Homosexual Activity Among Animals Stirs Debate

Originally posted by HumptyDumpty
I call it suffering cause if you were a person that feels like they are a man trapped in a womens body, what would you call it? I call it suffering.

Most gays don't feel like they're the wrong gender. A few do and will transgender. But that's a small percentage.

or as I will call it from now on, a "disorder" that deals with peoples every day, every moment, their very being.

You could call it "sexual preference" and it would be a lot more accurate.

It means that its most likely GENETIC.... It means that animals that are not as smart as us do it, so that means that we could study their action and try to understand why humans do it better than we do now.

We are. But remember you're looking at two extremes. In addition to homosexuality and heterosexuality, there is bisexuality.

I do not see a problem with homosexuals.

Here are my beliefs on this subject.

I do not believe one is born gay, being gay, turning gay, experimenting, these are choices, everyone has free will.
I do believe however some people do turn/choose to be gay early in life, and show characteristics of what non-gay people would normally look at, as being gay.
I believe turning/choosing to be gay, is something that is triggered, rather it be from lack of a father, being raped, having a more female apperance, so they act the way they are treated as, whatever the case may be, it's triggered, by something, and is a choice.

I see nothing wrong with it, it's not a disease, it's not a reason to treat them differently, because outside of the sexual contact, they are just like you and I, who ARE straight.

God gave us free will, some use it to kill, others use it to suck some.... let em be.

I only say, that if homosexuality is genetic, than those who are practising it, fall out from the evolution as they may not bear youngs. An other viewpoint shows, that some animals practise homosexuality towards the dominant ones in a group, in order to keep their rank. It feels good to the dominant but may be painful to the offender. It does not mean at all, that animals like to have sex with their gender. In the case of humans, homosexuality is a bit complicated, but of course, it is not the right way in life.

Originally posted by HumptyDumpty


I call it suffering cause if you were a person that feels like they are a man trapped in a womens body, what would you call it? I call it suffering.

You #ing idiot!

Why the # do tyou think gay people feel they are a different gender in their own body? USe your #ing head, numpty!

As for all the rest of the cancerous rubbish you have written, I will not trouble myself with trying to put you straight. I learnt a long time ago that idiots such as your self are lost causes, I just hope you are not infectious!

I have only read to this pillocks reply before I got to annoyed to go any further, so apologies if I have mirrored what anyone else has said. I just hope if this has been said, the person had the restraint and calm to do it rationally instead of the anger and frustration I have used.


Mods, feel free to warn me. I stand by my feelings here and I will not apologise for what I have said, I am only slightly sorry I didnt really let rip but I am too tired and United V Celtic is about to start.


ohhhhh I have to stay far away from this thread or else I will lose all faith in humanity, this website and I will get migraines.

Originally posted by triplesod
You #ing idiot!

Why the # do tyou think gay people feel they are a different gender in their own body? USe your #ing head, numpty!

The insults and the profanity are not needed. Please keep things civil.

Well, this is one hell of a topic to enter. I will give my two rupees though, but in regards to ' 7 chakras ', my freind, you are hindu are you not ? Then you must be fully aware that homosexuality was common in India thousands of years ago, if not hundreds. There are many Hindu Mundars in India with carvings of what looks to be two women in sexual activity with thier breasts chipped off, to make them seem ' normal '. If you have been to India, I suggest you take a close look.

Deep

This isn't about homosexuality in animals but I still think it applies. Mainly because it deals with Homosexuality throughout history as well as the Biological area of the brain which is also involved.

BTW, HumptyDumpty, this is right in line with what I think you were talking about as far as Homosexuality being a genetic/biological 'problem'. Personally, I wouldn't use 'Problem' in the description since the 'problem' IMO comes from the intolerance of others who react negatively to people and/or things they do not understand. That will always create 'problems' instead of 'solutions' out of any situation.

Homosexuality - Does it have a Natural Cause?
viewzone.com...

As a young adult I began to ask other questions which seemed to allude scientific explanations. One of the most perplexing, for me, was why some people were homosexual.

