China tells US Pacific Command chief military contact with Taiwan must stop

Originally posted by jazzmaster
Please do not plagiarize what i said without my permission, it's really disrespectful.

I just used your hand to slap your face.

We are trying to protect Taiwan, helping it to declare its own independence and defend against China. ...Even the news of the launch of the first Chinese in space WAS NOT broadbast after it was successful.

What will you think if Chinese carriers are floating near Hawaii to protect and aid their movement to Independence from USA? What will you do then?

No one is declaring that China is superior in terms of technology or millitary. China is actually quite far behind both US and Russia.

The point I want to emphasize is that China has enough power to crush any force meddling in the core interest of China like Taiwan, including US. The worst case for China is that both US and China will be reduced to rubbles.

The risk of war is too much for China to take.

So you know the cost of US in such a war.

It is a shame then such thoughts of beheading people is acceptable to you.

If I cought anyone invading China and killing my brothers and sisters, I will kill them by piecing their flesh one by one with my own hand. Just ask youself, what will you do, if your love ones are killed or humilliated by invading or occupying forces. There is no excuse for invading another country.

Originally posted by namehere
china is in the wrong threatening nations like taiwan and other nations in
asia, china is the bad guy here, not america.

China is only determined to crush Taiwan Independence. Taiwan is not only belongs to people living in Taiwan, but also Chinese in Mainland. China is merely defending the territorial integrity and sovereignty. Anyone interfering this process will be enemy of all Chinese people.

Without Taiwan Independence, China is in no hurry to unify with Taiwan, and would like to allow both side to delevop peacefully.

i have taiwanese friends who clearly hates china and do want americans there.

Do you know the langauge he is speaking and writing? The opinion of a few can not determine the status of Taiwan, not even if all people in Taiwan were in agreement. Just like Canada, Quebec Independence also has to get the permision from the rest of all Canadian.

condemn america for our war in iraq, you chinese are hypocrits

Iraq is a sovereign nation recognized by all people in the world. Iraq has a sit in UN. Taiwan is not a nation, but a self-governed province of China. Is there a Taiwan Republic? Do you know the name of ROC?

cuba and the phillipenes used to be an american territory.what interest is taiwan to america? we have been there since the 40's before taiwan was even developed, what interests are you reffering to?[/

Yes, they used to be colonies to US. Do you know how many colony UK had before?

US is making lots of money by selling weapons.

no chinese will make it to land and our aircraft(navy and airforce) outnumber china by about 500 + aircraft, the sea will be an important area to win- china will be repelled.

Chinese supersonic and ballistic missiles will take out those ships dare to attack PLA. We can just wait and see.

A little perspective, please. First, despite zcheng's bombastic confidence in China's military forces, it really is foolish to underestimate US capabilities, of all countries. Secondly, I would point out that in invading Taiwan, across a water barrier, China would take a huge risk in that Taiwan is a well armed, highly motivated and alert adversary. Also, in a situation like this, the advantage is to the defender.

But the military picture is only part of the story... please think about the cost to China of this sort of military adventure. An aggressive China could only alarm all of its neighbours, and lead to its isolation. The economic consequences to China would be enormous.

Finally, why the sabre rattling to begin with? Why must Taiwan be subjugated by force? Is your imagination really so limited? Frankly, there is nothing so damning about the oppressive, despotic nature of China's leadership than the continuation of these tired old threats against Taiwan. Taiwan might actually be glad to rejoin the mainland - just as soon as the mainland becomes (permanently) an open, democratic, and free society.

Originally posted by AlexofSkye
it really is foolish to underestimate US capabilities, of all countries. China would take a huge risk. Also, in a situation like this, the advantage is to the defender.

It is my pleasure to debate with sensible arguments like you.

No one is underestimating the capability of US, and the ability for US to afflict great to China. We know US can nuke the whole planet for several times. What I tried to emphasize is the ability of China to destroy US in a all-out war.

I agree, there will be great losses on Chinese side, even if US is not attacking PLA directly and only secretly assisting Taiwan. The advantage in this case is with defender Taiwan.

The advantage of China is the massive missile capability and short distance from mainland China.

China is in no hurry to unify with Taiwan. China can wait. But if Taiwan is seeking or declaring Independence, it changes the matter completely. China will have no choice, but attack.

The loss of China may well exceed to over a decade of advancement we made in economy, etc. But to defend the integrity of China, it is well worth it. I would be proud to die in such a honorable cause.

Finally, why the sabre rattling to begin with? Why must Taiwan be subjugated by force?

Why US is sending 7 carriers to West Pacific? Why US is selling weapon to Taiwan and supporting Taiwan Independence?

Suppose Hawaii is seeking Independence, and China is supporting it, how will you feel, and how will US react?

Originally posted by zcheng
China is in no hurry to unify with Taiwan. China can wait. But if Taiwan is seeking or declaring Independence, it changes the matter completely. China will have no choice, but attack.

You say this evertime. Please explain why China must attack.

