French ban on Islamic face veil comes into force

Originally posted by Saracen1
reply to post by IronArm

 

Why are you so hung up about white people?
I`m not suggesting "white people" are killing muslims.
The Western countries are killing them in their millions, this is irrefutable.
No doubt their armies have all races serving in their ranks, particularly US/uk.

Yes you may point to a terrorist killing here or there, but for sheer scale of murders, death and destruction, you cannot compare it to the western dogs of war.

I don't nessesarily agree with the wars, after all, I think that a nation with internal quarrel should deal within itself. Worked for the States, worked for Canada, the Celtic nations have taken care of alot of issues internally....

And as for the 'white people' well, you keep telling us that the immigrants are already too numerous and that immigrant people will continue to take over....so, that is why I'm defencive of my race. Silly, mayhaps, but hard to not see things in that light nay? I like having English blood. I'd rather not see that be killed off or breeded out.

MIllions? Exaggeration to be sure, thousands is believeable. Note, thousands of the members of the Armies of the west have died as well. All while trying to protect the natualized citizens from the extremists. Silly Armies. Let the extremists take over right?

reply to post by IronArm


I really am dumbfounded by some of your responses. Nobody wants to take your English blood, believe me, you can go on being as English as much as you like.

My point about there being millions of us here in the west, is to demonstrate to the anti immigration freaks, that by closing the door on immigration will do little to reverse the demographic changes which have been underway for decades in Europe.

Its not an implied threat that somehow we`re gonna breed the white race out of existence. That is just some age old white supremacist claptrap that was popularized in a book, at the turn of the 20th century called, "The Passing Of The Great White Race".
A lot of the racial arguments made in the book have been rehashed over the years, and seem to have found fertile ground among the modern day white nationalist movements in US/UK.

Ironically, the book was aimed at discouraging the immigration into the US from southern Europe, particularly Italy.

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by incrediblelousminds

 

Sorry, but Europe actually pulled back from colonialism, and empires, and has had numerous stretches of peace, while Islam has been continuously at war. A quick review of history proves you wrong.

Now you are changing the parameters of your definition. It's called 'backpeddling'.

I have consistently based my arguments on facts. I am sorry that the historical facts feed your paranoia and xenophobia.

Please show an example of 'my xenophobia'

And don't kid yourself, the paranoia and xenophobia accusations are just as off base as the racism accusations.

Xenophobia is not an empty epithet. It's an accurate term that fits the tone and content your posts. Its nothing to be ashamed of necessarily, but pretending you arent doesnt further your cause.

And don't kid yourself, the paranoia and xenophobia accusations are just as off base as the racism accusations. These numerous threads are aimed at one particular group of trouble makers, who create problems for everyone else.

Wow. "One group'. Yeah, no broad generalizations there or anything.

reply to post by Saracen1

Yes you may point to a terrorist killing here or there, but for sheer scale of murders, death and destruction, you cannot compare it to the western dogs of war.

That is simply false.

www.guardian.co.uk...

www.upi.com...

www.longwarjournal.org...

www.nytimes.com...

reply to post by Maslo


Try looking at objective reports of civilian casualties.... www.thewe.cc...

www.unknownnews.net...
www.dailymail.co.uk...

Originally posted by Saracen1
reply to post by IronArm

 

I really am dumbfounded by some of your responses. Nobody wants to take your English blood, believe me, you can go on being as English as much as you like.

My point about there being millions of us here in the west, is to demonstrate to the anti immigration freaks, that by closing the door on immigration will do little to reverse the demographic changes which have been underway for decades in Europe.

Its not an implied threat that somehow we`re gonna breed the white race out of existence. That is just some age old white supremacist claptrap that was popularized in a book, at the turn of the 20th century called, "The Passing Of The Great White Race".
A lot of the racial arguments made in the book have been rehashed over the years, and seem to have found fertile ground among the modern day white nationalist movements in US/UK.

Ironically, the book was aimed at discouraging the immigration into the US from southern Europe, particularly Italy.

I really have to go to great lengths in order for you to see things don't I. I wasn't implying my English blood, (which is already being passed on) But English blood in general. And you keep stating that you are outpopulating the white nations...sooo...I think that me worrying about my heratige is legitimate is it not?

As for that book, never heard of it. Never heard a quote from it. You forget, I'm from a small town of hardworking people in Canada. I'm not involved in any Nationalist Movements of any kind, I just am fighting for the English to maintain their...English.

reply to post by Saracen1




Your links point to nothing in particular either, try and add a certain page that you seen your 'objective' information from.

reply to post by IronArm


Hey man listen, there aint no way I`m gonna be able to outpopulate the white race, so your safe on that score.
Small town life with a small town mentality eh?

