Originally posted by IAMIAM
Are you within that pencil? Is that pencil within you?

Absolutely. We're all in it, it's in all of us, plus it's all powerful and all knowing.
Because I said so.
Apparently that's all it takes under this methodology.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by IAMIAM
Are you within that pencil? Is that pencil within you?

Absolutely. We're all in it, it's in all of us, plus it's all powerful and all knowing.
Because I said so.
Apparently that's all it takes under this methodology.

Then indeed that pencil is God to you.

It is just a word my friend, define it how you will

With Love,

Your Brother

I believe this is called "Pantheism". It's certainly not proof of any god, but it an alternative spiritual view that more derived from science. YOU still create the god though. You assign humanistic meaning to the natural world.

Originally posted by IAMIAM

Then indeed that pencil is God to you.

Ahh. But my subjective opinion does not establish the objective existence of anything.

And this is why the OP fails

This is an interesting subject .
Some people say that God `blew himself up` because he was lonely.
I believe that God is not only his creation , (the Universe , us , and everything) but is also outside of his creation. That stands to reason if you think about it. If there is a God , he must be out side of time and space to have created it.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by IAMIAM

Then indeed that pencil is God to you.

Ahh. But my subjective opinion does not establish the objective existence of anything.

And this is why the OP fails

He has not failed because he has established an understanding of the divine for himself. He may not have proven it to YOU, but why does that matter.

God is the acknowledgement that there is something greater than our selves. That we are not in control of everything in this existence. That we do not know everything there is to know, that we are not all powerful.

It is an acknowledgement that humbles the ego, that we learn to appreciate this life a bit more than simply using it to please ourselves. It opens our hearts and minds to the vastness of it all.

Why you down people for having come to such an understanding is beyond me.

I understand if he was trying to foist some kind of doctrine on you. If he was trying to use his idea of the divine to hamper your own actions and thought, then yes, I would stand with you and denounce his understanding of God.

The OP is not doing this though. He merely came to the acknowledgement that there IS something all powerful, all Knowing, ever present, and all good and that something is the sum total of all there is.

If you would get past your own ego and stop thinking YOU are all these things, you too may be humble enough to know that you are NOT all knowing, all powerful, ever present, and as gloriously good as the sum total of all that there is.

That is all it is about. The Awe of this existence.

With Love,

Your Brother

Originally posted by kaleshchand

The first quality. "God has no beginning or end." Think people, the first law of thermodynamics. "Energy can be neither created nor destroyed.

Self defeating argument right there mate!

In the same way that religious protagonists exclaim that the universe cannot of have been spontaneously created without a guiding hand or intelligence behind it, the argument must logically be inclusive of the matter/energy that god is made of. i.e; God cannot of spontaneously appeared before time began from nothingness, unless there was a guiding hand behind his creation.

Originally posted by kaleshchand
The second quality. God is everywhere. The universe is everywhere, God is everywhere, simple.

Yet when he walked into the garden of Eden, he asked aloud, "Adam, where are you?" Had he of been everywhere and known everything, he would have had no need for such a question. Not so simple after all and a curious oversight on your behalf.

Originally posted by kaleshchand
The third quality. God is all powerful. What is more powerful than the universe? nothing, because the universe compromises of everything. So universe is all powerful. and so is God.

That is a statement limited to the human races infantile knowledge of said universe. It runs on nothing but pure presumption. It seems that you fill the gaps of human knowledge with god. Richard Dawkins often refers to this as the 'God of The Gaps".

Originally posted by kaleshchand
The fourth quality. God is all knowing. Since the universe is "everything" it will mean that only the universe can know about everything, thus it is all knowing, and so is God.

Where was Adam again in the garden of Eden? Some place that god was miraculously 'unknowing'?

Originally posted by kaleshchand
Conclusion, the Universe is God, where universe is defined as "All matter and energy that there is". This definition is here for future proofing.

Umm.. No! Back to the drawing board I'm afraid!

Originally posted by IAMIAM
He has not failed because he has established an understanding of the divine for himself. He may not have proven it to YOU, but why does that matter.

Because reality is not determined by someone's subjective imagination.

God is the acknowledgement that there is something greater than our selves.

It is? Because you repeatedly define god as the universe and all that is in it. So now, it's an "acknowledgement"?

That we are not in control of everything in this existence. That we do not know everything there is to know, that we are not all powerful.
Why you down people for having come to such an understanding is beyond me.

Coming to that realization is not something that I come down on anyone for. I only respond appropriately to ludicrous metaphysical claims.

I understand if he was trying to foist some kind of doctrine on you. If he was trying to use his idea of the divine to hamper your own actions and thought, then yes, I would stand with you and denounce his understanding of God.

His understanding of god is arbitrary and unbacked by anything except a poor argument.

The OP is not doing this though. He merely came to the acknowledgement that there IS something all powerful, all Knowing, ever present, and all good and that something is the sum total of all there is.

He claimed there was a god, named off certain properties and attempted to use the universe as a metaphor for god and his arbitrary qualities. This is not acknowledgement of anything.

If you would get past your own ego and stop thinking YOU are all these things, you too may be humble enough to know that you are NOT all knowing, all powerful, ever present, and as gloriously good as the sum total of that there is.