Finally, why the sabre rattling to begin with? Why must Taiwan be subjugated by force?

That is all they are left with. The government has realized that thier conduct in Hong kong and Tibet has convinced the Taiwanese that reunification may never be possible with the current and entrenched government. Despite the much talked about polls with on 15% supporting Independance, one has to wonder how the numbers would look if the figurative Chinese gun was not pointed to thier head.

Suppose Hawaii is seeking Independence, and China is supporting it, how will you feel, and how will US react?

Zcheng tries to use this argument everytime during the numerous debates. As I have pointed out in no less that 5 other threads, there is not a constiutional pathway for leaving the union. Nor does it forbid a state to do so. in the very unlikely event a state does want to leave the union, there would be court challanges etc but there seems to be nothing that could prevent that. The odds are for the time being is that we wont find out. The odds of Hawaii joining "your" paradise is about as much as monkeys flying out of my butt.

Ultimately, I believe China and Taiwan will reunite. The current state of separation seems temporary to me.

However, I am concerned about the belligerent direction things are taking. The least profitable and most disastrous course that China could follow would be to attempt to reclaim Taiwan by force.

It is akin to killing the goose that laid the golden eggs, and would spell nothing but grief and long misery for the people of China as well as Taiwan. Another civil war benefits no one.

China has a legitimate interest in Taiwan. By analogy if, in the wake of the U.S. Civil War, Florida remained independent and militarily supported by, say, Britain, Americans in general would probably not be too keen on that. Would Americans be averse to fighting Britain to reclaim Florida?

While not identical, the situation between China and Taiwan is similar. Because Taiwan represents a legacy of the Communist Revolution in China, emotions and ideology run at a particularly feverish pitch.

What drove Taiwan from China remains unresolved. Sadly, instead of seeking peaceful reconciliation, China and Taiwan seem to remain locked in a struggle that will probably become violent once again.

For my part, I am hopeful that the people who gave us Sun Tzu will heed the wisdom of his teachings. Perhaps war must resume, but only after all better possibilities are exhausted.

Why does China want such a small country anyway? How would it be of benefit to them, its isolated. Other than using it to intimidate Japan, Taiwan serves no purpose. I say let them be, they need to stop bothering the Taiwanese. The Rook takes the Queen!!!

Originally posted by TACHYON
Why does China want such a small country anyway? How would it be of benefit to them, its isolated. Other than using it to intimidate Japan, Taiwan serves no purpose. I say let them be, they need to stop bothering the Taiwanese. The Rook takes the Queen!!!

The bottom line as always MONEY. If Taiwan was say another bangladesh, do you think China would care? No, they want the modern manufacturing and infrastructure etc that Taiwan posseses. Thats why all of Zcheng's posturing is just an empty threat. Yes they can burn Taiwan down to bedrock, but then what? Not much use to them now.

Originally posted by TACHYON
Why does China want such a small country anyway? [...] I say let them be, they need to stop bothering the Taiwanese.

So if China were to take Hawaii and claim it as an "ally", then the U.S. should just "forget about it"?

It is easy enough to ask others to do what you would not do, but don't be surprised when they decline your "reasonable" offer.

Edit: Quote added.

[edit on 7/25/2004 by Majic]

Originally posted by Majic
So if China were to take Hawaii and claim it as an "ally", then the U.S. should just "forget about it"?

It is easy enough to ask others to do what you would not do, but don't be surprised when they decline your "reasonable" offer.

Taiwain from my understanding was a part of China(am I correct), its like Hawaii leaving on its own, not being invaded.

Originally posted by FredT
The bottom line as always MONEY. If Taiwan was say another bangladesh, do you think China would care?

Tibet has not exactly proven to be a cash cow, but that didn't seem to slow China down one bit.

I'm sure money is a factor, but it is by no means the only factor. There is a lot more riding on Taiwan than just extra income.

Originally posted by Majic
So if China were to take Hawaii and claim it as an "ally", then the U.S. should just "forget about it"? It is easy enough to ask others to do what you would not do, but don't be surprised when they decline your "reasonable" offer.

Hmmm are you suggesting that China invaded Hawaii? Im confused as to what you mean? If China attacks Hawaii as one of the Untied States, then they could expect reprisals. However, if Hawaii was independant and wanted to experience the personal liberty and freedom that China seems to offer her citizens then what of it? Its no different than if say Japan wanted to join China. If Hawaii is an Independant Country whats to stop it?

Room for the everexpanding population?

Originally posted by TACHYON
Taiwain from my understanding was a part of China(am I correct), its like Hawaii leaving on its own, not being invaded.

You may want to brush up on the history of the Communist Revolution and civil war in China. The U.S. was directly and heavily involved in making Taiwan what it is today.

Without the U.S., there would be no Taiwan. Period.

China has not forgotten this, and neither should anyone else, including the U.S.

Originally posted by Majic
Tibet has not exactly proven to be a cash cow, but that didn't seem to slow China down one bit.

