The C14 radio carbon dating confirm: The Bosnian "Moon" Pyramid was build 10,000 years ago!

reply to post by Kandinsky


Sounds like you have degenerated into mocking, rather than attempting to state anything that resembles logic or reason.

By the way, your own source proves you wrong.

Important UPDATE: Osmanagich tell all.

A video interview of 30 min. with Dr. Semir Osmanagich in more than 20 different subtitles languages.
www.disclose.tv...

Bosnia has no pyramids, Osmanagich is a lying, untrustworthy wide boy and I can't believe how easy it is for people like him to fool so many of you with a couple of pics of some rocks and a tall tale..


ROFL!!

In that video he says that they found no artifacts at all in the " Tunnels ", then asks why would a people systematically go through all the tunnels and remove all the artifacts?? LOLOLOL!

Seriously.........there were never any artifacts in the first place

No pyramids, no artifacts, nothing of archaeological significance whatsoever.

reply to post by Finguz


If you are really interested, (but I doubt!) do your homeworks!

Use the "search button". It is your friend!

Why is there so much resistance to the idea of something outside the mainstream accepted history being true?...JW

Originally posted by Homedawg
Why is there so much resistance to the idea of something outside the mainstream accepted history being true?...JW

The requirement of proof is not what you would call resistance. Belief does not make it fact.

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck

Originally posted by Homedawg
Why is there so much resistance to the idea of something outside the mainstream accepted history being true?...JW

The requirement of proof is not what you would call resistance. Belief does not make it fact.

You don't need to believe anything to have an open mind.

The greatest inventions was made by people that didn't believe the current knowledge base to to be the absolute limit. If the hills in Bosnia really is pyramids, you would never know if someone didn't believe it was so and took the struggle to relly excavate it. If it wasn't for people like Osmanagic, it would still remain to be natural made hills forever. It's like sitting with a Christmas present in your hands, refusing to open it and saying that there is nothing in there because you can't see through the Christmas wrapping. I actually give a #%& about how many respected, peer revieved scientific reports and professors say about it NOT being a pyramid when so little has been excavated yet.

Until more is revealed I keep an open mind and don't believe anything.

Sometimes the "Debunkers" seems more fanatic than those that are willing to keep an open mind until more is revealed.

Deny ignorance is not the same as Deny anything...

reply to post by Arken


Very interesting, human history has been butcherd to hell. its nice to have some science back up what most of us have known in our hearts for awhile.

reply to post by poet1b


People who are suggesting these are pyramids are talking 100% total smack. Why? Because there is no proof....no artifacts, no evidence and of course, no pyramids

Originally posted by poet1b

And as I pointed out earlier, not one of these reports states someone went there and looked at the site, and what observations they made.

You clearly haven't read the reports and are now just making yourself look even more foolish.

How about the Bosnian geologists who surveyed the area and declared it completely natural?

Or how about the geologist Dr Robert Schoch (clearly not a scientist not afraid of controversy) who spent 10 days up there studying the hills. His conclusion:

What he's found isn't even unusual or spectacular from the geological point of view," says geologist Robert Schoch of Boston University, who spent ten days at Visoko that summer. "It's completely straightforward and mundane."

Read more: www.smithsonianmag.com...

or

The afternoon I arrived in Bosnia, Osmanagic insisted on taking me straightaway to the so-called “Pyramid of the Sun.” I observed the excavated areas of huge stone blocks; blocks that I was told were most definitely not natural. Clearly, Osmanagic insisted, they were man-made concrete blocks that cannot be explained geologically, put into place with a sophisticated ancient technology that has now been lost. Amazingly, he explained, the “concrete” blocks proved to be harder and more durable than any modern concretes or cements. But he and I were apparently seeing different things, perhaps viewing an entirely different world. Where he saw concrete blocks and human intervention, I saw only perfectly natural sandstones and conglomerates that had broken into larger or smaller blocks due both to tectonic stresses and gravity slumping. For a week and a half this seemed to be the dominant theme: Osmanagic and others who worked with and for him insisting that this or that feature can never occur in nature, and thus must be artificial and human-made, versus me finding a perfectly reasonable geological explanation for each of the same features.

I had a chance to see the Visoko region from the air, and this only further convinced me that the features are natural hills and not artificial pyramids.

More

Maybe you should try actually reading the reports in the future.

Originally posted by Skallagrimsson
You don't need to believe anything to have an open mind.

True, but just because you keep an open mind, doesn't mean you should believe everything.