I learned that there were homosexuals as far back as recorded history. Historians (Gore Vidal in particular) suggested that there has always been, more or less, a constant 10 to 15 percent of males that have preferred their own gender. Once again the question puzzled me: was homosexuality an aberration, an evil choice, a disease-- or could it be a natural phenomenon?

While watching a news story on brain research this year, I was surprised to learn that scientists had determined that the characteristics which make us "think" either as males or females was localized in a small portion of the brain called the hypothalamus. Autopsies showed that the relative size and configuration of this master gland is different in males and females. Further research indicated that the hypothalamus in homosexual men was significantly different from that of "straight" (heterosexual) men (see Science, 253: 1034-1037, 1991). To clarify this story, I contacted Dr. Barry Kosofsky, Chief of Neurology at Harvard Medical School's Massachusetts General Hospital in Boston.

Her (Dr. Ward - who was experimenting with the development of Rats and the effects of stress on the hypothalamus.) findings showed that if a mother is stressed during the early stages of pregnancy, she will release an adrenaline related hormone into her own bloodstream and that of her unborn baby. This hormone, called androstendione, is structurally similar to testosterone, the male hormone. If the baby carries "XY" chromosomes and is destined to become a male, testosterone needs to be active when the Central Nervous System (including the hypothalamus) is being formed. This is the only way that the CNS "knows" to develop along male lines. Because the stress hormone seems to bind to the receptors that would normally be receiving testosterone, there is the delay or blockage of the effectiveness of testosterone, even if it is plentiful.

In 1972, Dr. Ward had no idea that androstendione in male pregnancies would prevent or inhibit the hypothalamus to develop into a healthy male brain, but this stress-related hormone now appears to do just that. The brain makes its gender commitment very early in development and, once committed to either male or female, it can not change. The interference with testosterone in the later stages of pregnancy, or after birth, does little or nothing to inhibit primary gender development of the other organs of the body.

It is therefore possible that while the body and organs of an animal can be a "male," the brain can coincidentally be "female." This extreme reaction to maternal stress even has a very logical and natural purpose. Sensing that a population is under the stress of crowding or poor living conditions, nature provides this hormonal mechanism as a means to limit population growth and thereby reduce the cause of the stress. Homosexual behavior results in less offspring than heterosexual behavior.

Click the link above for a much more in depth look into the following research.

Sensing that a population is under the stress of crowding or poor living conditions, nature provides this hormonal mechanism as a means to limit population growth and thereby reduce the cause of the stress. Homosexual behavior results in less offspring than heterosexual behavior.

Isn�t that kind of what was said in the original post about animals? A mechanism to limit the growth of population. I can well believe some animals are born gay like humans.

I would say being gay is something you were born with though and is a genetic alteration from the usual norm [you know what i mean, im not saying because your gay your not normal]. I was often mistaken for a little girl when i was a kid [stop laughing] and i turned out straight. Personally i have no problem with homosexuality and have gay friends of both sexes and they are a colourful bunch. Bit bitchy sometimes, but just like everyone else. I can�t stand people who have a problem with gay people.

As to people who chose to be gay i just don�t know. Some people have a ferocious sexual appetite [this could apply to animals] and will basically shag anything, maybe, i don�t know. Some people are just experimental, maybe, and find they are quite ok with being with the same sex.

flipper flapping

Deep.

Hehe. I am not hindu. I am no religion. What made you think I am hindu? the energy talk?

As for ancient gays. Ancient roman baths envolved men and men I believe, also sodom and gamorah was something to do with gays no?.

[edit on 29-7-2004 by 7th_Chakra]

There is also a documented case of a male duck raping another DEAD male. This is not only a case for homosexuality in nature but also one for necrophilia.

The case in point being this guy in the Natural History museum in Rotterdam watchin this duck hit a window and drop, followed by this other male duck who proceeds to well... er... you know.. for aprrox. 75 mins (the guy actuallly sat there and timed it as a scientific observation).

Its an "all natural" world out there kids, enjoy!!

We have to realize that while we surely can consider the brains of our species to be the most evolved on this planet, we should have no illusions as to how much of our beaviour is and can be controlled by our mind. Biology is simply that much stronger than will. We're not that different from the rest of the inhabitants here on earth.

