The Real Scientific proof of GOD

I wanted to post this for some time, but did not, however now I have to, as I was asked for my proof by some people on this forum. I thank those people for asking me for proof as that gave me the push to post this thread.

When reading this thread please keep an open mind but not so open your brain falls out. The scientific group will (in my opinion) be able to see where I am going with this thread. But T think I need to be ready to be flamed by the religious group.

I will not post any links in this post, because everything I state will be well known scientific facts.

So now I will get to the meat of the matter.

Definition of God
Lets face it, we cant prove/disprove something that has an unlimited number of definitions. So for this thread God will be defined by "generally accepted" qualities of God. So what are the qualities of God?

1. God has no beginning or end. (i.e. God was never "born" and can never die)
   
2. God is everywhere.
   
3. God is all powerful.
   
4. God is all knowing.
   

So we are looking for "someone" or "something" with those qualities.

The first quality. "God has no beginning or end." Think people, the first law of thermodynamics. "Energy can be neither created nor destroyed. It can only change forms." So we can say that God is energy. Since God cannot be created nor destroyed, and neither can energy.

But it gets better. E=MC^2 that means that all mass is Energy, and what comprises ALL mass and energy? The universe (or muliverse, once proven) of course. The universe comprises of all mass and energy there is and mass is energy and energy is God, so it follows that the universe is God.

To simplify God is all matter and energy that there is. From now on I will use the word universe to describe all matter and energy that there is.


The second quality. God is everywhere. The universe is everywhere, God is everywhere, simple.

The third quality. God is all powerful. What is more powerful than the universe? nothing, because the universe compromises of everything. So universe is all powerful. and so is God.

The fourth quality. God is all knowing. Since the universe is "everything" it will mean that only the universe can know about everything, thus it is all knowing, and so is God.

Conclusion, the Universe is God, where universe is defined as "All matter and energy that there is". This definition is here for future proofing, so that it will automatically include multiverses, parallel universes, or any other universes that are discovered.

So the bible....quaran etc are all lies then in that case

I don't get it. Where is the proof that the universe is all knowing given that to know something the universe must be a living intelligent entity with the capacity to experience and reflect upon those experience in which to gain knowledge of all things.

Looks more like wordplay than proof.

If there is a 'God' responsible for creating the Universe and everything it... 'He' is far too powerful for the human mind to comprehend.



Just my thoughts on the matter.

Allah/God choses not to reveal himself in this time because it is just a test. He created the universe. How can you expect to outsmart an omnipotent/infinite intelligence?

If I created a fishbowl and placed a fish in it and I ask the fish to prove their was a creator, how would the fish go by to produce that proof?

We simply do not have the intelligence to produce the proof if it was meant to be produced. Maybe god created the universe in such a way that you cannot prove him. That is the beauty of God and his infinite power/intelligence/omnipotence/everlasting

Here is mathematical proof/evidence for the "existence" (if that is the right word) of God:
smphillips.8m.com...
Spend the next year assimilating it. You will find it time well spent. Then you won't have to waste any more time on theological word games.

reply to post by micpsi


Mathematics doesn't prove the existence of a god. Try again.

Originally posted by THE_PROFESSIONAL
Allah/God choses not to reveal himself in this time because it is just a test. He created the universe. How can you expect to outsmart an omnipotent/infinite intelligence?

If I created a fishbowl and placed a fish in it and I ask the fish to prove their was a creator, how would the fish go by to produce that proof?

We simply do not have the intelligence to produce the proof if it was meant to be produced. Maybe god created the universe in such a way that you cannot prove him. That is the beauty of God and his infinite power/intelligence/omnipotence/everlasting

Please enlighten us all why an all knowing, all powerful god would bother testing us? Why not just love us and share with us?

Have a look in genesis and tell me what you think of god. God could of been the survivors of a catastrophe, God could of been E.Ts, god could be something that we will never know, until god reveals itself. There was more than one god in the bible. They were physical beings from my point of view and unfortunetly these beings probably didn't know where they came from either, but they created us, or they are us. I'm putting my bet on a very intelligent life form being our gods.

reply to post by kaleshchand


You may well be right about this.