You need to chill man, seriously, if you believe the end of the white race is nigh then I don`t know what to say, apart from "hasta la vista chump".

Originally posted by Saracen1
reply to post by IronArm

 

Hey man listen, there aint no way I`m gonna be able to outpopulate the white race, so your safe on that score.
Small town life with a small town mentality eh?

You need to chill man, seriously, if you believe the end of the white race is nigh then I don`t know what to say, apart from "hasta la vista chump".

As one of the very few White English Speaking people here in Miami Florida I can tell you personally it rocks.

As an oddity that most of the Latins and Haitans don't encounter every day, it's kind of like being the first space alien to arrive on earth.

I get excellent treatment by wait staffs and counter help simply because "Look it's a gringo!"

I figure in another 10 years at this rate I will be so rare I can sell tickets to just see me!

Keep em coming, keep em coming, that's all I have to say!

nevermind

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Teh topic:

French ban on Islamic face veil comes into force

www.bbc.co.uk

A law has come into force in France which makes it an offence for a Muslim woman to conceal her face behind a veil when in public.

Anyone caught breaking the law will be liable to a fine of 150 euros (£133, $217) and a citizenship course.

(visit the link for the full news article)

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MOD NOTE: ALL MEMBERS: We expect civility and decorum within all topics - Please Review This Link.

Hello 23432,

Hello T

Perhaps I should make it more clearer .
My logic is as follows ; If there are approx. 6 million muslims in France , some of them bound to follow Sharia & Wahabism too .
This is inevitable as day follow night . First wave of muslims were not ' locals ' so to speak .
Current generation of muslims are locals yet aren't natives to the land .
Their yobbish behaviour is actually expected because these people are rootless and usually are stressed due to their own predicament .
Muslim in a non muslim land ?
That is hard for most muslims , just like the most christians would find it rather hard to live amongs muslims .
Why don't they go back ?
If asked by the majority of natives in a democratic way ; I believe most muslims would leave European soil willingly .

Totally agree with you that there is bound to be a certain number who follow the Wahabist and Sharia route, especially when the Saudis are promoting that by throwing money at it. I do not agree at all with your last comment, most Muslims would rather not leave European soil. We provide much better health care, welfare and our social infrastructure is better. Why leave when they can come, with their many wives and family and live in the lap of luxury selling dope they import from their homeland? And to add, there is no excuse for yobbish behaviour other than bad parenting.

I don't think Europe can afford to expell her muslim population by means of violence .
Yet it can be done via Democracy .

I think Europe has to expell the more radical Islamists for it's own sake, for it's national identity and for it's culture to continue. Currently, if you walk the streets of certain French towns you could make the mistake of being in some North African town. Is that right? Some would say multi culturalism is a good thing, it is when all parties want to play ball. From my and millions of other's experience, some Muslims do not want to play ball at all. They want to invade, take over, dictate. This is the bad element, this needs to be exorcised for both Europeans and Muslim's sake.

Liberation of women via regulating what she willingly chooses to wear ?
This is a bad example I am afraid .
How would you reason with a girl who wants to wear it without being oppressed by anyone ?
Answer me that question if you can because I can't really find an answer to it myself .
What if SHE wants none of your liberation nor any of the change you are attempting to bring into her life without her consent ?
She has to give her consent for it to be legal and be within the law , wouldn't you say so too ?

Again you raise a good point. What if she does wish to wear the Burqua and is not being forced, then quite simply .. she should leave France and go back to her own country where it is permitted. I know this is borderline fascism, but again.. the line must be drawn somewhere. Call me a racist, call me a bigot, I truly do not care. I have seen the harm caused and done by the more radical elements and they ARE fascist and they ARE bigots and they HATE us more than we ever hated them. You get my point? They want us out, they want it all. Why should we stand by idly and permit it?

As for men who forces their wives to wear it , persecute them under existing laws . Meddling in some elses affairs comes to mind if I may be so bold .

This is why the law was put into place, because many Muslim women spoke out against the abuse and being forced to wear this apparel. Those wishing to wear the Burqua will be persecuted under this new law, there wasn't a law in place by which to persecute them before. So in fact what the French have done is put in place something to assist those who are being oppressed, what they could not do is find a way to target the right people so they targetted everyone. Again this comes down to damned if you do, damned if you don't. I'd rather get them all and manage to root out the bad ones, then not get any.

