Bible Answers to Member Questions

reply to post by jmdewey60

So you are looking to self-fulfilling prophecy to find something to believe in.
Real prophecy that was in the OT was fulfilled in Jesus.

Nope.
I am just referring to what the Old Testament speaks about.
You know, the same old testament which christians refer to whenever they need to prove a "prophecy".

Anything connected to a current "state" calling itself, Israel, is purely satanic in origin, in my opinion.

A mistake which many christians make is relate biblical prophecy to the modern day state of Israel.
Many are under the assumption that the modern day state of Israel is on the side of "good" while everybody else are about to be punished.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n
Never mind.
Seems I keep making false assumptions about where you are going with your posts.
I should have read the post you link to in your signature.

You two through now?

By the way Scop, great question! Glad you know some of the more wild verses in the Bible (there are tons more...)

Anyway, I'll look into, can't right now cause I'm busy, just wanted you too know I'm on the case!! Check back in a day or two. I know the answer right now but its quite a read....or write for me.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

In that day there will be a highway from Egypt to Assyria. The Assyrians will go to Egypt and the Egyptians to Assyria. The Egyptians and Assyrians will worship together. In that day Israel will be the third, along with Egypt and Assyria, a blessing on the earth. The LORD Almighty will bless them, saying, “Blessed be Egypt my people, Assyria my handiwork, and Israel my inheritance.” -Isaiah 19:23-25

1. How do you interpret that bit in Isaiah which teaches that Israel will be a "third" with Egypt and Assyria, both of which are modern day muslim nations?

I had this discussion some time ago on another forum, and someone explained the future friendship between these countries as a result of Israel, Egypt and Assyria converting to chistianity.

Just wanted to hear your opinion/perspective on this on this.

You picked quite a question, one of the best thus far! Isa 19:23-25 is a complete mystery to most Bible scholars and teachers (which is no surprise as most of them don't even believe they have the words of God to begin with), but this verse is pretty easy to understand if you compare it with other scriptures in like context.

Isa 19:23
"23 In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians."

First of all you must determine what the HIGHWAY is?

ISAIAH 11
"16 And there shall be an HIGHWAY for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt."

"ISAIAH 35
8 And an HIGHWAY shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein."

"ISAIAH 40
3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a HIGHWAY for our God."
(this didn't happen when Jesus came. It could have if the Jews would have accepted Him as Messiah, but they did not, so this verse will be fulfilled during the second advent.)

"ISAIAH 62
10 Go through, go through the gates; prepare ye the way of the people; cast up, cast up the HIGHWAY; gather out the stones; lift up a standard for the people. "

The Bible explanation is clear, it is a straight road that will lead directly to Jerusalem, and all the nations of the world will have to travel via this road to worship Jesus Christ sitting on His throne in Jerusalem during the Millennium. This also alludes to a large amount of our oceans drying up to make more land as was before Noah's flood, but that's another topic.

Now look at the word SERVE in the last part of verse 23. This is the nations of the world, including Egypt and Assyria SERVING the Jews in Israel during the millennium. This is clear from verses later on in the same book:

Isaiah 60:10-12
10 And the sons of strangers shall build up thy walls, and their kings shall minister unto thee: for in my wrath I smote thee, but in my favour have I had mercy on thee.
11 Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought.
12 For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted.

This is because Jesus Christ just defeated the whole planet through military conquest. Now the world serves Him, by serving His people, the Jews. This is all Bible so far, I have not put one opinion in the mix, yet

Next is verse 24:
"24 In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land:"

This is not saying Israel is third in rank or title, this is showing a land division as clearly seen with the last part of this verse: "even a blessing in the midst of the land" For as anyone knows, Egypt is the western boundary of Israels promised land as found in:

Gen 15:18
"In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates: "

With Assyria being the eastern boundary of Israels land, representing the river Euphrates as mentioned above ↑.

Next we have verse 25:
"25 Whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance."

This is the easiest verse. I am running out of space so you will have to read the next few verses on your own:

Zechariah 10:8-12 and 14:17-21 But I must post verse 17 for everyone

"17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain."