I never claimed I was any of those things. Please do not put words in my mouth.

That is all it is about. The Awe of this existence.

I also have awe of existence. None of it requires making up a god and pretending that the universe is that god.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

If you would get past your own ego and stop thinking YOU are all these things, you too may be humble enough to know that you are NOT all knowing, all powerful, ever present, and as gloriously good as the sum total of that there is.

I never claimed I was any of those things. Please do not put words in my mouth.

Really? Then what is all knowing, all powerful, all present, and more glorious than yourself?

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

That is all it is about. The Awe of this existence.

I also have awe of existence. None of it requires making up a god and pretending that the universe is that god.

Again, it is just a word. You say Universe, others say God. That feeling of Awe you get, others call a connection with God.

Call it what YOU want, and let others call it what they want.

Do you want to be ridiculed for your choice of words? Then do not ridicule others.

This is why there is only ONE divine, natural, whatever, Law. That is to love one another.

We all have free will and we will all define our reality however we come to understand it. Arguing over what words we use is tantamount to arguing over what sounds (in this case text) we use to express ourselves. It is our damn bodies and our right to use what ever sounds we so damn choose to express our Awe at being.

It is silly, no it is even STUPID to argue over these things.

All sides of the argument God, Universe, Allah, YhWh, Nsambi Mpungo, whatever, are nothing more than a personal expression of ones experience and Awe.

Can't we just agree that we have an amazing existence and welcome each others concept of it without judgement?

What is so hard about that?

With Love,

Your Brother

Originally posted by sirnex
I don't get it. Where is the proof that the universe is all knowing given that to know something the universe must be a living intelligent entity with the capacity to experience and reflect upon those experience in which to gain knowledge of all things.

Looks more like wordplay than proof.

edit on 7-4-2011 by sirnex because: (no reason given)

The universe has to be to some extent all knowing or we wouldn't have such destruction and creation on such a massive scale!! Just because its figuratively speaking its wordplay to you!!! I call it proof because I have felt that we are gods in our own ways. I mean look at what we have done as humans on a creation level. We created our dogs of today through mix breeding! Look around realize that we are going to get recycled in the end just like every thing else in the universe!!!!!

Quantum entanglement could qualify as all knowing

I think the book Hitchhikers guide to the galaxy has it right. Just the plain simple existence of god, automatically negates his own existence. Plus it also brings up the saying I heard from an old lady, If god is all powerful then he can create a rock her can't lift, but if doing so he isn't all powerful and again negates himself.

I think we just need to believe and have the idea of god, I don't think there really is one just the thought. I would go into more detail about it but I will leave it at this.

With the advancement of physics and super string theory, for those who have researched it, you wouldn't get much disagreement from atheists or scientists with your first 3 claims. There is energy everywhere (if you want to call the energy 'god' that is your prerogative. That this energy is a powerful force in the universe, that connects all things. That it may be cyclical, and has never had a beginning or an end (i dont know, but its possible). Where you will get huge contradictions, and no evidence is your 4th point. The all knowing, suggesting that this form of energy has a conscious , and that it communicates with people, prayer and what not. where there is no reason or evidence to believe this is true. Science requires evidence, to supports theories and hypothesis. There is no evidence for a conscious personified source of energy that we call God. Certainly this energy exists, but to suggest that is has personified traits, and interacts, where is the evidence?

Originally posted by sirnex
I don't get it. Where is the proof that the universe is all knowing given that to know something the universe must be a living intelligent entity with the capacity to experience and reflect upon those experience in which to gain knowledge of all things.

Looks more like wordplay than proof.

edit on 7-4-2011 by sirnex because: (no reason given)

Don't you think a greater conscience than your own can exist in this Universe ?

it can

Originally posted by sirnex
I don't get it. Where is the proof that the universe is all knowing given that to know something the universe must be a living intelligent entity with the capacity to experience and reflect upon those experience in which to gain knowledge of all things.

Looks more like wordplay than proof.

edit on 7-4-2011 by sirnex because: (no reason given)

The universe is a living, intelligent entity with the capacity to experience and reflect.

We are the vessels through which the universe experiences itself, along with any other being. As a matter of fact, sentience is not limited to organic matter, we just haven't figured out how connected spirit is to body.

That said, you must understand that the universe is sentient because its contents are sentient. The cells of our bodies make up who we are. To reflect, the cells of our bodies make up who we are, and without them, our own intelligence would be non-existent.

So its really ALOT more than wordplay my friend.

Originally posted by LucidDreamer85

Originally posted by sirnex
I don't get it. Where is the proof that the universe is all knowing given that to know something the universe must be a living intelligent entity with the capacity to experience and reflect upon those experience in which to gain knowledge of all things.

Looks more like wordplay than proof.

edit on 7-4-2011 by sirnex because: (no reason given)

Don't you think a greater conscience than your own can exist in this Universe ?

it can

Yea, I think there could be some species out there that are more evolved than us within the universe. I don't think the universe itself is a living entity with the capacity of creative thought and ability to purposefully create itself and life within it. I also see no evidence that such an idea would even be true.