A willing burqa wearer in France can't enjoy those very principles which made French what it is . That is a pity indeed and it shows the stress of the society in general .

A willing Burqua wearer isn't welcome in France any longer. I don't think you actually get the point here. France didn't ever say "Welcome Islam, come and take over, build Mosques everywhere, sell dope on street corner, take over the HLMs, create no police zones, create fear, be abusive. Maybe France has had enough now? We, the West, have stood by for centuries letting this attrition happen, saying nothing, pleading Liberte, Egalite and Fraternite, while they rape our women, erode our national identity, infiltrate and spit on us. Because we are educated and civil people do we need to keep saying yes, piss all over me, I like it...mmmm give me more? I think not. Again it is a small element, but it is enough to cause mass stereotyping, sadly. What should we do about that?

Tamils and Kamikazes comes to mind . Muslims are not the only ones who commit suicede missions . But you see , here is the problem ; there are 6 millions potential suicide bombers in France according to how you probably think .

No, I don't think it's 6 million because i'm an educated man. I know it is a small %, but it is still a %. When Christians start strapping bomb jackets to themselves and going out blowing up innocent Muslims, then i'll change my views.

Burqa being a security measure ?
Well , perhaps there is a point about this but it really is miniscule .
A coat would definetely do the same job as burqa . So if this is about security , I don't feel safer , so to speak nor should you .

That was purely an example, but as some other person posted some Englishman, journalist I believe he was, went through security at an airport without being asked one to deveil while wearing a Burqua. So.. it is a real threat and issue. Nothing should be ignored for the sake of religion, especially when it is a falacy.

Public places might ban burqa , following the Turks and some Arabs ; but let me tell you , there will always be a miniscule number of women out there who will tell you that their rights are being violated .

How do we deal with them ?

Do they not count ?

Again I agree with you, there will always be a certain % of stupid people who don't see the "light" and wish to continue this practice born out of control and barbarism. Let them practice it, in the HLMs and in their homes. It is not welcome in the public places of France anymore. Line drawn, thank you, move along, no Burqua wearing woman to see here.

I often would take the mickey out of my burqa wearing cousin in the past . I actually talk to burqa wearing women who were not oppressed .
You should do the same and see that there is a whole lot of new facts to be discovered .

I have spent a great number of hours on both sides of the fence. I come to the same conclusion everytime. Were we permitted to walk around in shorts and no top in Muslim countries and build cathedrals, and be accepted, my arguements would change in a second. They don't allow that, they don't allow us the same priviledges we allow them, why? Because they are not liberal and democratic and don't give a monkeys about our rights, our religion, our culture. The door swings both ways and I am sick to death of it swinging only one way because they "are the minority". When they are no longer the minority, what then? How far do we let it go? How much do we give? Shall we change all our courts to Sharia courts? Start stoning people? Start public beatings and flogging?

'Them' being just about 300 women , I think you are being rather greedy .

Why do you assume that all 6 million muslims would need education about this subject ? Doesn't the % 99 of muslims in France do not wear this garment , yes ? The conclusion being that they are ' educated ' enough to not fall for extremists views .

Thank you for making my point. 300 women and the world is crying, right? Time to get some perception going here.

Is there really a problem with burqa wearers in France or are you also silently adding ALL immigration problems on top of this particular one ?
You know , if you wanted to eat an elephant , you would start with a small piece first , you wouldn't try to shove the whole animal in to your mouth in one go , would you ?

There is a huge immigration problem in all of Europe. See the UK, see Germany. It is an issue. It won't go away. National Socialism is the only way forward if you wish to protect your homelands. It's a sad fact, but it is realistic. That being said, 50% of my personal friends are Muslims, however they hate the other Muslims who give them a bad name.

Well my money is on this law being cancelled in next 2 years . I bet you a double smileys and hope Allah will forgive me for my indiscreet behaviour .
Masses of French comes out and protests then government of France will have no choice but to go further political right and that my friend is not good for French either .

I will take that bet. If they do change it i'll be protesting in the streets, along with millions of other French people. I will also be voting Le Pen in the hopes these issues finally get resolved, why? Because again I think it's time for change, I think it's time for any person living in France to be for France, not out for themselves and to screw everyone else over. It's taken 20 years for me to go from being a liberal, loving everyone, to being this way.. and four years living in Toulouse and Paris did it. It wasn't my mind which changed itself you know, it was experience that did it. Cause and effect. If all Muslims and I do mean ALL, were willing to integrate, abide by our Western laws and truly be for France none of these issues would have ever arisen. What do you want me to say? I can't help the fact some people are just too F'ing stupid to realise the harm they cause out of their egotistical mentality.

