The Five Most Ruthless Police States in America

reply to post by MikeboydUS


IMO, selling drugs does not produce a victim, unless of course the buyer is a minor and the dealer is aware that the buyer is not of a mature enough age to give proper consent. So, the vast majority of drug crimes are actually victimless, unless of course force was initiated by the person in question (which would be rare). With that being said, many drug users do actually commit real crimes that do produce victims, though those are already crimes and speak for themselves.

However, not all "victimless crimes" are drug related. Some people are incarcerated for exercizing their "god-given" rights which are supposed to be protected by our Bill of Rights, such as the 1st Amendment protected right to assemble (for a single instance). Or, people arrested on tax-related "crimes". Also, parents who are arrested for parenting choices. These are just but a few of the politically based "crimes" that supposedly free American citizens are stripped of their liberty because of.

I'm pretty sure however that violent offenders do not make up 50 percent of incarcerated peoples in the United States.

As far as "stats", I believe that I have done a thread in the past that lists stats with the proper references. I don't have the time to look it up for the time being but the thread should be in my profile for anyone interested.

The point here is that liberty, the very idea of liberty, only works when the "criminal code" is self-evident and simple. You do not have liberty if you are persecuted for choices that do not initiate force on others.


--airspoon

reply to post by MikeboydUS


Here is an interesting perspective on that.
Does the United States lead the world in prison population?

Your skepticism is well-placed. The U.S. certainly doesn't have the highest incarceration rate in world history, and depending on whose figures you believe may not even have the highest rate now. However, to be honest, we're more competitive than you might care to hear.

According to the International Centre for Prison Studies at King's College London, the U.S. currently has the largest documented prison population in the world, both in absolute and proportional terms. We've got roughly 2.03 million people behind bars, or 701 per 100,000 population. China has the second-largest number of prisoners (1.51 million, for a rate of 117 per 100,000), and Russia has the second-highest rate (606 per 100,000, for a total of 865,000). Russia had the highest rate for years, but has released hundreds of thousands of prisoners since 1998; meanwhile the U.S. prison population has grown by even more. Rounding out the top ten, with rates from 554 to 437, are Belarus, Bermuda (UK), Kazakhstan, the Virgin Islands (U.S.), the Cayman Islands (UK), Turkmenistan, Belize, and Suriname, which you'll have to agree puts America in interesting company. South Africa, a longtime star performer on the list, has dropped to 15th place (402) since the dismantling of apartheid.

Anyone else notice the very bottom of the article in the OP where it breaks down the type of offenses people are incarcerated for? It is all you need to see to understand some of the policies that are in place.

The number 1 reason people are incarcerated according to the OP's article... a whooping 51% are drug offenses.

Originally posted by MrWendal
Anyone else notice the very bottom of the article in the OP where it breaks down the type of offenses people are incarcerated for? It is all you need to see to understand some of the policies that are in place.

The number 1 reason people are incarcerated according to the OP's article... a whooping 51% are drug offenses.

Keeping the competition off the streets, making it safe for big business. Any bets on how many folks vested in the prison industry also fight tooth and nail for tougher and tougher drug laws?

Originally posted by airspoon
Many people don't realize this but the US has more people incarcerated than any other nation (even most countries combined). We have more people behind bars than the USSR at the height of their reign or even Nazi Germany. Sadly, most of these people are incarcerated for what basically amounts to political crimes, "crimes" that do not produce a victim.



--airspoon

edit on 6-4-2011 by airspoon because: (no reason given)

Know why that is???
because here we have due process... in other words our citizens are entitled to a fair trial, not a summary execution in the streets, like we see in other nations....
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/7b1682654255.jpg[/atsimg]
Of course one could argue bullets are cheap compared to a life sentence

reply to post by Yankee451


It's not the police - it's the system. Prisoners are slave labor. Prison owners contract prisoners out as labor, taking jobs away from ordinary Americans to pad their own pockets. ...