Although i'll pick up on what you touched on earlier in your thread..the Universe could be a tiny part of what we primitive beings think of as the everything.

And come to that, i think if human beings are around for long enough (doubtful considering the knobs running things), we'll discover that the Multiverse is itself only a small component of what is really a mindbendingly more massive structure.

The vastness, the sheer scale of what this structure would ultimately take is probably going to be simply too massive for many to get their heads around, but with something this huge, (these are not the correct words to describe something this large, but the words haven't been invented to properly do it justice), would be at the very least concious, but more probably omnipotent...as in what we'd consider to be 'God'.

This 'God' isn't (in my opinion) what we think of as the traditional god of the bible, that creature and it's cohorts were simply another , very advanced species. Highly technical, but hardly devine....a divine being, does not slaughter innocents when it doesn't get it's own way..as the biblical god does fairly frequently.

An infinite god does not require or demand worship or obedience, it does not require praise to bolster an ego...a genuine god comprising everything there is and ever will be would not possess an ego, and would therefore not act in egotistical ways.

The actual god is not a god at all, it is a living, self aware, unimaginably enormous Multiversal structure, without such petty concerns as demanding followers and sycophants, under the thread of death and destruction should they not comply...that is describing something else entirely.

A conscious Multiverse sounds much more realistic.

reply to post by loves a conspiricy


What? How does what hes said, translate to the bible being lies? It proves the existence of GOD and does not falsify the bible. Someone just doesnt want the bible to be true because they may be guilty.. hmmmm

I like your theory...
I will not argue with you...
I do personally believe that God is a "central" being... but as your OP states...
i also believe that everything is connected to him...
quite like he is "hard-wired" into the system and vice-versa

Originally posted by kaleshchand

The fourth quality. God is all knowing. Since the universe is "everything" it will mean that only the universe can know about everything, thus it is all knowing, and so is God.

Conclusion, the Universe is God, where universe is defined as "All matter and energy that there is". This definition is here for future proofing, so that it will automatically include multiverses, parallel universes, or any other universes that are discovered.

Nice post with interesting conclusion , but I have to disagree with conclusion 4. The universe is not all knowing , it only contains all the information , but in order for it to be all knowing it would have to be conscious, self aware and intelligent , which it is not . It is like saying that the computer chassis that holds all the components of your PC is super smart , because it has access to the internet . No it is not super smart , it only has access to the information but on its own it is just a piece of metal with wires

Now don't get me wrong , this is a very good definition and I would tend to agree that the universe (at least to us) is somewhat a God since it did create us and our life cycle is determined by its boundaries and laws (at least for now ) . But this is not the type of God that religion is trying to prove , which would be a conscious, self aware , super intelligent being that is consciously controlling the uni/multi verse.

Originally posted by loves a conspiricy
So the bible....quaran etc are all lies then in that case

Yep, lies damn lies.

Second line

Originally posted by mikesk8s247
reply to post by loves a conspiricy

 

What? How does what hes said, translate to the bible being lies? It proves the existence of GOD and does not falsify the bible. Someone just doesnt want the bible to be true because they may be guilty.. hmmmm

No it doesn't prove anything of the sort.

In fact it doesn't 'prove' anything at all, let alone 'proof' of a god, biblical or otherwise.

It does offer a hypothesis though, which is a very long way from proof of any kind.

If anything, it degrades the validity of a biblical god (riding around in aerial chariots and thrones) being a divine entity, and goes a way to showing it for what it really was...a very advanced, but very corporeal and *flawed* species of ET or ED beings.

reply to post by kaleshchand


Wow, kal,

I think you have done brilliant research.

And you may well be right.

Deities, help keep the masses amused, I have never understood why man is the only one that prostrates itself before a deity, one would think, that animals would have it hard wired to also do this. Maths is maths, religion is religion, neither are two useful for getting a cow out of the bog.

Originally posted by THE_PROFESSIONAL
Allah/God choses not to reveal himself in this time because it is just a test. He created the universe. How can you expect to outsmart an omnipotent/infinite intelligence?