Originally posted by triplesod
You @^$#^%@$

Why the #@&$# do tyou think gay people feel they are a different gender in their own body? USe your #ing head, numpty!

The #@$##@$ that you're talking to was actually partly right.
Something did go wrong, and that is why some people are attracted to their own gender. Note that "wrong" means "different" or "not normal".
It does not mean bad/evil.

It also does not mean they are born in the wrong body, as most of the other brainfunctions of gay people fit their gender correctly.

You and Zed seem to misunderstand his point. He is saying gay people are born gay because of a proces outside of their own power/a genetic flaw.
In other words; being gay is not a choice or lifestyle, it's a way of being born.

And this is true.
His opinion is in no way damaging gay people, and I have a hard time understanding why a comparison between Hitler and him makes any sense whatsoever.
It seems a little hysterical to me.

Thank-you Jakko. You've understood me completely.


Triplesod and Zed seem to be really touchy on this subject. You guys seem to want to hang someone over this topic...you guys sure your ok with your sexuality? Maybe talking about this subject in the cold hard fact ways that it need to be talked about is something that you guys dont not want to comprehend, or belive, or even think about...Homophobic maybe?

Im not going to reply to your guys accusation of me mudering gays like holocaust days, or dragging them behind cars. That its the most disrepectfull thing Ive ever been accused of. If you guys feel like discussing the scientic facts compairing Homosexual behavior between animals and humans feel free, but keep your holocaust mongoring to another thread, thank you.

The quotes fro moJom above are very interesting to me. essecially the part about the section of brain being bigger in some gay people that is the section of the brain that is gender related. Also this is a huge point that Iam trying to make;

In 1972, Dr. Ward had no idea that androstendione in male pregnancies would prevent or inhibit the hypothalamus to develop into a healthy male brain, but this stress-related hormone now appears to do just that. The brain makes its gender commitment very early in development and, once committed to either male or female, it can not change. The interference with testosterone in the later stages of pregnancy, or after birth, does little or nothing to inhibit primary gender development of the other organs of the body.

It is therefore possible that while the body and organs of an animal can be a "male," the brain can coincidentally be "female." This extreme reaction to maternal stress even has a very logical and natural purpose. Sensing that a population is under the stress of crowding or poor living conditions, nature provides this hormonal mechanism as a means to limit population growth and thereby reduce the cause of the stress. Homosexual behavior results in less offspring than heterosexual behavior.

Imagine if they could balance the hormones proper and at least try to "prevent" this type of "disorder"(Zed and the other guy wont like that "disorder", but I could care less).

[edit on 7/29/04 by HumptyDumpty]

Originally posted by Corinthas
There is also a documented case of a male duck raping another DEAD male. This is not only a case for homosexuality in nature but also one for necrophilia.

The case in point being this guy in the Natural History museum in Rotterdam watchin this duck hit a window and drop, followed by this other male duck who proceeds to well... er... you know.. for aprrox. 75 mins (the guy actuallly sat there and timed it as a scientific observation).

Its an "all natural" world out there kids, enjoy!!

Hehehehe... necrophiliac gay duck... er, I don't know what to say, but I surely think, it does exist. As far as I know, necrophiliac humans do exist, but necrophiliac gays? What about them? Quite interesting to investigate...

Originally posted by dbates

Originally posted by lockheed
It certainly lends creedence to the point of view that homosexuality is genetic.

I don't see how this is possible. If genitcs played a part in homosexuals, shouldn't we be out of them by now? That is to say if penguins recieved homosexual behaviour from genetics, then how would theses genes be passed on? Two male penguins can not produce offspring together. Even if some male homosexual penguins had sex with female penguins, their preference for mating with male penguins would eventually thin out the homosexual penguin population so that their occurrence would be rare, and eventually extinct.

Perhaps you don't understand genetics, error catastraphe, genetic drift, random mutation, and other biochemical basics completley. It is far more complicated than many think. There are many good books on this same subject.

Originally posted by HumptyDumpty
Zed and the other guy wont like that "disorder", but I could care less.