Ezra 6:22 (read) Proverbs 21:1

KJV1611, you stated:

This is because Jesus Christ just defeated the whole planet through military conquest. Now the world serves Him, by serving His people, the Jews. This is all Bible so far, I have not put one opinion in the mix, yet

[end quote]

Are you so sure that this is not just opinion? The whole matter rests on just who the "Jews" are. It it not enough to simply point to the group of people who call themselves Jews today, and say, "Yup, that's them." I recall from the same source you draw on, that most of the tribe of Judah never went back to Palestine after the Exile, and they, in turn, were only a fraction of Israel. Most Jews today are not even Shemites, let alone Heberites/Hebrews. I would not care to be a servant of these people.

reply to post by Lazarus Short


You will not be a servant of the desendants of Jacab (God knows who they are, we don't). Christians right now in our age of grace will be "far from human" serving only God Himself.

Besides, we (if you are saved, I am assuming you are) are not of the world, nor of the nations in it (gentiles). We are the bride of Christ, sons of God, and we will be kings and princes during the millenium.

As for eternity, that is where things really get strange. I'm sure you are aware of what I am talking about. God the father has His bride, which is the adulterious Israel, who God will regather and heal AFTER the tribulation (not before as we have now in Israel). And Jesus Christ has His bride, which is the VIRGIN bride of Christ. Two seperate enities here.

Chrisitains are not Israel and Israel's promises do not apply to us. Israel are not Christians, and our promises do not apply to them. RIghtly divide the words of God you know What you think? I can show VERY good proof from the scriptures for what I just said...BUT, I am not ruling out a different interpretation. Things could be different but the Bible lines up with what I just said almost indisbutably

reply to post by KJV1611

This is not saying Israel is third in rank or title, this is showing a land division as clearly seen with the last part of this verse: "even a blessing in the midst of the land" For as anyone knows, Egypt is the western boundary of Israels promised land as found in:

I understand the verse in Isaiah is in no way, reducing Israel to rank #3.
I would like to point out that Israel is only 1/3rd of the Assyria+Egypt+Israel coalition....and that too with regions that are currently "muslim".

That verse in Isaiah is not talking merely about Israel bordering Assyria and Egypt... but goes on to reveal that Assyria and Egypt(both modern day muslim nations) will be held in high esteem by God. Egypt is called "His people" and Assyria is "the work of His hands". This is what is quite puzzling to me...and of course, other christians

Why do you think God partnered Israel with modern day Islamic countries instead of with, say, christian countries.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

I understand the verse in Isaiah is in no way, reducing Israel to rank #3.
I would like to point out that Israel is only 1/3rd of the Assyria+Egypt+Israel coalition....and that too with regions that are currently "muslim".

There will be nor is there any such "coalition" between these countries in verse 23. It is merly laying out the land format as Gen 15:18 shows. But I do see what you are saying about verse 25.

That verse in Isaiah is not talking merely about Israel bordering Assyria and Egypt... but goes on to reveal that Assyria and Egypt(both modern day muslim nations) will be held in high esteem by God. Egypt is called "His people" and Assyria is "the work of His hands". This is what is quite puzzling to me...and of course, other christians

These two countries will be held in high esteem as you said IF!!!!! they follow:

Zech 14:16-21
"16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

works based salvation in the millennium. ↑

17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

Conditions placed on obedience.

18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen (known as muslim nations as you said) that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. (works)
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD's house shall be like the bowls before the altar.

Show the Jerusalem temple will be rebuilt...so long dome of the rock....

21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice (works) shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite (palestinians..trace their history, they are the canaanites)) in the house of the LORD of hosts." (racism on the part of the Lord...I say Amen)

You see, its completely conditional based on how these countries treat Israel and if they come and worship before Jesus Christ in Jerusalem as the above verses show.

Why do you think God partnered Israel with modern day Islamic countries instead of with, say, christian countries.