Agreed, but Tibet does offer strategic advantages for China. It also acts a buffer so to speak with India. India with its huge population will eventually surpass Chinas, and may come looking for more room.

Originally posted by zcheng

Originally posted by jazzmaster
Please do not plagiarize what i said without my permission, it's really disrespectful.

I just used your hand to slap your face.

Even then you still could not manage to slap me right. You said:

(notice i quote your statement, take from me)"Notice the underlined word: US ships dare to attack PLA will rest in the bottom of Pacific. It would be either by missiles, which US has no defense over, or water mines, which will happen, or by subs, in which China has no defense either. "

You meant to say China has no defense over subs, water mines? Whose face are you trying to slap? Please those fancy metaphor only shows your true self.

Originally posted by Majic
Without the U.S., there would be no Taiwan. Period.
China has not forgotten this, and neither should anyone else, including the U.S.

Thank god that the US did support Chiang Kai-shek. You seem upset by the fact that the US supported the "rebels" as you term them against Mao and his brutal regime? I wonder if the people of China will ever forget the 30,000,000+ plus that the government that the Taiwanese fled killed during the "Cultural Revolution" or the "Greal Leap Backwards" Its good that you wont forget.

www.taiwandc.org...

Originally posted by zcheng

Second, I believe all invaders should be killed without any mercy.

US should stay out mud of Taiwan.

Err, you just said it yourself....invaders should be killed without mercy...
We did not go to Iraq to keep it, China wants to keep Taiwan.....two different purposes. You just agreed that if China invades Taiwan, "all invaders should be killed."

[edit on 25-7-2004 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by FredT
Agreed, but Tibet does offer strategic advantages for China. It also acts a buffer so to speak with India. India with its huge population will eventually surpass Chinas, and may come looking for more room.

Certainly, these were possible factors in China's decision to annex Tibet.

Likewise, Taiwan offers strategic advantages, while a lack of control over the island continues to be a major strategic thorn in China's side.

A great deal of Sino-American animosity stems directly from the situation with Taiwan. When I review U.S. policy surrounding Taiwan, I can understand it in the context of opposing the spread of Communism, but I can also understand quite well why China would hold a grudge.

We threatened to nuke them for crying out loud. Bitter memories of those dark times, and the open warfare between China and the U.S. in Taiwan and Korea, remain to this day. Both our nations lost a lot of good people in those wars, and they should not be forgotten.

I could probably fill several books with descriptions of my disagreements with the Chinese government on all sorts of things. I also correspond with people in Taiwan and deeply understand why so many Taiwanese oppose reunification with China. There is plenty of grief to go around.

With all that in mind I am unable, however, to condemn China for wanting to reunify with Taiwan and for opposing, even perhaps with violence, any attempts to make the separation with Taiwan permanent.

Originally posted by FredT
Thank god that the US did support Chiang Kai-shek. You seem upset by the fact that the US supported the "rebels" as you term them against Mao and his brutal regime? I wonder if the people of China will ever forget the 30,000,000+ plus that the government that the Taiwanese fled killed during the "Cultural Revolution" or the "Greal Leap Backwards" Its good that you wont forget.

www.taiwandc.org...

I am familiar with the history of Taiwan and the Communist Revolution, and can count relatives lost in Korea. I am also no fan of Communism or any of its foul and mendacious variants.

For the record, I am not upset that the U.S. supported Chiang, I am upset that we didn't follow through and allowed China to fall to Communism. But that opportunity was lost decades ago, and clinging to the idea today is nothing more than folly.

I know all too well about the genocides resulting from Communism in China as well as in Russia and pretty much everywhere Marxism has infected nations. I am not a fan of the current regime in China and would like to see it change. You are preaching to the choir.

What I am attempting to encourage is not revisionism but perspective. The situation between China and Taiwan has been drawn out over the years but remains unresolved. The idea of aiding Taiwan to overthrow Communism in China is long past any possible hope of implementation. Thus the problem must be addressed in light of the way things actually are, not how they might have been, and preferably with reason instead of bluster and saber-rattling (*cough* *cough*).

It is clear that Taiwan will not peaceably rejoin China unless there are some fundamental changes in China and in its policies toward Taiwan. Legitimate and serious differences exist, and must be resolved.

I do not, never have and never will support a forced reunification of Taiwan with China. However, I can understand why China might see things differently. There is a difference between understanding and agreement.

If steps are taken to win recognition of Taiwan as an independent nation with U.N. recognition, treaties, etc., I can see where China would have a problem with that, and why they may be willing to use violent means to prevent it. Once that threshold is crossed, any effort at reunification can be considered lost.

I support the rights of the people of Taiwan and China to self-determination, but that is a sword that cuts both ways. Foreign intervention is not self-determination, no matter how much you want to "help" (that applies to Iraq, as well, but let's keep that to other threads).

That's the way I see it, and of course I expect people to agree or disagree with my assessment as they see fit. But there it is.