S&F

reply to post by Yankee451


So could it be said that the current "Justice" system and penal system is specifically set up to funnel more money from the tax payer and get it into the pockets of large connected contracting firms who are responsible for paying lobbyists and giving political contributions?

reply to post by DaddyBare


I'm opposed to judging us based on what we aren't, I think we should judge ourselves based on what we can be, and what we are.

The redder the state the higher the prison population, hmm imagine that.

Notice the clear difference from blue state and red state prison populations? I bet these prisons are filled with minorities as well.

Originally posted by soficrow
reply to post by Yankee451

 

It's not the police - it's the system. Prisoners are slave labor. Prison owners contract prisoners out as labor, taking jobs away from ordinary Americans to pad their own pockets. ...

S&F

Agreed...

The police are our neighbors who have been subjected to more indoctrination, or are more easily indoctrinated. This might be why a certain IQ is desirable for police officers. Over time, the police have become the bill collectors for corporate America. As citizens it is our duty to reeducate them.

Originally posted by LDragonFire
The redder the state the higher the prison population, hmm imagine that.

Notice the clear difference from blue state and red state prison populations? I bet these prisons are filled with minorities as well.

It sure appears that the Incarceration Industry is preying on the most susceptible, most lucrative market.

Thing is hars punishments don't reduce crime. The condition of the society itself is what is most imporant factor imho. I'm Finnish and we're pretty nutorious for a leanient system. Even though we're 'soft' on crime it is not rampant here. Our prisons are comfortable and safe. Sentences are sometimes ridicilously light. Even for the harshest criminals. Still we have a low crime rate and justice isn't about revenge or punishment. It is about rehabilation and second changes.

reply to post by Jinglelord


...nations have no command over their governments, & in fact no influence over them, except of a fleeting & rather ineffectual sort.
- Letter to Baroness von Suttner, 17 February 1898

I think it is not wise for an emperor, or a king, or a president, to come down into the boxing ring, so to speak, and lower the dignity of his office by meddling in the small affairs of private citizens.
- Mark Twain in Eruption

The government of my country snubs honest simplicity, but fondles artistic villainy, and I think I might have developed into a very capable pickpocket if I had remained in the public service a year or two.
- Roughing It

That's the difference between governments and individuals. Governments don't care, individuals do.
- A Tramp Abroad

...no country can be well governed unless its citizens as a body keep religiously before their minds that they are the guardians of the law and that the law officers are only the machinery for its execution, nothing more.
- The Gilded Age

Gotta love Twain so very insightful....
but that was then this is the 21st century and to give you one of my quotes.... The new golden rule is:
He who has the gold makes the rules... dont like the rules we have now??? go get yourself some gold and change em

Originally posted by Jinglelord
reply to post by Yankee451

 

So could it be said that the current "Justice" system and penal system is specifically set up to funnel more money from the tax payer and get it into the pockets of large connected contracting firms who are responsible for paying lobbyists and giving political contributions?

Not just the justice system...INMO, the entire system exists to funnel more power and money back into the system. It exists to perpetuate itself.

I consider "civilization" as we know it to just be the evolution of slavery.

John Harris' video "It's an Illusion" touches on this theme...civilization is slavery, but so does another thread I have here which essentially states that since the dawn of civilization, our hierarchical form of civilization has been built and run by psychopaths.

Incarceration statitics, like most other statistics, is left up to interpretation and to be frank, which numbers you choose to believe, though maybe a little more so with this particular subject matter.

To suggest that Russia, at the height of the USSR had more incarcerated persons than the US today, is not entirely accurate, as most incarceration statistics of the USSR counted much more than just Russia, a single nation. Furthermore, the number of incarcerated persons seems to be different, depending on where you get your numbers. For instance, some sources only cite those who are convicted and serving out sentences, while other sources count anyone detained against their will by the government for suspicion of breaking the law, or conviction of the same. Then, there is also leeway as to whether people are incarcerated either in or by the state in question. There is also the statistical approach, whether the numbers are dispraportional or proportional (per capita).