God will restore Israel after the tribulation. What you have in Israel now is no doubt the hand of God working, but they are most certainly not the restored Israel of the Second advent. Besides, Christians and Jews are enemies theologically, but are friends spiritual.
With that said, there will be no other religions once Jesus Christ is King in Jerusalem...if there are, they will be killed. The world will serve and worship God PHYSICALLY, not spiritual. No more faith....now all sight.

reply to post by KJV1611

These two countries will be held in high esteem as you said IF!!!!! they follow: ....

Then by the same standard, Israel also will do fine, only IF they follow the decrees of God.
They are in no way exempt from judgement. All prophecies depend on a big "IF". You know, considering that bit about Jesus saying God can take lifeless rocks and create descendants for Abraham.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


hold on now, I never said Israel would be exempt. They too must follow the law of the millennium ( Found in Matthew 5-7 sermon on the mount, etc) If they do not, they also will die. Everyone, Jew and Gentile will be following the rule of Jesus Christ on the throne at Jerusalem, ruling with a rod of Iron...as the King of the JEWS mind you. Plus Israel will accept Jesus Christ as their Messiah then (as if they have a choice) The Jews killed Him during his first coming, they will worship Him during His second. Tons of scripture to back this up...tons!

Christians on the other hand...will be doing something far different....I don't even understand it fully!

reply to post by KJV1611

This is because Jesus Christ just defeated the whole planet through military conquest. Now the world serves Him, by serving His people, the Jews. This is all Bible so far, I have not put one opinion in the mix, yet

This is pure opinion and none of this I just quoted is "Bible".

reply to post by jmdewey60


Please stop you poor ignorant Bible babe, you are embarrassing yourself

Isaiah 60:9-12
"9 Surely the isles shall wait for me, and the ships of Tarshish first, to bring thy sons from far, their silver and their gold with them, unto the name of the LORD thy God, and to the Holy One of Israel, because he hath glorified thee.
10 And the sons of strangers shall build up thy walls, and their kings shall minister unto thee: for in my wrath I smote thee, but in my favour have I had mercy on thee.
11 Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought.
12 For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted."

14 The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee; The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.
15 Whereas thou has been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through thee, I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations.

TONS more:

Isaiah 61:1-11
"1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.
4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.
5 And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.
6 But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves. 7 For your shame ye shall have double; and for confusion they shall rejoice in their portion: therefore in their land they shall possess the double: everlasting joy shall be unto them.
8 For I the LORD love judgment, I hate robbery for burnt offering; and I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them.
9 And their seed shall be known among the Gentiles, and their offspring among the people: all that see them shall acknowledge them, that they are the seed which the LORD hath blessed.
10 I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.
11 For as the earth bringeth forth her bud, and as the garden causeth the things that are sown in it to spring forth; so the Lord GOD will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations. "

This is only two chapters worth. There are hundreds more just like this. You are making a fool of yourself saying otherwise.

reply to post by KJV1611
If you were a Jew, all that would be just fine (to believe, though you would be holding a false belief).
We Christians don't buy that, and understand the promises given to the now defunct people of Israel have met their fulfillment in Jesus through whom we receive adoption, to have those things as an inheritance.
The former people going by the name, Israel, were cut off and removed from the grace of God, to have that grace come to men through Jesus.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by KJV1611

 

If you were a Jew, all that would be just fine (to believe, though you would be holding a false belief).
We Christians don't buy that, and understand the promises given to the now defunct people of Israel have met their fulfillment in Jesus through whom we receive adoption, to have those things as an inheritance.
The former people going by the name, Israel, were cut off and removed from the grace of God, to have that grace come to men through Jesus.

I half agree with both you and KJV. Yes, God divorced Israel and Judah, the two sisters who were His wives. Yes, God Himself portrayed Himself as a bigamist in order to make a point. He further kicked them out of the house, and sent them packing. On the other hand, God has been looking over true Israel for all these centuries, and will soon take Israel (including true Judah) back as His wife forever, for He loves Israel. I am not talking about the Jews here, or the country they have stolen and misnamed - they will take their rightful place with the Goat nations, not the Sheep nations.

reply to post by KJV1611


Thanks for sharing your view on my previous question... I guess I can end that discussion about Egypt+Assyria+Israel here.

however you raised another interesting point with regard to the returning Jesus.