If I created a fishbowl and placed a fish in it and I ask the fish to prove their was a creator, how would the fish go by to produce that proof?

We simply do not have the intelligence to produce the proof if it was meant to be produced. Maybe god created the universe in such a way that you cannot prove him. That is the beauty of God and his infinite power/intelligence/omnipotence/everlasting

The fish couldn't prove you are the creator because you are not the creator, you are just a guy who put a fish in a bowl, you neither made the fish, the bowl or the water that is in it. And perhaps the fish already knows who god is? Ever spoken to a fish to ask him? perhaps they know and are secretly laughing at us from their little bowls

reply to post by marsend


Getting the cow out of the bog - would that be because you care about that cow?

Or because she is just money?

As if I need to ask.

Some people have their eyes on the sky, not the bog.

reply to post by Thill

The universe is not all knowing , it only contains all the information , but in order for it to be all knowing it would have to be conscious, self aware and intelligent , which it is not .

How do you know the Universe (Multiverse) is not concious and self aware (on a level we could not fully appreciate)?

I would beg to differ...i realise how *crazy* and 'new age' what i'm about to say sounds, but i hate liars, and don't lie unless i really have to for whatever reason...i have asked the 'Universe' for help twice in my life...and twice it delivered.

My wife and i have been together a long time..we have travelled the world (well, not all of it, but we've been 'around'), got all of the pubs and clubs and dinner plates thrown up the walls during petty arguments right out of the way, and decided it was time to start a family, before we left it too late..

Well, that was the theory. In practice it never works out exactly as planned, and in our case, despite 'trying' very hard (i like trying) nothing was happening...this went on for more than three years...and the biological clock was ticking louder and louder with every passing month.

We resorted to testing, and we were both deemed to be physically able, but it wasn't happening. We signed up to IVF (test tube programme), and waited for our appointment, which was on a Wednesday afternoon.

On the Monday evening before our appointment, i decided to literally ask the Universe for help.

Yes...i actually said the words, and asked the Universe to help out, if it felt we were deserving of being parents.

I was alone, no TV or PC, no distractions at all.
I sat in a dimly lit room, looking up at the stars through the window and i asked if the Universe thought that we were deserving, could it help out with our efforts for a family. I made the promise that should it decide to offer assistence, that we would endevour to be the best parents we possibly could be...then i simply said thanks for listening, and whatever it decided should happen, i would go along with and said goodbye.

I did not address 'it' as god, father, creator or anything like that...i simply addresses 'it' as i would any other as a sentient, concious entity and basically whispered what i had to say.

Long story short, the very next morning, *not* having told her of my little 'weird' new age type chat with the stars, my wife 'had a feeling' (that's how she put it)...so we popped off to the chemist to get a test..and sure enough...pregnancy was in the house!

Remember we'd been trying for a baby for over 3 years, and this was the very day before we were due to go for our artificial insemination appointment.

Coincidence? Possibly.

But after our first child, we began thinking that two would be a nice round number, one each to replace each of us when we go (not adding or subtracting to the overall population), and to give our first child company too of course..

Again, we tried for years to get pregnant,,,over two years this time.

So...i did exactly what i did the first time...i again asked the 'Universe' for help and guess what happened?

Well, suffice to say we now have our two beautiful, kind, clever fantastic children and we are being the best parents we can be.

Coincidence again? Two for two? Possibly...but usually, lightening doesn't strike twice in the same place.

Either way, coincidence or Universal approval, i thank the Universe for our opportunity to have this wonderful experience.

One very important point about all this...i do not have all the answers...i don't know how or why it works, only that in our case, it worked wonderfully. I don't know the mechanisms, i don't understand what kind of physics could be operating to facilitate this...but it works.

The only requirement as far as i can tell, is that you *really* have to want what it is you're requesting (*not* demanding), you have to somehow 'deserve' what you're asking for (i don't know how it's gauged), and you have to concentrate hard on what you're saying. Being polite and appreciative doesn't seem to hurt either.

Oh,. i think the Universe is much, much more than a limitless collection of matter and energy...much more.