try to make things work - they felt they they could make things "right". Well, they were wrong, and they made an even bigger mess of things in 1948.

If one wants achievable results, the best way to go about achieving them is being pragmatic. A righteous crusade will only leave an idealist disappointed in that nothing in the world is or will be ideal.

Originally posted by BiGGz
I'm a human rights activist, not a war mongering religious radical.

I am war mongering radical who hates human rights, albeit an atheist one. Nice to meet you. I have a feeling that a lot of people who have an opposite view of yours are war mongering radicals, at least in your eyes.

Originally posted by JR MacBeth
Don't put "Israel" in the title, else the Mossad shills will show up in force.

I have been called KGB, Mossad, FSB, CIA, Chicom, Terrorist, Stalinist, NeoCon and an ignorant fool more than once. Many in these forums share my fate. If I were all of those, that would mean I am extremely talented and intelligent. Unfortunately I am not any of them, except for the ignorant fool perhaps.

Isn't it fun to imagine that those who have a different opinion from you are single minded, united mass, whose sole role in life is to oppose your righteous beliefs and ideals? Don't worry, it's fun for us too, and we get paid for it, by Mossad no less.

Originally posted by JR MacBeth
Notice how many stars they get (from each other), for posting very little, just repeating the same nauseating half-truths?

The stars? Hah. They are just half the story - you should see the gold that we get from the Jews!

Originally posted by JR MacBeth
Count the stars right now. That will be some indication of how many there are on this thread (at the moment)

Well it's not as many as we would like, so we are obviously underfunded. Youtube comments - that is where out internet forces are the most dedicated - they even get health and dental coverage. Imagine that.

Originally posted by JR MacBeth
Yes, the disinfo paid spin-masters are real here on ATS, as in other places. Why not have some fun watching their antics?)

We get paid by the vowel, and you do this for free. And some dare call us fools.

reply to post by BiGGz


An intresting way to view the area for sure. As a Human rights activist then, do you agree with the way Hamas or Hezzbullah have behaved?

If your goal is for all to live in peace, then shouldnt your argument be against all waring factions, regardless of which religion they suibscribe to? And if that is the case, why single out just Israeli action?

It's really a clear and cut case and yet, some of you fall into it.

Assad has sent/allowed and reportedly paid people to protest in order to take the heat off what he doing. The fact that people are more vehement that Israel defended its borders than Assad murdering his own people in droves and using his people as tools to create less view on what he is doing and more on what Israel doing. Congratulations Assad, you've managed to do it to some people.

reply to post by maloy

Isn't it fun to imagine that those who have a different opinion from you are single minded, united mass, whose sole role in life is to oppose your righteous beliefs and ideals? Don't worry, it's fun for us too, and we get paid for it, by Mossad no less.

Yes comrade, we get that. Your people are incredibly single-minded, and the goy fight for their lives...for "free".

Keep laughing.

Now, why won't you address Israeli General Peled's son's assertions? Not even one? Really?

For shame. Surely, you're not getting a raise next time. Back to the kibbutz with you.

JR

So they were running again-with Zionist propaganda! poor poor you who are so no longer can lie you hoarse. NO ONE BELIEVES YOU ANY MORE! Zionists have nothing to do with Israel and should disappear from there to their homeland.

Originally posted by budski


The most odious regime of the western allies, Israel continues to flout international law, and backed by the US is never going to be sanctioned by the UN.

Many believe the propaganda war perpetrated by those in power, but the truth is far simpler.

Israel is a rogue state.

But it is a rogue state that has the backing of powerfull nations.

I am continually sickened by what I see from Israel - I know they are in a virtual state of war, but their actions only produce more extremists.

Or maybe that's the point.

www.bbc.co.uk
(visit the link for the full news article)

So... You own a house with a nice big yard that someone gave you... 20 years later, after you put up your fence and painted your house... Your neighbors want to take it from you. So, one day they decide to storm the fence. You find that your electric fense isnt keeping up, so you pull out your rifle and start defending your home... How is this any diffrent???


Everyone has a right to exist... Even little bitty Israel. It's not like the rest of the arabian/muslim/palestine culture needs more land than they already have... Cmon, they encompas the whole damned middle east, massive parts of europe and asia, as well as africa.... Cant you people just let Isreal be it own little country? For petes sakes... Lets just all be nazis and exterminate the jews.. then who's next?? If I'd have a say, it would be the same people with that kind of outlook on Israels right to exist. Dont you understand that those countries dont want Israel to exist AT ALL? Not just beyond the 67 borders... they want it ALL... We've taken out dictators with this kind of idealism, yet we still allow it to happen to isreal just because it's israel. Why do we help countries like Libya free itself from it's dictators, but when it comes to Israel, we make her fight her own battles.... what a shame.

Originally posted by theRhenn


So... You own a house with a nice big yard that someone gave you... 20 years later, after you put up your fence and painted your house... Your neighbors want to take it from you. So, one day they decide to storm the fence. You find that your electric fense isnt keeping up, so you pull out your rifle and start defending your home... How is this any diffrent???

A more accurate comparison:

You have a house with a big yard, but you want your yard to be bigger so you start occupying some of your neighbor's yards. They get upset about it and start launching fireworks into your yard in retaliation, so you cordon them off into cramped ghettos and cut off their food and water supplies. Then when they become desperate and attack you, you fly jets into their ghettos and drop white phosphorous on their children.

I would support Israel 100% if they would have just left it at the 1967 borders, didn't commit blatant human rights abuses in Gaza, and simply tried to exist and get along with their neighbors. Instead they pull crap like shooting innocent protestors, inflaming international conflict and generally destabilizing the region. There's no excuse for any of that.