Plus Israel will accept Jesus Christ as their Messiah then (as if they have a choice) The Jews killed Him during his first coming, they will worship Him during His second.

I recall you (or was it somebody else?) saying that when Jesus returns, things are going to get real bad immediately with millions dying everywhere. So how exactly do you suppose Israel even gets time to accept Jesus when he comes back during the end times?

If they have rejected Jesus who was sent to them personally, for 2000 years... then what would cause the jews do a 180 degree turn and accept him?

reply to post by Lazarus Short

Sorry to see you have given up Christianity.
You have to toss out the New Testament to believe all that since Christianity is based on the teaching of Paul and he was the one who pointed out how the Jews as representing symbolically, the remnant of Israel, were cut off and the road for them to God is exactly the same road that everyone else has to go down.
"God so loved the world" is what replaced the love for those who turned their backs on Him, and killed His son.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

I recall you (or was it somebody else?) saying that when Jesus returns, things are going to get real bad immediately with millions dying everywhere.

It was probably me you recall ↑ Anywhoo...

So how exactly do you suppose Israel even gets time to accept Jesus when he comes back during the end times?
If they have rejected Jesus who was sent to them personally, for 2000 years... then what would cause the jews do a 180 degree turn and accept him?

That my friend is VERY easy to explain:

Zechariah 12:8-11
8 In that day (the day of the Lord, or Second Advent when Jesus returns) shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. (one of hundreds of verses just like this one. Jesus will literally KILL all the nations that hate the Jews.)
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: (READ CAREFULLY HERE!!!) and THEY (the jews) SHALL LOOK upon me whom they have pierced (the jews killed Jesus by crucifixion via Rome), and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, (Jesus was the Son of Man, the son of Jews...) and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. (where the battle of Armageddon takes place)

So you see, the Jews don't really have a choice in the matter. Think about it....The Jews that are suffering during the tribulation with there people being hunted down and killed every day, foreshadowed by Hitler, Spain, and 3000 years of Jew killing history. They then see Their God (Jesus) riding through the freaking sky on a white horse so BIG that the whole world can see Him. He then KILLs all of Israel's enemies and sets up shop as the King of The Jews in Jerusalem............Would you doubt any more if you were a Jew and saw all this???? I wouldn't....I would be scared out of my mind and would have no choice but to fall before MY KING THAT MY OWN PEOPLE KILLED and cry and beg for mercy. Which is what you find in verse 11 ↑ And of course, Jesus gives them mercy and saves them all as a NATION, not individually.

Romans 11:25-27
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery[/]b, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

This is where jmdewey60 keeps screwing up scripturaly. You must take the scriptures as a whole and then rightly divide them. If you don't you get over 2,000 different "Christian" sects and cults. You can thank the useless New bible perversions for most of the newer cults.

Yes the Jews right now are sinful and pieces of trash JUST like any other Gentile. But one day God will take them back. The reason jmdewey60 and many others can't understand this is because God has blinded it from their eyes and it is a "mystery" to them as verse 25 of Romans 11 says.

Remember, the Holy Spirit is the true interpreter of Scripture. So if someone can't understand these easy verses, its not there thought. God just refuses to show it to people that doubt His words. (much less those who don't even believe we have God's written words)

reply to post by jmdewey60


P.s. jmdewey60, care to explain this away, or do you just ignore it?

Romans 11:25-27
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.


Maybe it was a mistranslation.....or maybe you could translate it better for us...or maybe this is just Paul speaking so it doesn't matter.... Can't wait to hear which one of these excuses you will use

reply to post by KJV1611

Zechariah 12:8-11 NETBible translation
On that day the Lord himself will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so that the weakest among them will be like mighty David, and the dynasty of David will be like God, like the angel of the Lord before them. So on that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.”
“I will pour out on the kingship of David and the population of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication so that they will look to me, the one they have pierced. They will lament for him as one laments for an only son, and there will be a bitter cry for him like the bitter cry for a firstborn. On that day the lamentation in Jerusalem will be as great as the lamentation at Hadad-Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo.