Sometimes the "Debunkers" seems more fanatic than those that are willing to keep an open mind until more is revealed.

Ah...but that is generally in response to those who ignore whatever they do not wish to see...yet profess that 'open mind', just the same. As they say, the trick is not to have a mind so open that one's brains fall out.

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck

Originally posted by Skallagrimsson
Sometimes the "Debunkers" seems more fanatic than those that are willing to keep an open mind until more is revealed.

Ah...but that is generally in response to those who ignore whatever they do not wish to see...yet profess that 'open mind', just the same. As they say, the trick is not to have a mind so open that one's brains fall out.

Regarding this case I believe it is too early to conclude that it's purely natural and not even partially man made. I do want to see more excavated. To claim that there is no point in excavation because there can't be anything there is completely ridiculous. You don't need to believe anything or everything to want the excavations to continue. If it isn't man made it is certainly an interesting geological phenomena to have been formed in that shape. Why all the resistance???

Regarding my statement that some of the debunkers seems to be more fanatical than the other ones is due to a couple things. First of all; Lack of interest in the topic. There are many that enters a tread or forum that are only bashing those that subscribe to the ideas of the topic at hand. Many of those seems to be very fanatic about this. To me this is a sign of someone that is only looking for a quarrel. If I'm not interested in a subject I don't enter that tread, or I leave if I don't have anything valuable to put on the table. But this doesn't apply to some as they go on and on and on, and never quits bashing the op or others to the thoughts presented. They normally doesn't bring any info on the table, just some "empty" opinions. It's quite annoying to read through pages and pages of the same opinion (without any valuable facts) between every time there is something valuable presented in a tread. There is someone that sees it as their life's mission to correct people at any cost. If I see something is not correct I might bring up some facts, but if people doesn't want to read it I normally leave it at that, or find some more facts. It's not a discussion I have to win or loose.

Don't misunderstand me JohnnyCanuck, I don't mean you as you do provide facts to your opinions, but there is many others that don't and this is what I dislike with ATS. On the bright side there is normally lots of interesting stuff and thoughts to discover in some of these treads, but due to all the "empty" noise it takes an eternity to read through all the "junk" between everytime I find something valuable. I do value both believers and sceptics alike, but only when they bring something new and interesting to the table. "Empty" opinions and bashing is waste of time and space...

Yes, many sceptics are fanatical on their scepticism. Many times I read through sceptics magazines or sites on the internet, because they might have a interesting view on the case at hand, but I find many of those to be totally sceptical to everything that isn't mainstream all the way to the point where they sometimes refuses to believe what has allready been scientifically proven.

Some scepticism is healthy but it's intellectual blindness to refuse investigating other possibilities than what's in the current knowledge base. If it wasn't for those that kept an open mind to try doing things a bit differently, we would still be using stone axes....

I really hope they excavate more of the "Bosnian pyramids", so we all can see and learn what is true, whether it is or isn't man made...

Originally posted by Skallagrimsson
Why all the resistance???

Hi, I can see at least three reasons for this 'resistance':
- the worry about genuine archaeological sites that could be endangered by Osmanagic's 'excavations'. Bosnia has been inhabited for thousands of years, there are archaeological remains almost everywhere. Till now, the Osmanagic team hasn't shown very much respect for these remains: their priority was to show the 'pyramids', and to dig in the fastest possible way to the rock substrate, without much interest for the potential archaeological layers that are above this substrate. There has been mentions of various disappearings of artifacts and even skeletons.
- the fact that Bosnia is not a rich country, and that a non negligible part of its feable public funds for archaeological research have been used for Osmanagic's project. At the same time, some of its indisputable archaeological heritage, greatly damaged by the war and years of other priorities, is still waiting for some money and some public interest. For example, the archaeological collections of the National Museum in Sarajevo are still stocked in a cave and cannot be exposed to the public, for lack of money for the repair of the roof and for the heating of the rooms; thousands of 'stecci' (unique Bosnian medieval tombstones) are in danger of disappearing for lack of protection and restauration...
- last but not least, one could wish to 'resist' because Mr. Osmanagic's approach is pseudoscience under a light veneer of science. They do not use the cautious approach of the open-minded that you describe in your post. Mr. Osmanagic had already decided -and described- in 2005, before any excavation took place, what he would find, and since then he and his team are carefully selecting their 'evidence', ignoring every other evidence, every other explanation. I sincerely think that in this affair the open-minded are not the ones you think!

Cordially, Irna

reply to post by FatherLukeDuke


Ah, in five pages of the long winded, IMO poorly written Smithsonian article, that is one little bloop about someone actually going to the site.