It doesn't surprise me that the French muslim women wouldn't want burqa . Why would they ? They live at the heart of fashion , obviously they will enjoy it .

Still , they also are making a mistake imho .

This is an issue about personal freedom and liberty and justice .

I don't agree on them making a mistake. That is a personal opinion 23432.

This is not entirely true . There are women out there who does wear this thing without being manipulated or oppressed . They are the ones who will be deprived those 3 things ( Liberte, Egalitie, Fraternite) we are talking about .

The chicken and the egg comes to mind. Yes women now do it out of choice, because they don't understand the meaning. I'm sure in years to come we will all be doing stupid things because they became ingrained in our culture, we will have lost the meaning and will do so willingly, like sheep and idiots.

Well , carefull there T , you may be on your way to tyranny .
One must obtain the consent of the governed , otherwise it is a regime of tyranny .
It makes no difference how few the number of people who are denied freedom , liberty and justice .

Again 23432, I have come to the end of the road of giving and understanding when the other party doesn't care. There is no reasoning with these bad elements, so eventually yes tyranny is the way forward. Again what do you want me to say here? Should we just let is continue because we are on the higher moral ground? When do you stop and think and decide you are being abused and should do something about it? It isn't all about the poor Burqua wearing Muslim women you know? The poor abused frightened French also have rights, or did we forget that because they are the followers of Liberte, Egalite and Fraternite and we can use that against them, abuse those principles and premise and rape the country until it's bled dry.

With kind regards,
T

Dear Proto,

The French Lifestyle isn't being threatened how could it be. These women aren't walking down the street with machine guns telling French people how to dress or live, they are just walking down the street minding their own business.

This is the French just simply forcing their lifestyle on people to self validate it, and using every excuse in the book to try to justify it.

Again you demonstrate you have no clue what you're talking about. Sitting in Miami, i'm not surprised. Were you to actually do a little research or better still visit France and specific areas of Paris you'd see that the French haven't forced their lifestyle on anyone, it is the other way around.

Why don't you go read about prayer meetings which happen in Paris streets where people, of any culture, are no longer permitted access to their shops, houses and why? Because a specific group of Muslims have decided to take over the streets, with their own security and the French police won't do anything in case they offend them. Again those nasty French imposing their lifestyle, how dare they, right?


T

They should do the same here in the USA... If I wore a mask into a store I would probably have the cops on my ass in minutes....

reply to post by poet1b

I don't see why it is so hard to believe that I support the burqa ban because it is a tool used for the oppression of womens' rights.

Dude, because by supporting the ban of it you are supporting oppressing women's rights!! It's seriously that simple.

I've really been enjoying this debate and have been lurking for the past god knows how many pages just enjoying the banter, but had to pipe up at that one.

Originally posted by poet1b
Yeah, if a woman starts wearing a big pair of dark sunglasses on a cloudy day and keeps them on in the grocery store, that would be suspicious! There is a good chance someone will report such a thing. With the Burqa, all is concealed.

You can't be serious. Surely nobody could be such a meddling busybody as to phone up the police upon seeing a woman wearing sunglasses on a cloudy day !

Off the top of my head, there are a number of reasons why a woman may be wearing sunglasses on a non-sunny day:

1. She may be light-sensitive.
2. Because it may, or may not, be considered to be fashionable.
3. To hide a black-eye that was incurred during a fight.
4. To hide bruising that was caused by an accident.
5. To cover up a physical disfigurement around her eyes or upper cheekbone area.
6. If she's blind in one eye, or if she has a glass eye.
7. If she messed up her make-up and was in a hurry.
8. Because she felt like it.

Considering that you suggest that someone may call the police when they see a woman wearing sunglasses on a cloudy day, then surely these same people would call the police when they see a woman wearing a burqa in any weather ? Thereby making an objection to the wearing of a burqa or niqab on these grounds, redundant.

Originally posted by poet1b
If someone's neighbor, who is a bachelor, goes on vacation, returns, and suddenly has a 11 year old girl living with him, might be suspicious. Chances are good that someone will call the police. Cover her up with a burqa, and nobody knows the difference.

Why would it be suspicious ?

It could be her uncle who has become his niece's guardian due to a variety of possible circumstances.