Fine. Homesexual behavior then is a problem, physcological disease, disorder, genetic difference, lack of hormones, chemical imbalance, disorder...since you are so keen to apply a label.

You originally stated "My opinion is that being gay is a problem/decease/genetic default that might have a solution in the genetic field" and "I also think that there could be a solution for this 'problem' as I put it." The references I made are about times in history, when some tried to establish labels for people who were different. Others also tried to impose the solutions of what they percived as a "problem", just as you suggested.

My whole point is why not just forget the labels and forget trying to solve their "problem or disorder" for them? Either label you apply implies that consider yourself higher in some regard. Labels were applied to people of different beliefs and races all through history. Now people are coming out that have a different preference and you wish to label them too.

As for the baiting comments about sexuality and being homophobic, I suggest you save those for the mirror. With homosexuals fighting for fair treatment in the world, the military, and now with marriage...I'm sure the last thing they will be happy with, is being labeled as having a disorder or being different. THAT is my point. I am not so in fear that I need to label. I am not so fragile about my sexuality that I need to classify. Perhaps some of that will be lost on you. Maybe we could make a nice label for you then.

Here�s an article snagged from the New York Times that examines animal homosexuality in some detail:

Love That Dare Not Squeak Its Name
(This link does not require NYT registration)

I've always loved the name of that article.

To the best of my knowledge, this is nothing new. I remember reading about homosexual behavior in lab mice decades ago.

Now this is all off the top of my head from memory, so take it for what it's worth. Let's call it "opinion".

I sincerely doubt that homosexual behavior is anything new in animals, and it most definitely is nothing new in humans -- from sailors to Janissaries to harems to prisons the world over, it's a recurring and persistent theme.

Homosexuality is as old as sex.

So is it a �disease�, �disorder� or �dysfunction�? I suppose that�s a matter of opinion. My opinion is that it is most likely some sort of adaptation, and a purposeful one at that.

In the studies of mice, researchers reported observing rates of homosexual behavior proportional to population density. In other words, as cages became more crowded, more mice, males and female alike, began rejecting mice of the opposite sex and keeping the company of other mice of the same gender.

The postulate one can form from such observations is that perhaps homosexuality is a natural form of population control. However, this does not seem to be the only role of homosexuality, nor is homosexual behavior limited to animals (or people) in crowded conditions, nor do all animals become homosexual in crowded conditions.

But significantly, barring cultural prohibitions, varying degrees of bisexuality seem to be more of the norm in the animal kingdom than pure heterosexuality or pure homosexuality. The extent seems to depend on environment and a wide range of factors and influences that vary dramatically from one species to another and one environment to another.

While these observations are unlikely to affect cultural and religious taboos and their effects on the tone of discussion of this topic, acknowledgement of the fact that homosexuality is more extensive in nature than is commonly assumed may prove helpful in better understanding homosexuality in humans.



And don�t forget, when you�re talking Nazis, you�re talking Godwin's Law!

Edit: Silly little spelling errors.


[edit on 7/29/2004 by Majic]

I sincerely hope once the genetic problem of gays has been sorted science and those that decry any variation from their personal norm will then go on to solve the massive problem of short people, tall people, jug ears, squint eyes, blonde hair, red hair, black hair, black skin, yellow skin, white skin, high voices, low voices, fat people, skinny people et al, et al. You see those who want such things solved so only those they deem acceptable are allowed to come into being should realise that somewhere there are people who, for equally trivial, intolerant reasons, would regard you as part of a problem that needs solving.

None of us are perfect.

Celebrate it!

If homosexuality would be as old as sex, and if it would have to do anything with the strength of a society, then there would be spectecular signs of that in the human body over the evolution. In fact, homosexuality is an abnormal waste of the evolution, and it has no rights in the law of the nature. Simply, gays just cannot have kids, no matter how hard they try, they just have to become hetero to have kids. This is the case.

HD: It is your opinion, but it is quite rude to put it as suffering. Just be polite to others "stances" i believe is what Zed is saying.


Anyways, thats an interesting development. Might prove that being gay is scientific and not a "life-style" or "choice"