When you go to see the report put out by this geologist, and you bother to read the report, it becomes quite clear that there is a complete absence of scientific data, no measurements, no tests, no specific comparisons to sites that are supposedly similar. In addition to that, the geologists reports unconfirmed rumors as facts, without any evidence to back up said rumors. That is completely irresponsible, which explains why the University the Geologist works for did not publish his findings.

Reading the geologists report, it seems that he was more interested in being a tourist than making a legitimate scientific analysis, which would have required some work on his part.

If you have any reports that actually involve some actual testing, and scientific research please publish them, and stop embarrassing yourself.

In the meantime, take a look at Osmanagić's response. He comes off as far more credible.

www.piramidasunca.ba...

After heading back to the US, Collet and Schoch sent me several e-mails asking me to send them additional money (for expenses and rent while they were absent from their apartments, for medicine, for honorarium, etc.). This wasn’t in any way part of our initial agreement and I did not agree to pay them any additional funds.

From that moment attacks of the project, and I personally, began to show up on their websites. These attacks continued for years and Schoch used every opportunity to emphasize how “Osmanagich started the project because of his future engagement in politics” (?) and “desire to make money” (?) and that this project was “a fiasco” and also that there are only “geological phenomena” in Visoko.

As it turns out this in not the first time Schoch has taken this kind of stance. Graham Hancock, one of the world’s leading nonconventional researchers of ancient civilizations, had a similar experience. Hancock researched for years some underwater ruins at the bottom of the Pacific between Japan, Taiwan and China and published a book “Underworld” on the subject.

Schoch joined Graham on a dive to the Yonaguni underwater site, even though he had no experience in underwater diving. Schoch was assisted by two Japanese divers and during the dive appeared to be more concerned about grasping for air than taking in the site at the bottom of the Pacific floor. He later, very confidently, said that there are no artificial monuments at the bottom of the Pacific and that it was only a natural formation. He was able to make this determination even though, according to those on the dive with him, his only focus seemed to be his personal safety.

I began to realize what this Boston professor was doing--going from one archeological location to another with the intent of taking opposite views of the serious researchers at the sites. He has built a career on this approach. He does not produce any scientific evidence, sample analysis, or radiocarbon dating—just his opinions.

...

Since Robert Schoch’s visit to Visoko, the Bosnian pyramids have become one of the most active archaeological projects in the world with more than 340.000 working hours spent on archaeological excavations, sample analysis, and radiocarbon dating. In the summer of 2010, 500 volunteers came to Visoko from 30 countries along with 45 archaeologists from Malaysia, the USA, Italy, Spain, Hungary, Croatia and the United Kingdom.

This year volunteers applied from 42 countries from six continents. Notable American archaeologist Dr. Ezra Zubrow was visiting the Bosnian Valley of the Pyramids in the summer of 2010 and concluded further investigation should explore the questions of “who built the Bosnian pyramids, when they were constructed, and what the connection between tunnels and pyramids truly is”.

A leading Egyptologist and scientist who catalogued all 138 pyramids in Egypt, Dr. Nabil Swelim confirmed that the “pyramids in Bosnia are an amazing and genius construction attempt for which a lot of time is needed to conclude who built these amazing structures and when”.

Leading Russian geophysicists of the Schmits Institute of the Russian Academy of Sciences, Dr. Oleg Khavroshkin and Dr. Vladislav Tsyplakov, after two years of researching in Visoko, concluded that according to form, shape and characteristics the Bosnian pyramids are artificial pyramid constructions with a network of tunnels underneath them.”

So the qualified people who have actually done some scientific research, conducted tests and made measurements do think that these might be pyramids. I will take their word over the words of people who have never been to the site, who only seem interested in character assassination, rather than real research, or people who go to the site, but fail to conduct any scientific research.

Sadly most everyone believes that carbon 14 dating actually works correctly.

Carbon dating is a faith based system,

1 they believe that the amount of carbon 14 production is and has always been constant.

2 they do not take into account the fact of leaching both in or out of the test subject.

3 they do not know how much carbon 14 was in the test subject at the time of death.

Here are reports from various experts who support the idea that this might be a pyramid in Bosnia.

www.gigalresearch.com...

First International Scientific Conference about the Bosnian Valley of the Pyramids (ICBP) was held in Sarajevo (Bosnia-Herzegovina), from August 25-30, 2008.
(www.icbp.ba...)