Regardless, the incarceration statistics for the USSR are misleading, as they take into account prisoners who were incarcerated for reasons other than suspicion of breaking the law and conviction of the same. They also do not distinguish between persons incarcerated in or by a single state, such as those for the US.




--airspoon

The problem is 2 fold in this country when it comes to crime and the criminal population. The first part is the individual person. We all know what is right and wrong, as common sense and the law dictates that. No one made a person behind bars, hold up that store, steal, kill, do drugs or any other thing that would get them arrested in the USA. There was no one there holding a gun to their head, or threatening them to make them do the crime. However, the second part of this problem is society itself. Far too often, society often punishes a person who has done the time again, making it hard for them to actually leave that life behind. It is a viscous cycle and one that needs to stop. We as society need to be willing to give a person who has done their time and essentially paid their debt for the crimes that they committed a second chance and help them better themselves, by getting them a job to be gainfully employed, rather than leaving them to fend for themselves and watching, as in desperation that they turn and re-offend. The money made by the prison industry needs to go back into the prison system, rather than into the hands of the investors, that way it begins to cut the dependence off of the public dime.
The original concept of the penal system was a person convicted of a crime would go to a place to be locked up and do penance for the crimes that they committed. To serve out the time there and be rehabilitated, to return to society as a productive member of that society. However, back then, prisons and jails were a scary place to go, and that fear was what helped keep the crime rate down. But now days, the jails and prisons are no longer that scary and the fear is gone. Prisoners are more likely to get a better education and more physically fit in prison, than they would on the outside. The punishment is not there, save in a few states, where the luxuries are not there. The study does not look at the baseline cause, or how to reduce this down, rather it is just numbers.
On the part of drugs, the harsh reality is that the cost to help get a person off of drugs and help keep them off is far less than to incarcerate them. And there is no guarantee that once they go into prison, if they are convicted on narcotics charges, that they will get the help if not become more severely addicted to something worse, or learn a far worse skill.
Solutions are few and the cycle continues, the only real solution is that there needs to be a change not only in the penal system, but also in society at large. The penal system needs to revamp its codes, and determine what is and is not an offense that would warrant for a person to be put in jail. Society needs to change to where a person who has served time is given that second chance, and at the same time, think that if doing something will get a person sent to jail or prison, maybe no do such in the first place.

reply to post by airspoon


So you think distributors, who make up half of drug offenders, don't committ other crimes? Have you ever met a crack dealer or been to a meth lab? They arn't hillbillies with a potfarm.

The Bureau of Justice Statistics Bulletin (2008, its the latest on their site) facts: bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov...

The vast majority of US prisoners were in state prisons.
The vast majority were male. The majority of the males were black.
The five states with the highest prison populations:
1. Texas
2. California
3. Florida
4. New York
5. Michigan
Release rates were about half of the total prison population.
Violent crimes: 50.2 % Robbery 13.5% Murder 10.9% Assault 10.3%
Property crimes: 20.9% Burglary 10% Fraud 2.6%
Drug crimes: 20%

reply to post by SLAYER69


It appears we have the largest amount of documented prisoners. The article brings up an important point: undocumented prisoners, with some estimates in China being 5 to 10 times higher than the total US prison population.

Originally posted by Yankee451

Does anyone remember Eugen Hasenfus?

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/31e748abb474.jpg[/atsimg]

Yeah, I remember him. Those guys with guns surrounding him? Those are Sandinistas, in Nicaragua. What the hell has that got to do with the topic of YOUR thread? I though the topic was the five most incarcerating police states in America.

Are you using Sandinista Nicaragua as an example of the penultimate police state?

Are you agitating to make Nicaragua the 51st state?

Or are you derailing your own thread?

reply to post by MikeboydUS


I know...
I used the most politically biased article I could find and even it STILL made the distinction by implying "Documented vs Undocumented"