Let's suppose a bachelor has brought over an 11-year-old bride with him; he could easily take her out in public with her wearing a hat, scarf and sunglasses, so as the only features that she revealed would not immediately indicate her age.

Why do you think that burqas should be banned for this reason, yet you don't apparently think that an ensemble of 'permitted' facial wear should also be prohibited ?

Originally posted by poet1b
Who do you think you are fooling?

I'm not the one who is fooling others.

Originally posted by Saracen1
reply to post by Dhimmie

 

Hey dhimme, I swear I`ve come across you before, on another site, Islamwatch I think.

I haven't ever used a forum on that site, but hey, welcome to my world buddy

reply to post by Nammu


All the brutes who like to beat their women say the same thing. She wants it. See how she keeps coming back for more.

The nasty little biotch knows she deserves it, I am doing her a favor.

The whole, they want to wear burqa's argument is the same sort of thing all brutes claim.

Maybe there is a small portion of women who like to be physically abused, just as maybe there is a small portion of women who want to wear a burqa, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't write laws against the barbaric practices.

Maybe she wants the beatings, wants to wear the burqa, because that is the only way she knows.

Originally posted by dizzylizzy
Are there any female Mullah's? where are the woman who had a say if their gender are happy to be covered from head to foot in a shroud, There aren't any, it is male dictated.

How many female priests or cardinals have been ordained by the Roman Catholic church ?

Where are the women to say if their gender are happy about any decrees that are passed by the RC church in Catholic countries or cultures ?


The point that you, and others, are missing when talking about these women being ''covered from head to foot'', is that men in these more traditional communities also have to dress in a certain way.

I'd be surprised if, in cultures where the burqa or niqab is usually worn by women, men weren't also strictly expected to adopt a certain attire, such as the 'apron' type garment that is worn on the front, from the belt to the knees.


Where is your indignation at a woman, in most Western countries, forcibly having to cover up her breasts ?

How is that cultural norm any worse than a a woman feeling obliged to cover up another part of her person ?

Originally posted by dizzylizzy
Women in Saudi Arabia cannot go out unless covered up in black which absorbs heat

Women can go out in France, or any other Western country, without having to cover their head, face, arms, stomach, legs or shoulders, and they can dress in any colour they want.

I fail to see how your comment has anything to do with the French burqa ban.

Originally posted by dizzylizzy
women were and still are in some areas of Afghanistan beaten for showing an inch on ankle.

Women in France aren't beaten for showing an inch of ankle, so, once again, I really don't see this line of argument at all.

Originally posted by dizzylizzy
There are many cultural traditions which are unexeptable in the West.

Of course; cultural traditions that violate the laws of any given country are not going to be tolerated in that country.

Covering one's face with a burqa or niqab is not against the law in most Western countries, yet many are changing their laws to discriminate against those who wear these clothes.

I doubt that the French have penned a law that prohibits a woman from wearing a hooded top, hat, sunglasses and scarf, despite the fact that that exposes the same amount of the face as a burqa does, and less than a niqab does.

The law is discriminatory, and a blow to the concept of ''freedom of expression''.

Originally posted by dizzylizzy
Young girls at Muslims schools have to cover up as part of the uniform, and have to adhere to this rule at all times. They have no choice.

Young boys and girls in Western schools have to cover up as part of their uniform, and have to adhere to this rule at all times. They have no choice.

Originally posted by dizzylizzy
Doesn't the burqa inhibit social interaction? we humans use facial expressions to communicate.

So do a number of things, such as sunglasses, headphones, scarves, yet there is no call for them to be banned.

Communication is based upon the interaction between the speaker/writer and listener/reader, so if we want to prevent anything that inhibits this interaction, then I guess we should all ''down tools'' and head back to our caves.

reply to post by torqpoc


That is an exceptional post. Thanks for putting it together.

Western culture is in the middle of a hard turn to the right, and the politically correct crowd who insist that we turn a blind eye towards abusive behavior, blaming it all on poverty, and a myriad of other flimsy excuses. who promenade the politically correct nonsense are trying to put out fire with gasoline.

The real truth is that the burqa ban doesn't go nearly far enough.

One of the good points of the law, is that they are going to take the women they find wearing the burqa into the station, where they will no doubt llok into her living situation, and weather or not her husband is abusive.

This is when they will find the beaten women and the child brides.

They really need to beef up their police force, and re-establish a police presence in Muslim controlled neighborhoods, or things will continue to deteriorate.