English Edition of the ICBP Proceedings has just been published. This is unique collection of 50 articles about the Pyramid Science and comprehensive scientific investigation of the Bosnian pyramids in Visoko. Authors are coming from fourteen countries: Egypt, China, United Kingdom, Austria, Poland, Germany, Brazil, Serbia, Austria, Hungary, Italy, Croatia, Russia and Bosnia-Herzegovina. Book consists of 800 pages and more then 1000 color photographs and graphs.

Complete archaeological report of the distinguished Egyptologist and three times PhD in archaeology dr. Nabil Swelim was published in the Book. He claims that "Great Pyramid of the Egypt is the greatest pyramid and Bosnian Pyramid of the Sun biggest pyramid in the world". Russian geophysicists, academician dr. Oleg Khavroshkin and prof.dr. Vladislav Tsyplakov have three reports about geophysical, geochemical and seismic screening of the Bosnian Valley of the Pyramids and claim artificial properties of the pyramids.
Leading European scientific institute LGA Bautechnik from Germany performed geo-radar screening in Visoko (team lead by dr. Andreas Hasenstab) and concluded that 44 anomalies are found under the layer of vegetation and soil (inner passageways, walls).

Similar results are conformed by Serbian experts lead by dr. Dejan Vuckovic from Institute for Geophysics from University of Belgrade (Serbia). ICBP Proceedings gives original radiocarbon dating reports of the organic material found in Bosnian Valley of the Pyramids from two Labs: Silesian University of Technology (Gliwice, Poland) and Christian-Albrecht University (Kiehl, Germany).

And another,

www.philipcoppens.com...

Two years ago, a new page of history began to be written – though not all agree or seem to understand that this is indeed the case. Despite a string of highly credible and impartial scientists that have given their support to the project, in this age of tabloid and media frenzy, controversy sells better than hard scientific facts and the discovery of pyramid structures near the Bosnian town of Visoko is one of its biggest victims. And hence, the Western world – including many in the alternative field – remains largely ignorant of the dramatic new scientific discoveries that are occurring “right here, right now”.
For example: from August 25-30, 2008, the first International Scientific Conference on the “Bosnian Valley of the Pyramids” was presided over by Dr. Nabil Swelim, the owner of three Ph.D. Titles in Archaeological Sciences, and one of the world’s leading Egyptologists. He was but one of several scientific heavyweights that participated in a conference that some sceptics had labelled as “pseudo-scientific”, despite the presence of Dr. Oleg Khavroshkin, one of Russia’s leading scientists, or Dr. Mostafa El Abbadi, founder of the Library of Alexandria and several other leading Egyptologists and archaeologists, largely from Eastern Europe and the Middle East.

If you read the complete articles, you should note that they are not making any absolute claims, but having done some actual testing and investigation of the site, they are calling for more testing, and consider the possibility that this actually could be an ancient pyramid. One can only wonder why the Western world chooses to remain so skeptical, without even taking a serious look.

Originally posted by poet1b
Here are reports from various experts who support the idea that this might be a pyramid in Bosnia.
Complete archaeological report of the distinguished Egyptologist and three times PhD in archaeology dr. Nabil Swelim was published in the Book. He claims that "Great Pyramid of the Egypt is the greatest pyramid and Bosnian Pyramid of the Sun biggest pyramid in the world".

You'll note that Swelim himself has backed off on the assertion that the pyramid is man-made, and stressed that his use of the terminology fully encompasses natural geological features.

"The main subjects to understand the pyramid hill Visočica are geological." irna.lautre.net...

Originally posted by ACTS 2:38


Sadly most everyone believes that carbon 14 dating actually works correctly.
Carbon dating is a faith based system,
1 they believe that the amount of carbon 14 production is and has always been constant.
2 they do not take into account the fact of leaching both in or out of the test subject.
3 they do not know how much carbon 14 was in the test subject at the time of death.

Wrong. I think you had better bring yourself up to date on radiocarbon dating. Wiki does a pretty good job:en.wikipedia.org...