In the Septuagint, where it has here, "who they pierced", it has the Greek word κατωρχησαντο, which is a completely different word as what is in the Greek text of the Gospel of John, in chapter 19, verse 27 , which is ἐξεκέντησαν.
The base for the Greek word in John 19:27 means, to prick. Another interpretation could be, to goad. So you could picture in you mind, the victim encircled by a crowd of people poking him in the back with a sharp stick, every way he turned, to provoke him to lash out, and thus give them pretense to all jump on him and pummel him to death.
The Septuagint Greek word is not in the NT so not so easy to find a definition. I can look at the NETS translation of the Septuagint and see how they translate the word in Zechariah. It says, ". . .and they shall look at me because they have danced triumphantly."
"They treated me despitefully", is how it is translated in: Interlinear Greek Old Testament Septuagint, by Joshua Dickey
I am looking at an older, out of print translation, just called, The Septuagint version of the Old Testament, which translates it, 'Mocked'.
There seems to be another controversy involving this verse which has to do with whether the pronoun which is the object of the verb, looked upon, is Him, or, Me. This is because the Dead Sea Scroll version is different from the Masoretic Text.
The Septuagint says, Me, as in, 'they looked on me, who they had. . .', or, 'they looked upon me because they. . .'. In the Greek, it looks more in favor of "because", which is more in line with the NETS translation, where the story actually makes sense to think of these people being granted this pouring out of strength, to where they danced for joy, and to praise the one who they recognized as the one so good as to bestow upon them this gift.
Now that makes that one clause make sense internally but you find it not making sense in a general way, being in the middle of some rather negative sounding sentences.
When you look at the Hebrew text of verse 10 you see the word used, daqar, which from what I see, is denotative of a situation which is ultimately lethal. So, someone is dying, and I don't see any way to get around that, if you are going by only the Hebrew, and ignoring the Greek (which may not be the best idea, if you are trying to figure out what Greek speaking people in the First Century were thinking. Then, the Him / Me ambiguity can come into play, where the inhabitants of Jerusalem are happy, or sad, on account of someone other than Jehovah (or whoever). The sadness motif seems primary in this passage so it might be good to look at who could be the one mourned over. The clue could be a deliberate ambiguity built into the copying of the ancient texts in their religiously motivated zeal to obscure the names of other gods. Now I will bring up this part of the passage I quoted at the top of the post:
". . . the lamentation at Hadad-Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo."
Wikipedia has an article on Hadad where this phrase comes up. It mentions the theory that the name in this prophecy of Zechariah is a corruption of the god-name, Hadad.

The word Hadad-rimmon, for which the inferior reading Hadar-rimmon is found in some manuscripts in the phrase "the mourning of (or at) Hadad-rimmon" (Zechariah 12:2), has been a subject of much discussion. According to Jerome and all the older Christian interpreters, the mourning is for something that occurred at a place called Hadad-rimmon (Maximianopolis) in the valley of Megiddo. The event alluded to was generally held to be the death of Josiah (or, as in the Targum, the death of Ahab at the hands of Hadadrimmon). But even before the discovery of the Ugaritic texts some suspected that Hadad-rimmon might be a dying god like Adonis or Tammuz, perhaps even the same as Tammuz, and the allusion could then be to mournings for Hadad such as those which usually accompanied the Adonis festivals.

en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Lazarus Short

 

Sorry to see you have given up Christianity.
You have to toss out the New Testament to believe all that since Christianity is based on the teaching of Paul and he was the one who pointed out how the Jews as representing symbolically, the remnant of Israel, were cut off and the road for them to God is exactly the same road that everyone else has to go down.
"God so loved the world" is what replaced the love for those who turned their backs on Him, and killed His son.

edit on 8-10-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

Maybe I'm a bit slow, but explain how my views on God taking Israel as a wife, divorcing Israel/Judah, and (still future) taking Israel back means that I have given up on Christianity. I think you are talking about salvation, and on that level, you are correct, but there is more going on here. You have fallen right into the trap I tried to mark as "don't go there," and by that I mean the failure to distinguish between Israel, Judah, and the Jews. They are not equivalent. Oy! Too many Christians can not even clearly distinguish between spirit and soul.