Secondly, the operating maxim in archaeology is "one date is no date"...and C14 is the way to go when the sample is appropriate, therefore any bias is noted and a poor sample will not be considered as a valid candidate.

reply to post by JohnnyCanuck


Nice link Johnny. I think the author makes some very good posts. It could be a hill that has been shaped into pyramid by human intervention, which makes considerable sense, and seems to be the direction most are taking. This sounds like a very strong possibility.

reply to post by Irnadupont

Good points Irna. There will allways be controversies regarding excavation of archaeological sites. In many cases it is a race against time to find as much as possible before something has to happen. This is a very common problem here in Norway where we have many historically interesting remains from earlier times and often too few resources to do a very thorough investigation when digging for ancient remains. Due to this there isn't much arcaeological work done at sites unless the land owner wants to build something there. According to law the land owner/builder has to pay for the arhaeological excavation before he is allowed to build anything there if there is known arhaeological remains there. Many archaeological sites are deliberately destroyed "by accident" and prehistoric artefacts are not reported to the government to avoid the restrictions it would be for the area if it were known that there was sething of historical interest on the site. Sometimes even known arcaeological sites are destroyed "by accident" when there is a conflict between the land owner and the government. The police has normally too few resources to investigate, and the few cases that ends in court normally ends without any punishment or with a very mild punishment for these kinds of crime.

Where they earlier used lots of time to excavate an area, they now use machines to remove all the top soil and only look at the lower layers for traces of buildings and log holes, and on occations find some artefacts from the bottom layers. There is much that could possibly be found in the removed layers but there is seldom enough resources and time to dig through that. Many places the archaeologists only has two weeks to dig out a big site before they start machining for a construction site.

It's certainly not only in Bosnia lack of resources is a threat to archaeological sites. You would think that a rich nation like Norway would have the resources to take good care of our own history and remains, but no. I really don't think it's much better here than it is in Bosnia regarding this (in many areas anyway). Sad but true.

Even if they do a bit sloppy work with the excavations, I'm not sure it had be better handled if the site had been located in another country like here in Norway. Here they would have used machines to remove the top soil before they had started with the fine work.

It's not scientifically correct to have the answer first, and in all your work do everything to prove that very idea. It may be productive but it may also be counterproductive if it wasn't what they thought it was or there was something else interesting that got rejected. I agree about this also, but unfortunately we don't live in a perfect world and I have been disappointed by how our history has been treated here in my own country too many times to believe that everything can be done the right way.

If it really proves to be man made pyramids in Bosnia there might be enough international interest to get the excavations into a more scientific track and channel more funds into the project. A raised interest would also benefit the archaeological community in other parts of the country as well.

I think it's still too early to conclude, but with more excavated it will be easyer to get proof for or against the "pyramids". I'm not convinced enough to conclude in any direction yet...

Originally posted by Skallagrimsson
There will allways be controversies regarding excavation of archaeological sites. In many cases it is a race against time to find as much as possible before something has to happen. This is a very common problem here in Norway where we have many historically interesting remains from earlier times and often too few resources to do a very thorough investigation when digging for ancient remains. Due to this there isn't much arcaeological work done at sites unless the land owner wants to build something there.

Where they earlier used lots of time to excavate an area, they now use machines to remove all the top soil and only look at the lower layers for traces of buildings and log holes, and on occations find some artefacts from the bottom layers. There is much that could possibly be found in the removed layers but there is seldom enough resources and time to dig through that. Many places the archaeologists only has two weeks to dig out a big site before they start machining for a construction site.

Thanks very much for taking the time to put together a thoughtful statement. I'd like to address a couple of the issues that you raise. True, most archaeology that you see locally is driven by development. It is much the same here in Canada. Much of our archaeological record is comprised of First Nations sites, given that European contact is dated to around 1550-1650. Municipal planning departments generally have a GIS layer that contains known sites, or hold a profile of probable site locations. When a building permit is applied for, then the system kicks in and if a site is likely to exist upon the land in question, then archaeological surveys are required. If there are indications of archaeological resources, then they are removed in a methodical fashion that preserves the site info and materials for later study and to add to the record.

While you are concerned about the topsoil being stripped indiscriminately, the rationale is that anything found in the plough zone...disturbed earth that has been tossed around by farming activities...has pretty much been removed from it's original context. This backdirt may be screened or not, depending upon circumstances. But you do make the common error that Archaeology is about the 'goodies'. The truth is that out of their original context, artifacts lose much of their value as indicators of anything beyond their presence upon the land. What is more important are features about homes and villages, things that tell us more about how these people lived and went about their lives. And that you only find by removing the disturbed earth above.

There are always exceptions, and a certain amount of archaeology is done for academic reasons, but that is controlled by school and museum budgets, and ultimately fall upon the taxpayer to sponsor. You'll agree that there is not a lot of money flowing into cultural heritage these days, and it is incumbent upon those interested to lobby their politicians to put more funding into these sectors.

And there are those who try to beat the system by destroying or even looting sites, but the laws are tightening up and fines getting serious for those who break them. Again, though, not a perfect world.